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Starman · Apr 25, 2006, 08:46 PM

If punishing crime via torture is wrong for humans how can it be thought to be right for God?

Addendum:

Let me say that the only reason I posted it was to get an honest opinion to this seeming paradox of people condemning humans who torture and praising a God they feel sends people to be tortured. I also posted it because a defamation of God's character should be defended against by anyone who claims to be a Christian or anyone else who loves God. I consider the accusation that God created a place of torture to send the disobedient an insult to God. An idea which depicts him as sadistic. Now, to remain silent in the face of such a depiction is to cooperate with the defamation via silence. Therefore, when I posted this thread, I assumed that those who say they love God would take it as an opportunity to come out in his defense by disproving the accusation either scripturally or via logic.

Krs · Apr 26, 2006, 02:23 AM

Who said its right for God?

fredg · Apr 26, 2006, 04:34 AM

Hi,
I don't understand, either, "being right for God".

RickJ · Apr 26, 2006, 05:15 AM

God calls us to Respect Human Life. Torture violates that. I might anticipate the next question: What is torture? Unfortunately we do not have God's laundry list of what is torture and what is not...

Krs · Apr 26, 2006, 05:33 AM

Some of us humans don't respect human life and torture it. We violate each other just because we have different beliefs.
That's not love nor religion to me.

Starman · Apr 26, 2006, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Krs

who said its right for God?

Certain denominations say so. When I was a child there was a very religious woman who regularly visited us in order to encourage church attendance and would always vehemently warn that God would send us to be tortured forever in a lake of fire if we didn't. She was very graphic in her description telling us to imagine the pain of a burning finger but over our whole body and magnified hundreds of time with no mercy being shown for our eternal screams of agony and please for help.

NeedKarma · Apr 26, 2006, 09:50 AM

Ok, she was a bad lady. I hope that didn't affect you too much. You forever doubt yourself when that is drilled into you.

Starman · Apr 26, 2006, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Ok, she was a bad lady. I hope that didn't affect you too much. You forever doubt yourself when that is drilled into you.

She was sincere in her belief and honestly wanted to help us and to please God. Strangely, my parents were never cowed into attending church due to fear of the torture she described. Me? I had been taught differently by someone who understood the Bible in a different way from the way she understood it so her words didn't affect me at all. However, I agree with you that such a belief can have a profound effect. I imagine that some individuals might be terrified into a life dedicated to avoiding getting into the situation she described. What puzzles me about this is that such persons would never punish their own children or anyone else in the way they describe God as doing yet they feel perfectly comfortable worshipping a being that they believe does approve of it for those that dare dosobey him.

phillysteakandcheese · Apr 26, 2006, 07:08 PM

Sending someone to hell... Would that be a form of torture..

31pumpkin · Apr 26, 2006, 07:40 PM

" Who falls in to that burning ring of Fire....Down, down, down....."

That's why it says in the Bible- Seek the Lord while He still can be found. (while one is still alive!)

Krs · Apr 27, 2006, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by Starman

Certain denominations say so. When I was a child there was a very religious woman who regularly visited us in order to encourage church attendance and would always vehemently warn that God would send us to be tortured forever in a lake of fire if we didn't. She was very graphic in her description telling us to imagine the pain of a burning finger but over our whole body and magnified hundreds of time with no mercy being shown for our eternal screams of agony and please for help.

As if...
God won't certainly punish you for not believing or following. God loves us as individuals regardless of our choices we make.

Starman · Apr 27, 2006, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by phillysteakandcheese

Sending someone to hell... Would that be a form of torture... ?

It depends on what you understand as "hell." If your understanding is that it is a place where people suffer either temporarily or for eternity, then its torture since torture is the infliction of pain. In any case, a definition helps:

Merriam Webster's Dictionary
Main Entry: 1tor·ture
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'to r-ch&r
Etymology: French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquere to twist; probably akin to Old High German drAhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

BTW
There's this fellow who claims that he lowered a microphone into a deep crevasse and recorded the screams of agony emanating from hell. He placed the recording on the Internet. Weird!

Starman · Apr 27, 2006, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

" Who falls in to that burning ring of Fire....Down, down, down....."

That's why it says in the Bible- Seek the Lord while He still can be found. (while one is still alive!)

HI Pumpkin! Thanks for the feedback.
Since you seem to agree that God has a right to torture us if we misbehave, and since I am sure that you consider God righteous and righteous behavior should be imitated, then we would not be sinning if we imitated God and tortured our kids? Now my question to you is of course rhetorical since I'm sure that you will not recommend such a thing. Which brings us back to the quandary of my original question which is how do people who approve of God torturing sentient intelligent creatures harmonize their condemnation of humans who use torture as punishment? Just curious.

BTW
I am familiar with the biblical references used to support the God tortures concept. Not all Christians undertsand them the same way. I prefer the alternate understanding.

NeedKarma · Apr 27, 2006, 07:54 AM

I've misbehaved yet never been tortured. I wonder what that means.

Starman · Apr 27, 2006, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Ok, she was a bad lady. I hope that didn't affect you too much. You forever doubt yourself when that is drilled into you.

I agree with you as well, NeedKarma except for the saying she is or was bad. You see besides this particular belief, she led a Christian life. So how am I to tilt my opinion of her toward the negative based on one belief based on her misunderstanding? Would God destroy her because she misuderstands?

BTW
I thank everyone for the feedback to my post.

Starman · Apr 27, 2006, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Krs

As if..........
God wont certainly punish you for not believing or following. God loves us as individuals regardless of our choices we make.

Hebrews 12:6 tells us that discipline or punishment per se is not wrong. We punish our children in order to help them be better persons and God does likewise. The problerm is that the eternal punishment with no way out concept has no such goal. It is described an infliction of pain for pain's sake and that is what offends many.

BTW

I recently saw the film the Birdman of Alcactraz and his punishment seemed to fall under this category since those doing the punishing seemed to be punishing without any hopes of improving him as a human being.

NeedKarma · Apr 27, 2006, 08:06 AM

I'm sticking with the 'bad' label and here's why. I believe that religion is a personal thing. With her laying the 'fear of God" in such a way to innocent children she has the capacity, as a perceived authority figure, to instill some personality traits in the children that may not be desirable in the medium to long term.

That's my opinion. I certainly don't want my own children fearing every move they make.

Starman · Apr 27, 2006, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I'm sticking with the 'bad' label and here's why. I believe that religion is a personal thing. With her laying the 'fear of God" in such a way to innocent children she has the capacity, as a perceived authority figure, to instill some personality traits in the children that may not be desirable in the medium to long term.

That's my opinion. I certainly don't want my own children fearing every move they make.

The reason that I choose to withhold judgement in respect to her status with God is that her behavior is based on ignorance. In my view God takes note of ignorance when classifying someone as either evil or good. Also, her faith in the Ransom sacrifice Jesus gave for our sins would still give her an imputed righteousness--correct?

NeedKarma · Apr 27, 2006, 08:26 AM

I have no clue as to what "imputed righteousness" is, my concern is for the children so I guess I can't answer the question, sorry.

Starman · Apr 27, 2006, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I have no clue as to what "imputed righteousness" is, my concern is for the children so I guess I can't answer the question, sorry.

I can now understand your viewpoint better since you are looking at the woman primarily from a sociological perspective and not one based on the religious precepts of Christianity. Actually, inculcating wrong ideas into the mind of a child is considered a form of child abuse and is punishable by law according to its severity. Perehaps a license should e required for parenthood. But I guess that's another subject.

About imputed righteousness:
Christians believe that we only gain a righteous status before God based on Jesus having died for our sins. So when we sin, we are forgiven in his name and can be looked upon as righteous in his name. In short, our status before God is not earned it is a free gift.