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    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #1

    Apr 20, 2006, 06:50 AM
    Illegal aliens
    With over 10 million illegal aliens in the U.S who is to blame and how would you solve this problem?:cool:
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
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    #2

    May 14, 2006, 10:31 PM
    I would solve it by legalizing them and letting them earn a living in peace. : )

    BTW
    Poverty and the lure of a solution are to blame.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #3

    May 15, 2006, 05:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Starman
    I would solve it by legalizing them and letting them earn a living in peace. : )
    I tend to agree,but here in Texas most of the legal Mexicans resent the fact that they had to go for years to get the citizenship. I don't know if amnesty would be fair to those who chose to go through the system. But on the other hand how can you deny a poor person willing to work a chance to feed themselves and give their children a better life? President Bush is sending troops to the border but the door has been open for so long, how is he going to deal with the 10 million already here? I personally think it has been the intention of the government(NOT JUST BUSH) to exploit these people for cheap labor anyway. There are many getting rich off the backs of illegals and I absolutely think this should stop.:cool:
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    #4

    May 16, 2006, 09:50 PM
    Coming here to work is one thing and that is fine.. what drives me absolultey insane is the hundreds of thousands on welfare that can not speak a word of english that stand in front of you in the grocery store with their 5 kids and pregnant using foodstamps to buy steak!
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    wizzkid89 Posts: 243, Reputation: 63
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    #5

    May 17, 2006, 04:32 PM
    It's hard to tell the aliens, that they can't come to this country and make a life for them self. However, we need to stop them doing it illegally, we would never have that many immigrants here if they didn't come illegally because there are immigration quotas that keep that in check. I live in California, and it's a melting pot out here of white,black,latino, asian and what not. It was definitely a transition from when I moved out here from the midwest. I think in all respects it's a good idea to stop the aliens from coming over, because we can forget this is happening and just turn our backs but eventually and I think it already has happened, that it will run out of control and poverty will only increase to the point where the majority of Americans are affected by it. I'm not saying ship them back, or never let anymore in, just finally the U.S. government should start regulating it better and adjust the influx of immigrants based on what our economy needs.
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
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    #6

    May 18, 2006, 12:26 AM
    Its good to keep a balanced viewpoint when it comes to subjects like this which can tend to become unbalanced and propagate harmful misconception which can motivate harassment.

    USATODAY.com - Center ties hate crimes to border debate
    Tension over illegal immigration is contributing to a rise in hate groups and hate crimes across the nation, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. It says that racist groups are using the immigration debate as a rallying cry.. . against the wishes of law enforcement. One of those groups is American Border Patrol.. .
    USATODAY.com - Center ties hate crimes to border debate


    USATODAY.com - Hispanic-owned businesses are ready to spend
    Greg Cortez, founder of a San Antonio tech consulting company, is in a business spending mood.. .
    There are 1.2 million Hispanic-owned firms in the USA — about one of every 16 companies...
    url=http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2004-05-06-hispanic_x.htm

    Immigrant Hispanics pump as much as $20 billion into Nevada's economy a year, contributing to the vitality of the nation's fastest growing state, Hispanic immigrants boost economy

    Hispanic immigrants boost economy
    Nevada sees $20B boost annually from demographic
    Bill O'Driscoll RENO GAZETTE-JOURNAL
    Posted: 9/13/2004 10:02 pm
    Modified: 9/13/2004 10:13 pmBefore a totally unfair and dismal picture develops and spreads perhaps it would be wise to see the other side of the coin as well.

    The Value of Undocumented Workers
    The American Immigration Law Foundation works to increase public understanding of U.S. immigration law through litigation support and public education about the contributions of immigrants to America.. . The report shows immigrant workers provide most major sectors of... can be greatly enhanced by the contributions of immigrant labor... the U.S. to gain legal immigrant status.
    The Value of Undocumented Workers
    Krs's Avatar
    Krs Posts: 2,906, Reputation: 320
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    #7

    May 18, 2006, 07:35 AM
    Comment on Starman's post
    No no way...
    Krs's Avatar
    Krs Posts: 2,906, Reputation: 320
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    #8

    May 18, 2006, 07:38 AM
    It's a problem world wide.
    Even in Europe.

    In europe there some illegal aliens who have been in my country for 2 years.
    Wow that's a nice long holiday isn't it!!
    While we as citizens work our asses off and pay high taxes to support them.
    To me its unfair.

    And also I would like to protect my identity - not lose it at the end of the day.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #9

    May 18, 2006, 08:19 AM
    Just to look at all sides fairly, would you be trying to go to another country if there was opportunity in your own country? Could it be that other governments around the world are so inadequate that the people run from them and move to where they can at least eat in peace? So could you say that the inability of government to meet the needs of the people is a reason for migration by people in the first place?:cool: :eek:
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    Krs Posts: 2,906, Reputation: 320
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    #10

    May 18, 2006, 11:58 AM
    Yes I left my country when I was 19, wanted to experience something new something different - so I went to live in england for 6 years, but I was legal I had VISA's. This was back then before we joined the european union, now I can travel anywhere I want within europe with no visa's being part of the EU.. That's fair enough!

    But aliens its different.
    Its all down to the government at the end of the day. It's the governments fault for aliens running away from there country illegally because they are unhappy and come in illegally in our country! They should sort out there own problems instead making THEM OUR problems.
    But as how selfish this may sound... is it my problem? Is it my countries problem? My answer is simple... NO!
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    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #11

    May 18, 2006, 03:54 PM
    In the ideal world we all would be working together to feed and take care of everyone's needs but we as humans tend to be selfish and sometimes we forget that not everyone has it as good as we do and I'm sure that If MEXICO really cared about their people would they be running to the US?
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
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    #12

    May 18, 2006, 10:54 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Krs
    But as how selfish this may sound... is it my problem? is it my countries problem? my answer is simple... NO!
    I know this isn't a religious discussion but it does touch on certain principles of behavior which are relevant. Also I don't know whether you are a Christian or not or what your opinion of the scriptures is. In any case, your last statement reminded me of what Jesus said.


    Luke 10 (King James Version)

    25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    26He said unto him, What is written in the law? How readest thou?
    27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
    29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
    30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
    31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
    32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
    33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
    34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
    35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
    36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
    37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


    BTW

    Perhaps Iraq isn't this country's problem either from your standpoint and yet billions are being poured into that area in order to improve their way of life. Neither are dozens of other countries and yet the USA spends billions on foreign aid. So perhaps your viewpoint of not lending a helping hand and showing no compassion for the suffering of others because they are not your fellow citizens doesn't quite fit in with the American way.
    Krs's Avatar
    Krs Posts: 2,906, Reputation: 320
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    #13

    May 19, 2006, 12:34 AM
    One must distinguish between the problem of immigration and the virtue of helping those in difficulty. As a matter of face, most people are ready to help but not when such actions can backfire in terms of health and security.

    It is probable that out of the 97% of those who are anti-immigration, 50% or more would be ready to donate money to make their country a better place or to help their children get an education etc.

    One must donate with prudence and must not allow his generosity to be abused. It is also unatural to give up elements like peace, security and a healthy environment to help others.

    Even worse than that, is the impression given to some immigrants that they can enjoy the fruits of Europe without contributing to it or without integrating and accepting values like secularism, gender equality, hygience and ethics.

    People and politicians complain and complain. Lm11 million a year is WAY enough for our budget illegal lovers!

    If only the government would send them all back, everything will be settled, but one must keep in mind, that other political parties and pressure groups (in malta and within europe) will definitaley call us 'racists.'

    I just want the spokesman of any political spectrum which is in favour of these illegals in our community give us a sensible solution. I know what they'd say, probably they would say SET THEM ALL FREE, UMANI DAWN! Lofl how sad, if we say we are all humans, why do we have countries, nations, and flags (these supposedly represent us). People like this have totally lost it.

    I would deport them all, come what may from the other political parties, racist comments and what not, this is our land, we have to defend it, or else if nothing is done, it's up to the citizens, and this will lead in blood shed. (just like in 1846 in New York, history is repeating itself! - 15,000 / week of illegal irish would end up in the New York shores.)
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
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    #14

    May 19, 2006, 10:28 AM
    The issue isn't really the unrestricted illegal crossing immigrantsd as Mr. Dobbs, who has the habit of card-stacking or presenting only one side of the issue to the detriment of his own believability, smugly tells us each day on TV. Obviously a nation has a right to secure its border and to regulate who enters and who doesn't. The issue is the fanatical insistence that these people who hold jobs here already, have families here, are hardworking and decent not be allowed to participate in the guest worker program as suggested by the president of the United States.


    Weird that a person should enthusiastically suggest a cruel solution, such as indiscrimiate whol;esale deportation and then immediately have us believe that he advocates a sensible one. The policy suggested by the post above would perhaps be viable if it were not inhumane. Unfortunately, such a policy requires callousness of character, an unchristian insensitivity to human suffering that decent Christian Americans would never approve since it goes completely contrary to what Jesus tells us to do when one is dealing with our fellowman. Also, the comment about bloodshed seems to be more of a war cry than a prediction.


    Psalm 55:21
    His mouth was smooth as butter, But his heart was war: His words were softer than oil, Yet were they drawn swords. KJV


    Furthermore, it's wrong to draw an analogy between immigrants who arrive in Europe from the Middle East or Asia with Mexican immigrants because the analogy has one major flaw. The flaw might not seem obvious to those who claim to be or are ignorant of very recent history. You see, the parts of Europe mentioned were never part of these European immigrants' original historical homeland. In contrast the parts of what is now NOW USA involved in this immigration issue were once northern Mexico and Mexicans were there before the Aliens who were granted legal status by Mexico. These later became illegal aliens by their refusal to abide by Mexican law which they had promised to obey in order to get in. These felt it their right to illegally take the land that was once Mexico by force. So in some people's perspective, it seems rather strange to throw the word illegal around as Mr. Dobbs and others do when the same appellation can be ethically tagged on those who claim legal ownership of that stolen land. So that historical tidbit, adds a whole new dimension to this problem and stands out like an ethical sore thumb from the perspective of those who have a fair sense of justice.

    In any case, no one is asking the USA to open its borders and let in hordes of illegals as Mr. Dobbs repeatedly states each day on his program despite the repeated explanations given him by Hispanic representatives that such is not the case and despite the explanation given him by the President of the USA in his recent address to the nation in reference to this issue. That sort of misrepresentation of the issue, which Mr. Dobbs disgorges on TV every day in his self appointed crusade, is a strawman argument which is simply put forth to muddy the waters and keep the fanatical opposition to granting those already here for many years a chance to do honest work and make a living.

    As the president pointed out clearly, no one is asking for charity--just an opportunity to work and to be received hospitably in areas that were once there homeland and into which the Anglos who are now angered wee once received hospitably by the Mexican government. That is all that is being sought and nothing more.

    If indeed such an opportunity is denied as Dobbs seems to be suggesting via his one-sided presentation of the issues, then we might as well take a chisel to the words written at the base of the statue of liberty and trash them for all they would be worth since leaving them there would be the epitome of hypocrisy. Again your words bring the scriptures to my mind.


    Genesis 4:9
    And Jehovah said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: am I my brother's keeper? KJV

    Incidentally, those who are vehemently opposed to letting these people participate in a guest program are the very ones who would loudly protest when the prices for agricultural products double after if these employers are forced to pay the minimum or higher than minimum wage. Neither do I see Americans so desperate for Jobs that they would be willing to spend eight backbreaking hours under the sun for a minimum wage.


    BTW

    My hope for a better world is not placed on governments but is placed on God's kingdom. However, it isn't wrong to speak out against injustice in the meantime since remaining silent might be viewed as tacit approval.
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    valinors_sorrow Posts: 2,927, Reputation: 653
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    #15

    May 19, 2006, 10:55 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman
    With over 10 million illegal aliens in the U.S who is to blame and how would you solve this problem?:cool:
    I don't have enough information on this topic to make an informed opinion... but I do have a related question. I have tried to research it, but have not done so to satifaction yet.

    How does anyone in the US know accurately how many illegal folks are here and from where they came?

    Acquiring that information, on the outset, seems a formidable task since those people seem the most likely to hide - which is what prompted me to wonder.

    Can anyone shed some light to it?
    Krs's Avatar
    Krs Posts: 2,906, Reputation: 320
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    #16

    May 20, 2006, 06:17 AM
    Weird that a person should enthusiastically suggest a cruel solution, such as indiscrimiate whol;esale deportation and then immediately have us believe that he advocates a sensible one.

    Reason for this suggestion is manily for protection, why shouldn't we put ourselves first!!
    That's what I can't understand. I know helping people is very important but our help is taken advantage then I don't accept that. And that's what's happening in europe, so us as europeans want to put our foot down and portect us.
    If this whole issue was vice-versa do you think they would accept us a european and our culture in their land??
    I personally know my answer.
    Krs's Avatar
    Krs Posts: 2,906, Reputation: 320
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    #17

    May 20, 2006, 06:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Krs
    Weird that a person should enthusiastically suggest a cruel solution, such as indiscrimiate whol;esale deportation and then immediately have us believe that he advocates a sensible one.

    Reason for this suggestion is manily for protection, why shouldnt we put ourselves first!!!
    Thats what i can't understand. I know helping people is very important but our help is taken advantage then i dont accept that. And thats whats happening in europe, so us as europeans want to put our foot down and portect us.
    If this whole issue was vice-versa do u think they would accept us a european and our culture in their land???
    I personally know my answer.
    Oh and I'm talking about the problems with illegal aliens in europe not USA
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
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    #18

    May 20, 2006, 08:44 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Krs
    Weird that a person should enthusiastically suggest a cruel solution, such as indiscriminate wholesale deportation and then immediately have us believe that he advocates a sensible one.

    Reason for this suggestion is manily for protection, why shouldnt we put ourselves first!!!
    Thats what i can't understand. I know helping people is very important but our help is taken advantage then i dont accept that. And thats whats happening in europe, so us as europeans want to put our foot down and portect us.
    If this whole issue was vice-versa do u think they would accept us a european and our culture in their land???
    I personally know my answer.
    Here seems to be your argument expressed as a syllogism:

    Putting ourselves first justifies being inhumane
    The present situation demands I put myself first.
    I am justified in being inhumane


    Of course you have a duty to look out for yourself.
    But that doesn't annul your duty toward others both from an philosophical ethical or Christian standpoint. The problem with your suggested solution is that it indiscriminately includes people who want to do an honest day's work and care for their family and are law abiding with the troublemakers. Such a policy is of necessity an unjust one. So is the effort which Dobbs is putting forth with his daily propaganda to sway American opinion against President Bush's policy of helping these people become guest workers so they can earn a living without having to be exploited by predatory money-hungry employers. When we callouslly deprive a person of his livelihood and then suggest nonchalantly that they and their families be dumped in some Godforsaken area and left there as if they were a bunch of cattle, then we are being inhumane regardless of our motives.

    BTW

    The USA border policy between USA and Mexico follows a pattern that is easily understood by social scientists. They have observed that the policy becomes lax when the USA is short on cheap labor and becomes stricter when that labor begins to be perceived as not as necessary. It happened with the Chinese when they were needed for railroad building. Once the construction ceased then quotas were passed to prevent any further significant immigration. It has also happened repeatedly in relation to the Mexican immigration as well. You can't show people how well it goes for them here and then turn around and tell them to stay away after you have finished using them to your convenience. It violates a principle of not using humans as things.




    BTW
    I am not taking sides in any national conflict,
    This is not about nations it's about people.
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
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    #19

    May 20, 2006, 09:00 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Krs
    oh and im talking about the problems with illegal aliens in europe not USA
    .It's applicable to all aliens in all nations by extension and anyone reading it will apply it to the present border issue. The real danger in such statements is that they are inflammatory. Irrational people, of which there are a significant number in this world, will latch on to any statement that encourages their need to persecute, harass, humiliate. Neither will those individuals make a distinction among the various Hispanic groups in the USA. They will conveniently lump them together as is their custom and proceed to do what they consider their patriotic duty. It's a mentality that is indigenous and which feeds off the type of statements made by Dobbs and others who either don't know what the consequences of those statements mean for ALL Hispanics or else just don't give a damn. Just recently a guest on his show stated that land mines should be placed on both sides of the border. Dobbs, who had seemed a bit saddened by previous commentaries which did not share his views was suddenly rejuvenated and began to laugh. In fact, he was still laughing when the cameras faded out the scene. Of course Dobbs would tell you that he simply found the idea funny and that-shucks-he meant no harm. If indeed this is the case, then the man is a loose canon and should be muzzled in order to prevent any of his other well meaning statements from causing the very bloodshed that tickles him pink to think about

    Matthew 19:36-37 "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.. . For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned...
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #20

    May 20, 2006, 11:13 AM
    I think you make a very valid point here Starman, nobody cares as long as there is a need for cheap labor but when the job is done they should disappear as if they never existed. The fact that the governments here and abroad allow for these people to come from their native lands shows the need for them but after all the protest and dust clears ,now they are a threat to the economy. The foundation of the US is built on immigration and to not allow immigrants to come for a better life and the freedoms we enjoy is going against the very principle that we have established as right. They should be given amnesty, a job, and a chance at the freedom we all deserve. As to how many we are talking about everyone agrees on 10 million but I haven't found any site that makes this number official so in my mind the 10 million number is an estimate. It also shows the lack of border security we have in the US,so whose to blame for that but the president!:cool: :eek:

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