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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #121

    Jul 28, 2008, 05:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Tj3
    If you are not prepared to discuss, and if you are posting off topic, then you should not be posting vague ill-defined comments.
    I was hoping you'd Goggle. Guess not.

    Do you agree with DrGade's post?
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    #122

    Jul 28, 2008, 05:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl
    I was hoping you'd Goggle. Guess not.
    Google what? Your comments were irrelevant to the topic. You even suggested as much. Once again, unless you have something to say, it makes no sense to fill up the thread with vague comments suggesting that you are thinking something but it has so little place on the board that you can't say it. My children used to do that, but it has no place in an adult discussion.
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    #123

    Jul 28, 2008, 05:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Tj3
    Google what? Your comments were irrelevent to the topic.
    Neither of us was on topic at the time.
    De Maria's Avatar
    De Maria Posts: 1,359, Reputation: 52
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    #124

    Jul 28, 2008, 05:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Tj3
    Read this quote from Roman Catholic Cardinal John Henry Newman

    -------------------------
    We are told in various ways by Eusebius that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and those dedicated to the particular saints, and ornamented on occasion with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water, asylums, holy days and seasons, use of calendars, proces­sions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by adoption into the Church.2
    --------------------------

    I have thoroughly studied this period of church history. I suggest that you likewise. First, check out the history behind the pope's title:

    Pontifex Maximus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Second, grab book written by a Roman Catholic Historian called "Constantine's Sword".

    Once you have done that, maybe you will understand a bit better. But even at that, it is only a start. It would be best to do your research first and then let's discuss this topic.
    Let us get a bit larger snippet of that same book. Lets try the sentence before it.

    The example set by St. Gregory in an age of persecution was impetuously followed when a time of peace succeeded. In the course of the fourth century two movements or developments spread over the face of Christendom, with a rapidity characteristic of the Church; the one ascetic, the other ritual or ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius [Note 16], that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [Note 17], are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. {374}

    Obviously, the new religion being spoken of here is Christendom. If you want to equate "Christendom" with "Catholic Church", I agree.

    And if we go back to the very first paragraph in Chapter 8, we see that Cardinal Newman is discussing the "rise of Christianity". So, if you equate Christianity with "Catholic Church", I also agree.

    But if you are insinuating that St. Constantine established the Church of Christ, I disagree. Nor can you find that statement even insinuated in this treatise.

    But if we go back to the very first Chapter we see that Cardinal Newman believes a more Catholic form of doctrine:
    And sometimes the cultivation of awe and love towards what is great, high, and unseen, has led a man to the abandonment of his sect for some more Catholic form of doctrine....

    Church of Rome:
    Here is a development of doctrine into worship, of which parallel instances are obviously to be found in the Church of Rome.

    But don't take my word for it. Read the whole treatise yourself.
    Newman Reader - Development of Christian Doctrine - Chapter 1

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
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    #125

    Jul 28, 2008, 06:41 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by De Maria
    Let us get a bit larger snippet of that same book. Lets try the sentence before it.

    The example set by St. Gregory in an age of persecution was impetuously followed when a time of peace succeeded. In the course of the fourth century two movements or developments spread over the face of Christendom, with a rapidity characteristic of the Church; the one ascetic, the other ritual or ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius [Note 16], that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [Note 17], are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. {374}
    Right - just as I said, the Newman was speaking of the 4 th century, contrary to what the Roman Catholics on the board claimed. I am, glad that you have conceded that point.

    Obviously, the new religion being spoken of here is Christendom. If you want to equate "Christendom" with "Catholic Church", I agree.
    It is what is claimed to be Christian, though it is now a new religion where pagainism is mixed with Christianity - that is the point. But calling something Christian is not the same as it being Christian. Read Matthew 7:21-23.

    But if you are insinuating that St. Constantine established the Church of Christ, I disagree.
    I never said that. Constantine started the Roman Catholic Church. The Church of Christ denomination was started in 1830. Though interestingly they also claim to be the one and only true Christ started by Jesus, just as the Mormons do, the JWs do, and many others.

    This illustrates the danger of placing your denomination or tradition above the Bible very nicely. If you place your denomination of tradition above God's word (the Bible), then you will think that you are right even when you are wrong. Just as each of these churches and cults believes that ONLY their church or organization is the true Church because their tradition or organization solely ordained by God teaches it.

    But when Christians obey God and submit themselves to what the Bible teaches, then it is God's word which holds the authority, not the organizations and traditions of man.
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    #126

    Jul 28, 2008, 06:53 PM
    De Maria,
    Again you are correct but notice that Tj3 continues to twist what was wriiten to fit that which he WANTS to believe.
    That is not new. Many people over the years have done the same.
    Accepting the truth is very hard for some people.
    I pray that God will open there closed minds.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
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    #127

    Jul 28, 2008, 07:03 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura
    De Maria,
    Again you are correct but notice that Tj3 continues to twist what was wriiten to fit that which he WANTS to believe.
    That is not new. Many people over the years have done the same.
    Accepting the truth is very hard for some people.
    I pray that God will open there closed minds.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
    Fred,

    I see that once again you choose to use ad hominems rather than deal with the issue. If you were so sure of what you think you know, it would be more effective to put forward the evidence for what you believe. Falling back on ad hominems is typically a method used by those who have no other defense for what they believe.

    I agree that accepting the truth is very hard for some people.
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    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #128

    Jul 28, 2008, 10:01 PM
    Tj3,
    Are you that guilty feeling?
    I did not mention any names.
    The shoe much have fit, for you put it on.
    The issue was dealt with in what I said to De Maria.
    It was NOt addressed to you.
    Perhaps you did not notice that.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
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    #129

    Jul 28, 2008, 10:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura
    Tj3,
    Are you that guilty feeling?
    I did not mention any names.
    The shoe much have fit, for you put it on.
    The issue was dealt with in what I said to De Maria.
    It was NOt addressed to you.
    Perhaps you did not notice that.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
    Oh Fred, I cannot say if you it your eyesight or your forgetfulness which makes you unable to read or remember the first line of your post where you made a false accusation; which was subsequently followed up by your innuendo that perhaps it is my fault that you cannot remember your false accusations.

    Perhaps you simply did not post personal attacks, remembering what you said would not be an issue. :D

    BTW, even if you had not mentioned me, I am opposed to abusive remarks and false accusations made against anyone, by anyone.
    revdrgade's Avatar
    revdrgade Posts: 162, Reputation: 37
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    #130

    Jul 28, 2008, 10:11 PM
    Religions change all the time due to man's opinions, emotions and world's level of dislike of God.

    God does not change (even though He many change a method when dealing with man).
    His will and goal is that ALL should come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. This was His goal with the first proclamation in the Garden of Eden of the one Who would crush the head of satan and thus give us access to the tree of life again.

    What people like Constantine and many others who mixed secular things into God's kingdom did, did not alter the will of God.

    God's people became and become God's people by faith through grace whether the saints of the OT, NT times or now. Being afraid of God does not save. Ignorant fear of God can only drive people to repent of their unbelief and seek His grace.
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    #131

    Jul 28, 2008, 10:39 PM
    revdrgade,
    It is nice and good to see you here.
    As always I appreciate you thoughts an insights on Christian matters.
    I very much agree with what you said as I quote you below here.
    <<<+>>>
    "God's people became and become God's people by faith through grace whether the saints of the OT, NT times or now. Being afraid of God does not save. Ignorant fear of God can only drive people to repent of their unbelief and seek His grace."
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
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    MoonlitWaves Posts: 171, Reputation: 52
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    #132

    Jul 29, 2008, 06:04 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by revdrgade
    Being afraid of God does not save. Ignorant fear of God can only drive people to repent of their unbelief and seek His grace.
    I completely agree.
    Am I the only one who notices this in some people though? Have any of you came across this same thought when speaking to either atheists or simply people who have been taught incorrectly... they have turned away from God because they have been taught unhealthy fear of Him?
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    #133

    Jul 29, 2008, 07:24 PM
    Moonlutwaves,
    I also agree with rev
    Yes I have. God is love and is therefore to be loved.
    An unhealthy fear of God is self injury by not understanding that God is infinite and perfect in love, mercy, and forgiveness attributes.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
    tawnynkids's Avatar
    tawnynkids Posts: 622, Reputation: 111
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    #134

    Jul 29, 2008, 10:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
    I completely agree.
    Am I the only one who notices this in some people though? Have any of you came across this same thought when speaking to either atheists or simply people who have been taught incorrectly....they have turned away from God because they have been taught unhealthy fear of Him?
    You aren't the only one who noticed. I was once turned from God because of just that reason as were many people I know.
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    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #135

    Jul 29, 2008, 10:29 PM
    tawnynkids,
    As I mentioned here before, I also noticed that.
    I have seen it with atheists and agnostics.
    They can't seem to grasp that God is NOT a ruthless tyrant.
    Rather He is love and created out of love.
    All that is good and love comes originally from God.
    Love and good are a part of the image of God in which we mortals were created.
    Thank God for that and much more.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
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    #136

    Jul 29, 2008, 10:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura
    tawnynkids,
    As I mentioned here before, I also noticed that.
    I have seen it with atheists and agnostics.
    They can't seem to grasp that God is NOT a ruthless tyrant.
    Rather He is love and created out of love.
    All that is good and love comes originally from God.
    Love and good are a part of the image of God in which we mortals were created.
    Thank God for that and much more.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
    Yes, sadly I think that is because people are too busy teaching to fear hell rather than to love God, just like I was taught. Unfortunately the message can enter that way but God has miraculous ways of showing us what He wants us to see. It was a bit easier for me to understand though when I looked at my relationship with my own children and applied it to my relationship with God. I want my children to obey and love me (healthy respect/fear) because I love them not out of fear of me or the consequences (unhealthy fear). I want them to realize the consequences of disobedience yes but I don't ever want that to be the driving factor. That is how I view the difference between a healthy view of fearing someone versus an unhealthy fearing of someone.
    De Maria's Avatar
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    #137

    Jul 30, 2008, 10:35 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Tj3
    Right - just as I said, the Newman was speaking of the 4 th century, contrary to what the Roman Catholics on the board claimed. I am, glad that you have conceded that point.
    Only if you don't know how to read English. However, I am confident that there are many reasonable people on this forum who can read the matter for themselves. It is obvious that Cardinal Newman is referring to Christendom as the new religion. And Christendom, by its very name is the Church of Jesus Christ.

    In addition, the good Cardinal has not even used the terminology "Catholic" in this paragraph.

    So, your interpretation is another example of how you read your presuppositions into everything. Not just Scripture.

    It is what is claimed to be Christian, though it is now a new religion where pagainism is mixed with Christianity - that is the point. But calling something Christian is not the same as it being Christian. Read Matthew 7:21-23.
    No. The accoutrements are simply the dressings. The doctrines remain Christ's.

    We can look at Protestantism today and see that you aren't even dressed the way Luther dressed. Nor do your temples look as they did in the days of the Reformation. Yet, you continue claim the same faith.

    Or perhaps you don't. I hadn't thought of that. There is no continuity between you and the past. You make up your religion from generation to generation don't you?

    I never said that. Constantine started the Roman Catholic Church.
    Why yes, yes you did.

    Message #101, you said,
    Fred,

    It is a denomination by definition. The term denomination comes from the root word "nom" which means name. Once you have a group of churches combined together under one name, you have a denomination, and this happened in 325AD when Constantine created the Roman Catholic church.
    Well, you used the word "created". But the difference in meaning is negligible.

    The Church of Christ denomination was started in 1830. Though interestingly they also claim to be the one and only true Christ started by Jesus, just as the Mormons do, the JWs do, and many others.
    The difference is that they can't prove it. Whereas the Catholic Church can trace Her Popes, Bishops, Saints, Church buildings, Church history both at the universal and local level, all the way back to Jesus Christ.

    And I'm not really interested in those denominations in this discussion as I am in yours. Although you've not revealed what denomination you profess, I KNOW that your beliefs can only be traced back as far Luther AT BEST.

    This illustrates the danger of placing your denomination or tradition above the Bible very nicely. If you place your denomination of tradition above God's word (the Bible), then you will think that you are right even when you are wrong. Just as each of these churches and cults believes that ONLY their church or organization is the true Church because their tradition or organization solely ordained by God teaches it.
    The Catholic Church places God's word above everything.

    But when Christians obey God and submit themselves to what the Bible teaches, then it is God's word which holds the authority, not the organizations and traditions of man.
    The Church holds to Scripture. And to Tradition in obedience to Scripture.

    But when Protestants rebel against the Word of God by disobeying Scripture's command to keep the traditions and to obey the Church leaders, that leads to anarchy and division as has been proved. All we have to do is look at those who hold to the tradition of men known as Sola Scriptura.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
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    #138

    Jul 31, 2008, 12:05 AM
    De Maria,
    Excellent response to Tj3 though he will argue it forever.
    You are right and he is wrong it is a simple as that.
    Twisting the words of others and picky choosey Scripture to make the point one wants to make is the name of the game and has been for several hundred years.
    For 30 years I was a Catholic basher until I started reading Scripture and history carefully to prove that Catholicism was wrong.
    What happened was that the more I learned the more I found that The Church (Catholic that is) was right time after time after time.
    I also came to realize that the more a person is zealously opposed to the Catholic Church the more that person harbors a deep seated (though hidden) fear that the Catholic Church is right and always has been.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
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    #139

    Jul 31, 2008, 05:26 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura
    De Maria,
    Excellent response to Tj3 though he will argue it forever.
    You are right and he is wrong it is a simple as that.
    Twisting the words of others and picky choosey Scripture to make the point one wants to make is the name of the game and has been for several hundred years.
    For 30 years I was a Catholic basher until I started reading Scripture and history carefully to prove that Catholicism was wrong.
    What happened was that the more I learned the more I found that The Church (Catholic that is) was right time after time after time.
    I also came to realize that the more a person is zealously opposed to the Catholic Church the more that person harbors a deep seated (though hidden) fear that the Catholic Church is right and always has been.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
    Thanks be to God! I wasn't a Catholic Basher. But I had no love for the Church. Although I was born Catholic, I became Atheist in my early teens.

    When I came back to Christ however, I was first approached by several Protestants who told me about Sola Scripture. I tried to believe it, but the fact is, I couldn't understand the Bible without help.

    So, logically, Sola Scriptura didn't work. My standard for truth was teaching. Some person had to teach me or I had to gather the information I needed from books about the faith.

    Anyway, I just got on to kill some time. I'll be leaving for a week. God willing, I'll be back to continue these conversations.

    Peace and kindness,

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
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    #140

    Jul 31, 2008, 07:16 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by De Maria
    Only if you don't know how to read English.
    Heh heh heh - well if you have no other defense, go after the person, right?

    No. The accoutrements are simply the dressings. The doctrines remain Christ's.
    So pagan ritual's dressed up with Christian words thrown in is okay - is that your position?

    We can look at Protestantism today and see that you aren't even dressed the way Luther dressed. Nor do your temples look as they did in the days of the Reformation. Yet, you continue claim the same faith.
    No, I am not protestant.

    Why yes, yes you did.

    Message #101, you said,
    What is it that you think that I was saying that I did not say. You appear mixed up. Constantine did indeed start the Roman catholic Church in 325AD - I have stated that consistently - why - you think that somewhere that I denied that?

    The difference is that they can't prove it.
    They have as much evidence as your denomination - empty claims on paper.

    The Catholic Church places God's word above everything.
    Then why are we having this discussion? Let's examine your tradition using God's word.

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