[Credendovidis]

This is my topic question, and unless you clearly address another person you are addressing me !
You ninc*mp**ps do not even know the board rules, I see !

:D

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[bushg]

Better than being called a "gringo'!

[michealb]

I personally never saw a reason for christians to seek medical attention in the first place. According to them we live in an evil sin filled world(that is perfectly designed by god for us?) and paradise awaits us. The bible doesn't specifically say you have to get medical treatment or even develop new cures for things. If you really believe your own hype you wouldn't seek medical attention at all because it would be god's will to save you or not save you and if he didn't paradise awaits so what's the big deal.

[inthebox]

Neither does the Bible say you should not seek medical help. After all, when peolple came to Jesus they wanted to be healthy, and Jesus had compassion and healed many, he did not just bring them up to heaven at that instant moment in time.

But we see the physical side, God sees the spiritual side, the side that matters for all eternity. Matthew 9 - Jesus healing the paralytic.

[N0help4u]

I personally never saw a reason for christians to seek medical attention in the first place. According to them we live in an evil sin filled world(that is perfectly designed by god for us?) and paradise awaits us. The bible doesn't specifically say you have to get medical treatment or even develop new cures for things. If you really believe your own hype you wouldn't seek medical attention at all because it would be god's will to save you or not save you and if he didn't paradise awaits so whats the big deal.

I wouldn't rule out God not wanting Christians to seek medical help. We are told to take care of our bodies. Which of course means taking care of it so that you hopefully do not need a doctor but if you need one then it is not wrong. I think it is totally wrong for some religions to deny parents getting their children medical help to the point they die so that right there alone I have to believe God is okay with medical attention.

[Alty]

A man was swimming across the Atlantic Ocean and he was about to drown. A boat came by and the man in the boat said, "You're drowning, let me save you!"
The man drowning said, "No, that's okay I will put my faith in God."
The man in the boat says, "Okay, if you say so."

A few minutes later another boat comes by and the woman in the boat says, "You're drowning, let me save you!"
The man drowning said, "No, that's okay, I will put my faith in God."

A few minutes later another boat comes by and the people in the boat say, "You're drowning, let us save you!"
The man drowning says, "No that's okay, I will put my faith in God."
The people in the boat say "Okay, if you say so."

So the man drowns. He goes up to heaven and sees God. The man says, " I put my faith in you and you didn't save me."
Then God says, " I SENT YOU THREE BOATS!"

That's my take on it. :)

[N0help4u]

In response to Altenwegs post! #26

A man was swimming across the Atlantic Ocean and he was about to drown. A boat came by and the man in the boat said, "You're drowning, let me save you!"
The man drowning said, "No, that's okay I will put my faith in God."
The man in the boat says, "Okay, if you say so."

A few minutes later another boat comes by and the woman in the boat says, "You're drowning, let me save you!"
The man drowning said, "No, that's okay, I will put my faith in God."

A few minutes later another boat comes by and the people in the boat say, "You're drowning, let us save you!"
The man drowning says, "No that's okay, I will put my faith in God."
The people in the boat say "Okay, if you say so."

So the man drowns. He goes up to heaven and sees God. The man says, " I put my faith in you and you didn't save me."
Then God says, " I SENT YOU THREE BOATS!"

That's my take on it. :)

Exactly!!
One I tell only it is a flood and the guy is stuck on the roof.

[michealb]

But I still say if you are so sure that paradise awaits you why not go as soon as possible. It seems like a simple logic problem to me. If you're here and you are sure over there is better why not go over there as soon as you can. Of course as an atheist every moment I'm here is precious because there isn't somewhere better to go, so my goal is to live as long as possible but for christians you should logically have the exact opposite goal. To live a short of a life as possible with very little sin and of course the shorter you live the less time you will have to be temped by sin.

[Alty]

Going to heaven is a reward for living. I have every intention of staying here as long as I can. I like life, it's good, love being with my family, my kids, walking on the grass, smelling the flowers. Do I believe in heaven? I sure want to. Am I wrong? Could be, I guess I won't find out until I die. Have I sinned? You betcha. So maybe I'm not going to heaven even if it exists.

My goal, live as long as I can, enjoy every minute and hope for the best.

What does this have to do with the topic Michealb?

[Choux]

Box guy,

Theology is the study of god fantasy and make believe. YOu don't seem to understand the basis of your religion.

The basis of Christianity is that GodAlmighty will torment you in hell for *eternity* if you, his "beloved" creation do not follow his rules. Salvation is the only way an individual can escape this horrific situation and "go to heaven".

That is what you BELIEVE whether you understand it or not.

It is not true, you just *believe it is true*. It is religion, faith.

[Credendovidis]

Theology is the study of god fantasy and make believe. You don't seem to understand the basis of your religion.

Great response, Choux !

:D

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[michealb]

It fits in with euthanasia, religion and morality I'm sure, but I guess it has to do with the question of why is it wrong to let nature take it's course when your sick or when someone who is unable to think for themselves is sick.

I'll accept an answer of "I'm not sure there is a heaven but I am sure I am least here." It's really a question for those people who are certain that there is a heaven and that they are sure they have a personal in with Jesus. I know there are certain sects of Christianity that don't take medical attention I just don't see a reason why all the ones that are so sure don't do the same.

[Choux]

Jesus main earthly ministry was *healing the sick*... If Christian people *really believed*, they would engage in faith healing... omit physicians. Of course, they don't really believe because it is dangerously passé.

[Credendovidis]

I just ask myself why there is such a clear Christian opposition each time anywhere any format of euthanasia is introduced.
What is essential is that there are strict rules for the euthanasia process, and that the patient has signed an instruction towards euthanasia (and when to perform euthanasia).
What Christians think of that should be totally irrelevant. Who does not want euthanasia should simply not sign an instruction to do so.

What therefore is very important is that every person should sign a last will with instructions regarding euthanasia. I feel that the decision when and how to end your life is up to you, regardless what other people find of that.

The only part of euthanasia open to debate should be when people who have not signed an instruction suddenly fall ill or are injured , and are as a result of that too late to sign an instruction, or who get killed.
That part should be up to an independent judge, to prevent misuse.

Any serious comments ?

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[N0help4u]

Yeah Jack Kevorkian had the right idea and they sent him to jail because he was before his time.
Many people sign DNR papers
Many Christians say that if they have to be kept alive artificially they would rather die.
So far there is no legal way to actually euthanize people so even if some Christians are for it it is not an option-yet

[Credendovidis]

So far there is no legal way to actually euthanize people so even if some Christians are for it it is not an option-yet

Well : that you do not have that option is just due to the pressure by US Christians who disagree with this euthanasia option.
Here in Western Europe more and more countries have thrown off the Christian reins, and introduced an euthanasia process under strict legal controls and rules.

:)

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[Alty]

I agree NoHelp. I'm not against euthanasia, society is against euthanasia, at least the majority are.

Like I said before, if I could have ended my mothers suffering, legally, I would have. She was terminal, she suffered for 10 months, at the end she weighed 80 pounds soaking wet, had to have an oxygen machine, couldn't walk by herself, had no hair left, and no finger nails or toe nails left, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, couldn't do anything but suffer. Who would wish that on someone they love?

I do believe in God, but not in a conventional way. I don't go to church, nor do I read the bible, so I won't quote scriptures or anything else, but I do believe in God. I know, I'm a contradiction, as such, I don't need to explain my beliefs to anyone, because there isn't a "group" of people that has the same beliefs and faith that I do.

I go to doctors when I'm sick, that's what they're there for. I do know people who's religion forbids them to seek medical attention, they get no sympathy from me. If you believe that God made the world, well, then he made everything in it too, doctors, lawyers, everything.

Having said all that. If my daughter or son (both of whom I love more than anything, and I'd give my life for them in a second) were on life support, in a vegetative state, with no hope of recovery, I'd pull the plug without a seconds hesitation. Would I be remorseful? Not for what I did, but for what I couldn't do.

[N0help4u]

I agree that if the quality of life is gone then machines and all should not be used to keep you alive. Makes sense to me.

[Credendovidis]

I agree that if the quality of life is gone then machines and all should not be used to keep you alive.

Yes Linda : it is terrible that there are hundreds of people having to live either in pain or as plants for years, before they die an undignified death. In my volunteer work in the local hopes I saw people kept for weeks under strong sedation because of the horrible pains they have, before they died in agony. Even dogs and cats have more dignified ends to their life !
If that is what people want themselves : fine with me. But if people prefer to die in a dignified way : why not?

I strongly support an OFFICIAL legal arrangement that one can put in one's will to ensure that one is allowed to die when all other dignified options are finished.
There is nothing to fear in dying. It is nothing but going to sleep, without ever awaking again.
All religious connotations and beliefs are up to the individual to consider. But they are just religious claims. Not facts. Just possibilities. It is up to each individual to see what is the validity of these possibilities. In my case that is nil. For others that may be different.
But it never should be that religious people decide that others are no allowed to die in dignity, because the religious people believe that you have to go on till the end.

:)

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[N0help4u]

I liked the idea of IF you WANT to be kept alive that you should have to have THAT in writing instead of the other way around.
I know if I don't have my health I don't even like the idea of being stuck in a nursing home the rest of my life.
It's about QUALITY of life
Why be a vegetable that can't appreciate a thing cause you are so out of it and all you have to look forward to is another day of pain or another day of not even recognizing or knowing anything.