[Stratmando]

On single pole switches I install with 2 screws to the right side, this makes it up for on.
On 3 ways I like to maybe turn one "Upside Down" if needed so when all switches are switched off in multiple locations and 3 and 4 ways, everything is off. In the photo , it almost looks like the switchleg(white wire) made contact with the ground on single pole switch, If they touch when switch is installed and shock occurs when light is on(3 way light). Then that may be problem?

[stanfortyman]

HOLY CRAP Engineer. Who ever wired that should be shot then arrested!

They are using a bare ground wire as a current carrying conductor. They didn't run a 3-wire for the 3-way switch so they used the ground wire!

See the top picture.

[KISS]

There were 3 on wires on the uppermost
take-off that led from the bottom of the panel, yet only
two coming from the main panel breaker. This led me to suspect that
one of them is a ground(!) leading somewhere into the dirt
that I can't see...possily because they built onto this garage
structure behind it and left the ground underneath(?).

Kind of, sort of.

Taken by itself. It is a ground or a neutral. Problem is you need two wires connected to the same point at the other end, but you can use an 8 AWG for ground.

Based on what stanfortyman said (I think), it's permissible (old code) to use this as a neutral and have a ground rod for ground. New code reguires a ground rod and a ground.

[KISS]

The left view seems to show the bare wire being used as a current carrying conductor. That's not right.

Time to start over?

If you don't have the time to do it right, when you going to find the time to do it over?

Have about the same weather forecast where I'm at, but the Gulf's water temperature is very comfy. I'm about 100-150 miles from the Atlantic Ocean. You'll just have to be fast and do it between the rain drops. <G>.

[stanfortyman]

Based on what stanfortyman said (I think), it's permissable (old code) to use this as a neutral and have a ground rod for ground. New code reguires a ground rod and a ground.

It's not that you use a ground rod for the ground. This is not possible since a ground rod does NOT provide or create a ground.
If under recent codes a 3-wire feeder (sans ground) was run to a detached structure you would then bond the neutral to the panel same as a main panel. THIS is where your ground comes from.

[Stratmando]

Stanforty, I totally missed the bare a for current carrying conductor, if it connects to other bares(grounds) then we see where problem may be.
I now worry about the rest of the house, same electrician?
You can do X10 for 3 way lighting should getting another conductor not be easily done.

[stanfortyman]

I now worry about the rest of the house, same electrician?
You can do X10 for 3 way lighting should getting another conductor not be easily done.

I agree on both counts!

[chiefengineer]

First, I want to thank everyone who has added to these threads;
I hope the solution outlined below is a noteworthy piece of
Sleuthing for future readers(?).

I couldn't sleep well last night as problems like this
Bug me. Why, after wiring my whole two story addition with electric,
HVAC, jaccuzzi, an in-wall computerized surveillance system, etc.
Was I stumped by these switches? Had I learned nothing?

It dawned on me that there were actually SIX wires to switch number one,
Not just the measly four
Required to do a "Fixture Between Two Three-Way Switches: Power Through Switch" configuration. Having lived 14 years in southern Missouri
Learning to fix anything without going to town first paid off with this
Strange conclusion: "lots of extra wires here to play with = no one who wired this could be this big a bozo."

So here's what conclusion(s) solved this:

1)Bare ground used as conductor is creating shock hazard
And therefore must have another purpose in life.

2)There is no reddish "common wire" to toggle these switches,
Or if there is, it is unpainted/unidentified, therefore
White must be intended to be that "common wire" since for no
Apparent reason it is on the common terminal of the garage switch.

3)Since there are no rubbing/crossed wires switch (#3) in mudroom must be wired wrong even though it is black/black,
White/white, ground/ground, (thus, the bozo factor is reincarnated elsewhere).

To the mudroom and switch number three...
Moved white to common and ground to neutral. Light toggles from
Both ends with no shocks at either switch.

Now before I break my arm patting myself on the back and probably reward
The person most nearly headed in this possible solution/direction for simply
Rewiring in a backwards-looking fashion the very switch that titillated a guest, there
Is the small matter of no ground on mudroom switch 3 (it is terminated
At the light). So unless someone says "Oh my God I wouldn't sleep in
that futute heap of smouldering ashes" I'm going on my merry way to
Solve the unending mysteries of how things get done
Around here.

[KISS]

In the meantime, wire the ground and neutral busses in the garage panel together and see if things improve.

I'll look at your latest post later.

EDIT: This will at least get you close to the "old code".

- Work on getting a ground rod at the garage panel for lightning protection.

- Clean up the wiring in the garage panel
... Tape the neutral white
... No cable sheaths in the panel

[chiefengineer]

In the meantime, wire the ground and neutral busses in the garage panel together and see if things improve.

- Clean up the wiring in the garage panel
......Tape the neutral white
......No cable sheaths in the panel

I wrote this yesterday at 10:08AM:
"
I had time to cap all the loose wires with tape
in the garage panel, then moved the 220V ground
wire that was on the right side ground bar to the
right side neutral bar.

I also carefully inspected the power coming from the
outside panel's 100A breaker and found the wires to be
of an immense gauge...probably 6.

There were 3 on wires on the uppermost
take-off that led from the bottom of the panel, yet only
two coming from the main panel breaker. This led me to suspect that
one of them is a ground(!) leading somewhere into the dirt
that I can't see...possily because they built onto this garage
structure behind it and left the ground underneath(?).

I checked a couple of outlets and got 115V ground to hot after
this switch."

Let me explain: I attached a pic of the garage panel (all cleaned up as I indicated yesterday) at the top. The middle lead with the bonding screw is circled by a red donut.
This is attached by the large black 6-8 gauge sheathed cable that leads either through the bottom of the panel to a ground in the house panel or to a grounding rod under the garage addition. The hot/ground readings all came back normal.

I don't know how further to test this except everything works perfectly and there is
No more live ground. Perhaps the best test was the huge lightning strike on the transformer a few feet
Outside this box last year... nothing was injured(?)

[KISS]

The life preserver shows where the neutral/ground bond screw would have been.

[Stratmando]

Kiss, is the Middle Neutral, or the one on the right, the orange cable covers.
Chief, can you look at and confirm the Lug and wire that connects to Neutral bar?
Left, Center, Right?

[KISS]

Strat:

Post #7 has a better picture of the entire panel. The terminal in the donut is neutral.

Chief should place a wire between the ground and neutral bars or put in the missing screw. This is more apparent in post #7.

[chiefengineer]

Thanks for all the feedback.
As requested here are 3 confirmation pics.

One shows all the connections from the main house panel
To the garage panel. Note the striped cover on the neutral,
What I perceive to be a grounding block on this wire that
Has been taped (why, if this is desirable?), and the absence
Of a neutral/ground bond.

The next shows bare cables capped and a close-up of the
Garage panel with the striped neutral and also no neutral/ground bond in
The box (but couldn't there be an in-ground block to this I can't see?).
BTW these take-offs are LIVE (pre-cut-off) and it seems to me to run a wire
From neutral to ground could fry me without calling the electric co.
Out to shut off the transformer (what am I missing?).

The third shows what I perceive to be the ground on the house panel
Housing. Since there are no ground wires in this panel and many
Bare neutrals touch the housing doesn't this create a neutral/ground bond
And therefore to the garage also?

[KISS]

In the first picture the "Too nothing" may not be a bond screw, but I can't see the hole at the top which I'll assume is there like in the lower picture.

So let's assume thAT THE GROUND/NEUTRAL bond is in the meter base which is OK and that this is the main panel.

The second picure is the garage panel. If I remember, it had two busses of wires all mixed from neutral to grounds.

Just connect a wire from the set of neutral terminals to a set of ground terminals. They are all mixed right now, which is OK. What it will do is give the garage panel it's own reference and not have any dependencies on what the garage panel is drawing. There will be a reference potential difference between the main panel and the garage panel, but since you don't typically put one piece of equipment in the garage and another in the house and connect them together with a grounded conductor, this is the best option.

A ground rod in the garage will help prevent lightning damage eminating from the garage circuits, otherwise a hit in the garage, must travel through the neutral to the main panel and (as we believe) to the neutral ground bond in the meter base to the ground ron.

A hit near the transformer should follow a path to ground at the transformer.

An overhead line is more likely to get hit.

Not too bad:

At least you got the shocking switchplate fixed. In all likelyness the original installation was not inspected.

Make sense?

When can we come for vacation? Assuming you have "shocking switchplate" insurance.:D

[chiefengineer]

My disability has worsened and I have
a free disconnect for tree removal coming,
so I thought I'd get some of the grounding
done the kind people in this thread suggested.
The first step would be a main cut-off for the
main panel (see first pic in POST#54 above).

Looked like an easy 200A Square D main breaker until
I added up the amps this main panel supports (the
identification on it is faded out). I added the
max possible simutaneous usage amps on the right:

House sub-panel: 100A breaker to 125A panel = 98A
Garage sub-panel: 100A breaker to 200A panel = 50A
Oven: 40A breaker = 33A
Well pump: 20A breaker = 17A
Central Heat: 100A breaker = 82A
Dryer: 30A breaker = 28A
A/C: 40A breaker = Not used with heater
Total = 308A

Therefore this panel must be rated >200A and I need a
bigger cut-off? This maximum usage combination has never
happened that I know of and I would prefer not to use
my inductive ammeter on a live panel. Note: central heat
is used RARELY.

Who else would forget about this whole "problem" and leave
it as it has flawlessly existed for 25+ years.

[stanfortyman]

The way you added everything up is meaningless. That is not the way to do a load calculation.

WHY do you need a main disconnect for a main breaker panel?

[chiefengineer]

Great question. I have never seen one without before.
Electric company says it is now code so "this is an opportunity".
But from a practical standpoint, my house subpanel has
No main disconnect... it uses the 100A breaker in the main panel as one.
Therefore if that breaker starts to trip I have to call the electric company
And have disconnect fees... or if any of the main breakers fail, same thing.
Or if I want to clean out all the wasps nest without personally igniting.
Earlier in this thread it was suggested I run a ground back to this main
Panel from my garage panel... etc.. However everything works now.

I agree; I was using a home-repair manual from the library which listed amps/watts
For sizing purposes. If it's wrong, it's wrong... I thought that myself... what are the
Odds I'll run a welder when the furnace, oven, dishwasher, and 50 lights are all on? Zero.

[donf]

Just a suggestion, but it looks to me like you have a MLO panel being fed by conductors passing through the meter nipple and into the "Main Panel(?). I'm looking at the pic of the meter that has the hornet's nest in it. This is the panel that feeds the entire home, correct?

More than likely, this panel conformed to the "Six or Less" switches and therefore did not need Main Panel Disconnect.

Next, the breaker to feed the garage is added to the panel and now have a code violation. Because you now have 7 breakers in this panel, you must either add a main cut off switch in front of the panel connections. Or replace the panel with a panel board that does have a Main panelboard disconnect.

Is there a sub panel inside the residence? If so where and can I see a pic of that panel.

Last, can you please tell me which panel is in the garage and give me the pic reference to that image.

With all the discussion that been going back and forth here, I'm surprised no one has asked you for a breaker layout.

All of the breakers you show in the Main Panel are 240 VAC breakers, where are your general branch circuits?

Whoever did the wiring of the switches needs to be sued whether he filed bankruptcy. He criminally endangered your residence to fire hazards.

Have these panels been inspected by both the fire department and the city/county/state electrical inspectors.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that the Electrical Co-op didn't at least tell you why you have a code violation.

I'm a math and computer guy myself and I'd like to tell you that you can reduce electrical wiring down to 'binary events", but you cannot, electrical wiring is not that simple. Your residence has serious wiring problems!

I read in one of your posts that your disability has degenerated, if you don't mind, will you tell us what the disability is. Some of the work that has to be done may be physically outside of your abilities and this may have to be attacked from a different direction.

Just trying to help you.

[chiefengineer]

Thanks for your explanation of code.
The Electric Company had no knowledge of a "6 vs.7 violation".
I simply asked if during their tree trimming I might slap in one of these:
Shop Square D 200-Amp Main Lugs Rainproof Main Breaker at Lowes.com
To make my main panel off the meter "non-MLO". They commented "it would be an opportunity to bring it up to code".
This is a remote rural area and if building inspectors existed I would not
Have had a shocking switchplate. The volunteer fire department is so far away they'd
Never make it, and I believe they're disbanding anyway. Unfortunately or not,
People do whatever they please here.

The best explanation of "general branch circuits" is what I laid out in POST#56 above.
They ARE the breakers in this box, feeding everything: other panels, A/C, stove, etc.
If you mean circuits like "fixed kitchen appliances" they are one my house subpanel.
I am very happy with those... as a math guy you might appreciate this: I analyzed
Them with various on line power-supply calcualtors using Volt-Amps before adding to any.
They are efficient. Nothing has ever tripped. I tested each breaker physically.

The garage panel was added by a bankrupt contractor. He employed the backwards
Switch-wiring "no ID" laborer ever-so-common here. There were so many cost overuns it
Also bankrupted the former owner of this house, who I bailed out with my purchase.
The best picture of the garage panel is on this page:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/electr...te-231047.html
A direct link as of this post is here:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attach...aragepanel.jpg

Although I have no pic of the residence subpanel, it is a Square D Panel rated for 125A which has no main cutoff, 18 20A breakers, and one 30A for the water heater.

I could write a boring medical journal on my physical challenges. I can best summarize it
This way: I have neuro-muscular issues that restrict what I do to the degree I
Am willing to extend daily hydrotherapy, which can be quite burdensome. I am capable of
Installing a main cut-off but my days of downing oak trees is near an end. My analysis was more
Linear than the concept of Volt-Amps... it was how many pure amps, including compressors
And motor surges might conceivably be in simultaeous peak demand. Modeling software smooths
This out. I simply don't want to create a problem where one doesn't exist.