[tomder55]

Guns and Gun Violence - Canada 2006 Election Issue - Federal Parties on Guns and Gun Violence

Worldandnation: Canada's Liberals feel election heat over gun violence

BBC NEWS | Americas | Shooting rekindles Canada gun debate

[NeedKarma]

Find the most restrictive gun laws or policies, and you will find the highest levels of violent crime.

I'm not certain of your causation relationship there. A possible cause of violence is a culture that glorifies violence paired with a good percentage of disadvantaged/desperate people. What do you think?

[ScottGem]

perhaps it is a dodge but so is posting isolated stories of gun accidents due to careless handling .

But I was asking a specific question. In this instance should the weapons be returned to this person after he has shown such a careless disregard for gun safety?

[Sonador101]

No, the guns should be suspended for a temporary time (depending on theincident)

[NeedKarma]

Guns and Gun Violence - Canada 2006 Election Issue - Federal Parties on Guns and Gun Violence
Worldandnation: Canada's Liberals feel election heat over gun violence
BBC NEWS | Americas | Shooting rekindles Canada gun debate

Those were Toronto specific issues that were not issues to Canadians outside of there.

Here, let me help you out: Canadian federal election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Several issues—some long-standing (notably fiscal imbalance, the gun registry, abortion, and Quebec sovereigntism), others recently brought forth by media coverage or court decisions (the sponsorship scandal, same-sex marriages, income trusts, or Canada-United States relations)—have taken the fore in debate among the parties and also influenced aspects of the parties’ electoral platforms.

[tomder55]

What was your position on the gun registry ? That appears to have been very contentuous with the Conservative block thinking the money better spent elsewhere .

[tomder55]

Scott to answer your specific question . I consider gun ownership at the same level as car ownership. Rules apply to their proper usage.

[progunr]

I'm not certain of your causation relationship there. A possible cause of violence is a culture that glorifies violence paired with a good percentage of disadvantaged/desperate people. What do you think?

Your statement could contribute to violence in general, no doubt about it.

The fact is, those disadvantaged/desperate people had, or have, choices to make, just like every other American.

If they choose to take a path of crime and violence, rather than a path of good education, and hard work, they are also free to choose in which areas of the country they can apply their chosen occupation.

Having chosen crime and violence, they also choose the place that the victim is least likely to be armed and prepared to fight back.

Wouldn't a large metropolitan area, with a strict ban on handgun, or gun ownership in general, be the perfect place to apply such a trade?

Or do you think that they would choose the county where it is a law that EVERY citizen MUST have a gun in the home?

Is that such a difficult concept to understand?

[tomder55]

I hinted at other factors . That was one of them.

[NeedKarma]

The fact is, those disadvantaged/desperate people had, or have, choices to make, just like every other American.

If they choose to take a path of crime and violence,

I wasn't aware that every violent criminal in the US had great opportunity but passed it up to choose a life of crime. Poor fellas.

[progunr]

That sounds like a statement I would expect to hear from someone who holds a socialistic point of view.

No personal responsibility, everything is someone, or something else's fault, it has noting to do with personal choices, they are not really criminals, they are all actually just victims, right?

Makes me want to gag.

[tomder55]

But they do . Are you saying that the poor person in the US has no choice but the grab a gun and start blasting away ? Why is that not true elsewhere... only because of gun availability?Why do not they then grab whatever weapon is handy and commit the crime ?

Not necessarily a 'great' opportunity ;it certainly is a rough road . But most American families did not start living in McMansions . It often was generational struggles .But they made it without resorting to crime.

[Fr_Chuck]

Yes, those in the US have a lot of opportunity if they wish to take advantage of it. But in many cultures doing poor in school is even expected and those that do good would be considered outcasts among their peers, in a society like that it is hard for some to do better.

Young people find preference in selling drugs to their own fellow students and drinking parties are preferred over study. There is really no true excuss for any young person in the US to go to college if they really want to.

But yes, most make a valid choice to do their crimes over working and earning a honest living. Having worked in the system and worked the streets of Atlanta with the street people, the ones given choices will prefer the street over a shelter with job training almost all the time.

[progunr]

I'll relate a personal story along these lines.

At the age of 18, from a lower middle class family, all of my friends were into a criminal lifestyle.

I was right in there with them, doing drugs, stealing, no job, no ambition.

A tight group of about 5 of us, did most everything together, legal or illegal.

The other 4, decided that we were going to get into stealing motorcycles. One of the 4 had an older brother with some serious connections to some high level criminals and guaranteed that we could make a fortune with this older brother disposing of the stolen bikes for us.

I went home that night, and did some serious soul searching. While some of the crap we did bothered me a little, this was a huge step up in the level of our crimes.

The next day, I went down and joined the Army.

Yep, right in the middle of the last few years of Viet Nam, I made a personal choice, to not continue a life of crime, and to do something better with my life.

While I was in basic training in Fort Campbell Missouri, I got a letter from my friends. Started the usual stuff, how am I? What is the Army like? Then, in mid sentence, the writing stopped, and in HUGE letters, across the bottom of the page, was written the words

WE'RE BUSTED!!

The door had been kicked in, they all were arrested, and 3 of the four ended up in prison.

The next day, I got a newspaper clipping from my Father, with the names highlighted, and one sentence.

Aren't you glad, you weren't here?

Personal Responsibility.

I'm sure glad I found mine.

[BABRAM]

Fr_Chuck made a excellent point. In Las Vegas, actually everywhere in the US, the public school systems focus on education is sorely lacking. Teachers are given cookie cutter text plans they have to abide by, but as we know not all children learn the same way. And he's right it's not just the peer pressure of past decades either, it's hoodlum pressure. Children attending public schools now-in-days are fighting the odds. If a parent cannot afford private schooling, or qualify the child for a magnet school, or does not have the ability and time for home schooling... the kid is at a real disadvantage.

[NeedKarma]

That sounds like a statement I would expect to hear from someone who holds a socialistic point of view.

But all I did was echo what you wrote here. Does that mean that you are a *gasp* evil socialist? You throw around this 'personal responsibility' statement when no one ever brings up the opposite viewpoint, who the hell doesn't believe in personal responsibility? You set up strawman argument for the lack of a better argument.

BTW I never chose a life of crime, ever. I'll celebrate that more that your choices anyday.

[BABRAM]

Progunr- Good story. Thanks for sharing. I think askmehelpdesk could open a firearm forum for avid hunters, conceal carry, and weekend plinkers and then perhaps a discussion board for those that want to debate gun ownership pro or con. I like reading this guy's articles here: GunOwnersAlliance.com - Ask the Rabbi is BACK! By Rabbi R. Mermelstein and reviewing firearms here: www.gundirectory.com. When I lived in Texas growing up I had a 308, 7.65 Argentina muaser, 6mm and .22 rifles, 12, 20, and 410 gauge shotguns, handgun 38 snub and .22. My brother has a 357 magnum and will retire out of the military in about 3 years. Currently he is a recruiter in Katy, Texas after multiple trips to Iraq. I've been in Vegas for 12 years plus now and have a 9mm short (.380) handy in the home office and am looking at a small Kel-Tec 9mm for conceal carry or one of the new Khar compact 45's or 40's, or maybe just another 38 snub. I also plan on getting a Ruger .22 rifle probably later this year or next , and .223 either standard rifle or AR-15. I've made a few enemies in the Casino business over the years, but Vegas is so high in crime that at least once a week you'll hear pops sounding off from the neighborhoods. I heard two pops yesterday and was just hoping it came from a car backfiring. Speaking of cars, some hoodlums tried stealing my upstairs neighbor's sports car a few day ago. Of course, my primary concern is for my family's safety and that's why I'm gun owner advocate.

[progunr]

But all I did was echo what you wrote here. Does that mean that you are a *gasp* evil socialist? You throw around this 'personal responsibility' statement when no one ever brings up the opposite viewpoint, who the hell doesn't believe in personal responsibility? You set up strawman argument for the lack of a better argument.

BTW I never chose a life of crime, ever. I'll celebrate that more that your choices anyday.

If that is what you call an echo, you obviously don't know the meaning of the term.

You insinuate that just because an individual is disadvantaged/desperate along with a culture that glorifies violence, is an excuse for the personal decisions that these criminals make.

And then you try to claim that your statement in no way attempted to excuse the fact that every criminal gets to decide to commit the crime or not, regardless of a culture that glorifies violence or regardless of the fact that they may be disadvantaged or desperate.

Then you top it off by sounding insulted that I would bring up personal responsibility, and try to insult me with your last statement regarding celebrating your choices?

Surely, even you could do better than that.

[NeedKarma]

You insinuate that just because an individual is disadvantaged/desperate along with a culture that glorifies violence, is an excuse for the personal decisions that these criminals make.

I didn't say it was an excuse, you said that. I said it was possible causation. Why else would their immediate next choice be a life of violent crime?

[Galveston1]

I didn't say it was an excuse, you said that. I said it was possible causation. Why else would their immediate next choice be a life of violent crime?

That argument won't wash. There are plenty of criminals involved in various kind of crimes who were NOT disadvantaged.