[orange]

I feel a little bit guilty for posting in here while I am in mourning and observing shiva... but I'm having trouble sleeping again and I guess this is a bit of a distraction for me. If you're curious what I'm talking about, please read my thread under bereavement:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=22654

Anyway, these are 2 simple questions about wine and spirits. I know that some Christians and most Muslims do not drink any alcohol. My first question is, can they cook with alcohol? Because with most recipes, the actual alcohol evaporates during the cooking.

My second question is for Christians who don't drink alcohol. Didn't Jesus drink? I remember reading in the NT that some people called him a drunkard, and also that he turned water into wine at a wedding. Or maybe what he drank wasn't alcohol as we know it today?

Anyway I'm just really curious about both, so if anyone wants to enlighten me I'd appreciate it, thanks!

[Fr_Chuck]

Hello, first those that don't use alcohol don't use it at all in any mannor, including cooking.

But it is only the very small percentage of Christians that don't drink at all.
Most merely teach it is sinful to drink in large amounts. Catholics, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopal, Methodist ( and I know I am forgetting some) all allow drinking. It is merely what I call some of the more newer churches ( have to remember Chrsitianity is over 2000 years old, so any church that is only a couple hundred years old is new in the history of Christianity. Many have returned to a more legalistic view point of Christianity.

Those that don't believe in drinking will say that Jesus just drank grape juice not wine. Showing of course a lack of understanding of the Jewish culture and history. One can not use grape juice in one passage where Jesus is doing it, and then wine where it warns against excessive drinking.

But that is what is so great about American Christianity, everyone is allowed to start their own religion using their own beliefs.

[fredg]

Hi,
It depends on the particular beliefs in any particular religious church or denomination.
For example, our own church takes the "Lord's Supper" every Sunday, which is grape juice, believing that Jesus also drank grape juice at the "Last Supper".

[orange]

Thanks to both of you for the great answers. But Fred, do you know why your church thinks Jesus drank grape juice and not wine? Like do you have some sort of explanation for that? That's what I'm curious about. Because I know that at the Last Supper, Jesus was celebrating the Jewish festival of Passover, and at Passover wine has always been used.

[JoeCanada76]

I never heard of that before, Call it me being ignorant maybe, but Jesus drinking grape juice, that is so funny, I fell off my chair and broke an arm. Wine was such an important symbol and tradition in Jesus days.

Joe

[jduke44]

I was taught that back then water wasn't as pure as it is today (well to some point anyways) so the wine helped to purify it some. I think I am using the correct terminology. I am not sure who in my church drinks and don't drink but I know in my old church we had a few that liked to have a glass of wine here and there. I think the ones who absolutely restrict it, it's because they don't want even the appearance of evil so by drinking would give the appearance that you might hang out in bars or something. This is only my interpretation and viewpoint.

I know when I was first born again I was drinking and had a hard time giving it up so I did it slowly until I finally gave it up permanently. I know my wife would not appreciate me drinking even a drop and that is only because of my past. This is why I don't drink.

Also, my old church (and probably the church we go ot now) don't allow you to drink if you are a leader of some sort. That means a head of a ministry, elder, etc.

Our church takes grape juice for communion (Lord's supper) however, that is not because we believe Jesus drank grape juice. It is probably because the church don't want to be responsible in a recovery alcoholic (or anyone for that matter) to taste a drink.

You do have so many different views and hopefully others will give insight to either what their church believes or what they have witnessed or heard.

[orange]

I never heard of that before, Call it me being ignorant maybe, but Jesus drinking grape juice, that is so funny, I fell off my chair and broke an arm. Wine was such an important symbol and tradition in Jesus days.

Joe

Haha. Well I hadn't heard of the grape juice idea either, so don't feel bad!

And thanks jduke, your explanation makes a lot of sense to me actually. Your church's reasoning has more to do with alcoholism or alcohol abuse than the fact that Jesus drank wine, and I can understand that. Actually what is done in synagogue for kaddish, there is always a bottle of wine and a bottle of kosher grape juice. People who can't drink wine for medical reasons can then easily take the grape juice. Interestingly enough though, Jews can also observe kaddish using whiskey or vodka. At least where I live, the synagogue offers that choice as well.

And yeah I'm not interested in turning this into a debate or anything, just curious where the beliefs come from, so thanks again to everyone who's responded and feel free to add more. I'm finding it all very interesting.

[arcura]

orange:)
Most of those folks who believe it is sinful to drink alcohlic beverages do not use it in any way. But a few do use it to cook with because the alcohol is boiled or baked off in the process of cooking.
As answer to your question about Jesus and wine here is an article I wrote on the subject.
Of The Cup, Wine, And Blood
There are those who claim the Jesus never drank wine. They give a number of reasons including to claim that he was a member of the Essenee sect which was strictly religious as perhaps John the Baptizer might have been. Actually John was more likely a Nazorite. They were men who made a special religious vow which included that they could not drink any strong drink, no wine, no grape juice, in fact they could consume no part of the grape plant. The entire obligations they were sworn to can be found in the book of Numbers.
Jesus not only drank wine, he also made many gallons of it out of water. Jesus was the perfect sinless Jewish man. As such he participated in all Jewish celebrations, festivals, and rituals. Some of them required the consumption of wine for centuries before the birth of Christ and they still do.
When Jesus instituted the sacrament of the communion meal of the Last Supper (the Eucharist) it was early spring, long before fresh grapes were available from which to squeeze juice. So when Jesus spoke of "the fruit of the vine" during his last Seder (Passover Meal) He was referring to wine. In that desert country there was no way to preserve grape juice which turns to wine automatically if not kept below 34 degrees fahrenheit. A wild yeast that grows with the grapes in the field causes that to happen. Washing the grapes does not remove much of it. Boiling will kill it, but if you've ever drank boiled grape juice it's very likely you'll never do it again.
The word "wine" appears in the Holy Bible 260 times in 236 verses. The word "cup", which is often used in reference to wine, appears 64 time in 57 verses. The word blood appears 408 times in 342 verse. If a person looks up every reference to those three words (In the context to which they are used) and correlates them with each other as indicated, and still believes that Jesus did not drink wine or that he did not consecrate wine into His blood when he established the Eucharist sacrament, they paid scant attention to what they had read or they are as close minded as a bank vault with the door welded shut.
Peace ans kindness,
Fred (arcura)
:) :) :)

[Fr_Chuck]

To answer the one question, various groups, Methodist, penticostals, some Lutheran and others use grape juice instead of wine.

We do offer grape juice for those in the AA program, some are so strong in the program they are afraid that even the wine would make them feel like they are breaking the program. So if we are told ahead of time someone is there that would prefer juice we make it available. Since Jesus changed water into wine, we figure he can change the juice also.

There is one group I know of ( LDS , mormons) that use water with their commmunion instead of wine or juice.

[arcura]

Bishop Chuck,
I agree with your post.
But I wanted to mention that I'm an alcoholic and have been sober for 27 years.
During that time I have sipped wine of Christ's blood many times.
By His grace I have never had that cause a thirst to go back to drinking booze of any sort.
Though for the first 3 months of sobriety I abstained form the cup, after I talked with other Catholics and those others that partake of the Eucharist who had no desire to start drinking, I started sipping from the cup of my Lord.
One drop is as effective as a mouthful.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Fr_Chuck]

I fully understand, in the last church I was a priest at, we had an AA group that meet at our church. Many of the non church AA members would visit our church from time to time. Somewhere along the lines the person over that group at our church asked if we could offer a juice instead of wine. I was always of the mind blessed cup is blessed cup and God knows the intent of the persons heart. I did not want, as Paul also warned my actions to stop someone from coming and finding the Lord.

Since our faith believes in the transformation of the wine and bread, I figure that God can transform the juice as easy as he could the wine.
( or even water since he did trasform that into wine before)

I was glad to see many of the group just coming to church and did not want some of their first experiences in a church perhaps to shun them.

But yes personally I never believed that one sip could do anay damage physcially and it would do a lot of good spiritially

[arcura]

I tend to agree with you, Bishop,
As the angel said to Mary, "With God all things are possible".
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Starman]

Cooking with wine is OK. It's not wine itself that is condemned, it's the excessive use of it that can lead to drunkenness which makes a person lose partial control of his body and mind. So Jesus provided wine,

.

[b]Isaiah 24:20['b]
The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,.


Proverbs 23:21
For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

The Bible tells us that wine may be used also for medicinal purposes and to temporarily alleviate deep sadness caused by grief or to help us cope fear of immediate death.


Proverbs 31:6
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

The Apostle Paul recommended it to Timothy

1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

But its excessive use disqualified a person from leadership responsibilities within the church.and even from fellowship.

Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Titus 1:6-8
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given too much wine, teachers of good things;


KJV

Cooking with wine is OK. It's not wine itself that is condemned, it's the excessive use of it that can lead to drunkenness which makes a person lose partial control of his body and mind. So Jesus didn't provide wine for excessive use.

.

Isaiah 24:20
The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,.


Proverbs 23:21
For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

The Bible tells us that wine may be used also for medicinal purposes and to temporarily alleviate deep sadness caused by grief or to help us cope fear of immediate death.


Proverbs 31:6
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

The Apostle Paul recommended it to Timothy

1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

But its excessive use disqualified a person from leadership responsibilities within the church.and even from fellowship.

Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Titus 1:6-8
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given too much wine, teachers of good things;


KJV

[arcura]

Well Said,
Fred

[Hypatia]

While I sip my martini I thank God I am non religious and spiritual. Cheers!

Hypatia

[magprob]

Anything done in excess, that adversly affects one's life, I think is wrong. If you're slammed drunk every day, you're not doing anything right. You're probably not doing anything but being drunk! What about pot, weed, maryjane, grass. Is it, by nature, evil or a natural sin? If someone smokes a little here and there to relax or what ever... as opposed to a person that stays stoned 24/7? I personally don't use it but from what I have seen, pot smokers are much more "mellow" than a bar full of drunks. I think Jesus drank wine (not Welchs grape juice) but I doubt that he got falling down drunk. He did get rowdy once though when he tore up the money changers tables... maybe he drank a little too much and wanted to kick some but.:D

[Hypatia]

I think from looking at history and how children drank wine and water for centuries, you can pretty much count on them drinking. I think the drinking is a sin came into effect to control those sloshy people who drank in excess. We were barbarians you know, And drunk barbarians can get bloody, mean and well a lot of bad can and did come from these days. The dark ages were dark for a reason. Hell, think back and you will find the last 100 years is a great leap compared to past years. I think the church got tired of this uncivility and made it a crime against God to get drunk. Other churches took it to various levels from no drinking to occasional. To cover the fact that drinking was legal before this church law was passed, they changed minor things like Jesus drank grape juice not wine etc etc. Do you think unfermented hot fruit juices were a constant to a poor Jesus?
Reality sayd no refrigeration, more hot beer, warm wine and water.

If you get drunk often, its not such a good thing. I totally agree with you on excess. To drink occasionally, get a good spin on is ok too, so long as you can refrain from being a complete dumb as$ and peeing on your friends couch.

When we view history lets not only listen to scholors give oration on their version of the facts but let us view history with a practical mind and through our own eyes. We will begin to see the flaws of mans opinion and the constant facts of time.

Hypatia

[Morganite]

I know that some Christians and most Muslims do not drink any alcohol. My first question is, can they cook with alcohol? Because with most recipes, the actual alcohol evaporates during the cooking.

My second question is for Christians who don't drink alcohol. Didn't Jesus drink? I remember reading in the NT that some people called him a drunkard, and also that he turned water into wine at a wedding. Or maybe what he drank wasn't alcohol as we know it today?

Anyways I'm just really curious about both, so if anyone wants to enlighten me I'd appreciate it, thanks!

1. Cooking makes the alcoholic content of the wine, etc, evaporate so that the product is non-alcoholic.

2. I am a teetotal Christian. In the Middle East I drank the unfermented juice of the grape. I have no way of knowing what Jesus drank. I will post some passages of scripture that cause confusions for Christians - and - perhaps for others.

Leviticus 10:8-11
8 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses

Numbers 6:1-3
1 ¶ AND the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate [themselves] to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate [themselves] unto the LORD:
3 He shall separate [himself] from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

Deuteronomy 14:26
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


Deuteronomy 29:5-6
5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Judges 13:4
4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean [thing]:

Judges 13:7
7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean [thing]: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.


1 Samuel 1:15-16
15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I [am] a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.
16 Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto.

Proverbs 31:4-7
4 [It is] not for kings, O Lemuel, [it is] not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Isaiah 5:11
11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, [that] they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, [till] wine inflame them!


Isaiah 5:22-23
22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Isaiah 24:9
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.

Isaiah 28:7
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble [in] judgment.


Micah 2:11
11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, [saying], I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

Luke 1:13-16
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1); "Wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps." (Deuteronomy 32:33); "Be not drunk with wine wherein is excess." (Ephesians 5:18).

In the Old Testament 'wine' is translated from the Hebrew yayin which comes from an unused root meaning to effervesce. This is probably related to the fermentation process. The NT word translated as wine comes from the Hebrew root.

Most of the passages I have quoted seem to suggest that the use of fermented beverages, including 'strong' drinks,' is antithetical to righteousness. This is, I believe, suggested from the context. There are other passages in which wine is the customary drink, but it is worth noting that those who separate themselves (sanctification) for a holy purpose abstained from wine and strong drink.

I will suggest that perhaps Jesus drank unfermented wine, but the scriptural record is silent on that matter, so any conclusion is unsafe.

Ethyl alcohol is produced by yeast fermentation in grains and fibers containing sugar. The amount of alcohol in wine and beer is normally less than 10 percent because fermentation stops when the ethyl alcohol concentration reaches this level. In modern times, however, the amount in alcoholic beverages has been increased by distillation.

The availability of beverages with higher concentrations of alcohol has increased the number of social and medical problems associated with ingesting it. Some conditions that are increased among those who use alcohol include cancers of the oral cavity, larynx, and esophagus; cirrhosis of the liver; degenerative diseases of the central nervous system; and higher accidental death rates, both in respect of automobile and pedestrian accidents.





M:)RGANITE

[arcura]

Big News. Jesus drank wine and did all Jews of his day up till now.
I Jesus time there was no way to keep grape juice from turning into wine.
The only time they had grape juice to drink was during harvest time.
The Passover dinner is celebrated with several glasses or cups of wine from a time hundreds of years before Jesus drank it.
Jesus even spoke of putting new wine into old wine skins.
Sour wine in his day is what we call vinegar now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Morganite]

I never heard of that before, Call it me being ignorant maybe, but Jesus drinking grape juice, that is so funny, I fell off my chair and broke an arm. Wine was such an important symbol and tradition in Jesus days.

Joe

You were not drinking the unfermented stuff then?

M:pRGANITE