[Criado]

Also one of the reasons Jesus didnot ask was that birthdays were not celebrated at that time in history.

I just disagree a little. Birthdays are already being celebrated during that time. Mark 6:21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;

I think the reason why Christ did not command us to celebrate His birthday because we should abide with the Truth. Isn't it that Christ was begotten by the Father even before the creation? (Hebrew 5:1-5) Thus, setting birthday in man's way would be a lie because it is not His real birthday.

[sndbay]

I think the reason why Christ did not command us to celebrate His birthday because we should abide with the Truth. Isn't it that Christ was begotten by the Father even before the creation? (Hebrew 5:1-5) Thus, setting birthday in man's way would be a lie because it is not His real birthday.

As a Christian it is important that we acknowledge and worship Christ Jesus the begotten Son of God. And as you said, Christ was with God from the beginning as John 1:1 speaks of Christ, as the Word.
I believe the world wants to celebrate Christmas, to worship the arrival of the begotten Son. But of course today, satan's work has made it into a commercial holiday, rather then just God's Truth of His Son.

The scripture you noted Hebrew 5:1-4 was the subject and time frame of what was spoken.

Hebrews 5:1-4 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Then there is a question noted in verse 5.

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Then the Truth spoken in answer to that question in verse 6..

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

So I would say Christ's birth as a man into the world, begotten of the Father has been set forth not to be a lie.. . But rather that we should believe in Truth as you had said, and speak of that Truth being born unto this world.
Bringing forth the Truth should be acceptable.. And in my opinion, God does that in many ways to those that will hear.

[sndbay]

It is written that Jesus asked us to commemorate his death and not his birth. Luke 22:19

KJV Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The Truth is to commemorate and give thanks for the sacrifice Christ made for us with His body and blood.

(It says nothing of Not remembering His birth.. ) You have added that, so that can not be known as truth.

[Moparbyfar]

sndbay, you may notice that Eccl 7:1 states "A name is better than good oil, and the day of death than the day of one's being born."

Surely if Jesus birth is the most important of all men to celebrate, God would have recorded the exact date in the bible?

[sndbay]

sndbay, you may notice that Eccl 7:1 states "A name is better than good oil, and the day of death than the day of one's being born."

Surely if Jesus birth is the most important of all men to celebrate, God would have recorded the exact date in the bible?

The twist of word is not what I want to debate, yet I did not say most important to celebrate. However I do believe the birth of Christ is very important just as all Truth of Him is very important. Christ birth is recorded from the beginning down through the generations. That is why Eve is called the mother of all living.. Without Christ we were all doomed . It is very important we understand the Key of David which God states open the doors of heaven. John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

This is all important in that it brings us to worship Christ as our Savior, and that we find Christ body and blood worthy to have been sacificed..

Eccl 7:1 is telling us our name is better then oil because it shows your goodness and love for others. That you are not hidding as a theft or murder. And the day of death is better then the day you were born because life is not has good here on earth as it will be in heaven.

Surely you can see the importants of understanding and acknowledging Christ and all His Truth... He is all Glory, Honor, and Praise

[Criado]

I don't think setting His birthday is truth neither. The first reason is we don't know the exact date of His birth. Secondly, 1 Corinthians 4:6 does not allow us to: And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

This the only verse I know that Jesus said how He wants us to commemorate Him: Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me

Matthew 28:20 states Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
If Christmas is such an important event for the Christians, did Jesus forget? I don't think so.

[sndbay]

I don't think setting His birthday is truth neither. The first reason is we don't know the exact date of His birth. .

Go back and read the previous discussion that have shown the facts on this as it is written.The bible when read and taken as truth can answer questions, and I do not for a moment believe, God left out anything.

Secondly, 1 Corinthians 4:6 does not allow us to: And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. .

This gospel was given so that man does not put themselves above what is written.
Read further 1 Corinthians 4:16 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

This the only verse I know that Jesus said how He wants us to commemorate Him: Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me

Matthew 28:20 states Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
If Christmas is such an important event for the Christians, did Jesus forget? I don't think so.

In all that you have offered in scripture added to what I am saying.. The Bibile is the Word and the Word is Christ. All that is written is of Truth. That would include Christ's Birth.

Look back to what first started this #22Originally Posted by Criado
I think the reason why Christ did not command us to celebrate His birthday because we should abide with the Truth. Isn't it that Christ was begotten by the Father even before the creation? (Hebrew 5:1-5) Thus, setting birthday in man's way would be a lie because it is not His real birthday.
Reply Sndbay = Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

But rather that we should believe in Truth as you had said, and speak of that Truth being born unto this world.
Bringing forth the Truth should be acceptable.. And in my opinion, God does that in many ways to those that will hear. From what I read you agree with this...

[Criado]

Go back and read the previous discussion that have shown the facts on this as it is written.The bible when read and taken as truth can answer questions, and I do not for a moment believe, God left out anything.

Are you referring to your post #10 regarding this matter?

Look back to what first started this #22Originally Posted by Criado
I think the reason why Christ did not command us to celebrate His birthday because we should abide with the Truth. Isn't it that Christ was begotten by the Father even before the creation? (Hebrew 5:1-5) Thus, setting birthday in man's way would be a lie because it is not His real birthday.
Reply Sndbay = Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

But rather that we should believe in Truth as you had said, and speak of that Truth being born unto this world.
Bringing forth the Truth should be acceptable.. And in my opinion, God does that in many ways to those that will hear. From what I read you agree with this...

I think I made myself clear in post #22. It is undeniably true that Jesus came here in flesh but "Jesus was born" is one thing and "setting His birth date" is another thing.

[sndbay]

I think I made myself clear in post #22. It is undeniably true that Jesus came here in flesh but "Jesus was born" is one thing and "setting His birth date" is another thing.

Yeah and I agree the established born was Jesus as evidence, but also factor in that which is written, the given conclusion as to when His birth was according to Hebrew time frame. # 10 did offer that breakdown as found in the KJV bible

The original discussion went to saying how holidays today do not hold true to the exact motive as what the scriptures contain. Where the breakdown helps to take us back to truth rather then traditions of man.

[Criado]

Yeah and I agree the established born was Jesus as evidence, but also factor in that which is written, the given conclusion as to when His birth was according to Hebrew time frame. # 10 did offer that breakdown as found in the KJV bible

But the problem is the accuracy of the reckoning. I understand that the intention of celebrating is good but I don't think we should.

[sndbay]

But the problem is the accuracy of the reckoning. I understand that the intention of celebrating is good but I don't think we should.

And intention for celebration is within the heart, and not as tradition has shown it. So also safe to assume Easter should not be tradition as it is today but rather as Christ being our Passover in Honor and Praise within the heart, mind and soul

[Criado]

Yup; but then again, the real problem is the accuracy of reckoning. Sometimes even if our intention is good or lawful, it may not be expedient.

[classyT]

I was going through my questions on this site and found this is a question I believe to be very much relevant and on my mind today. I have noticed on my FB page that most people ( Christians and non) are much more likely to believe the bible isn't absolute truth. They applaud leaders who believe the bible is not as much black and white as it is gray.

I think the church in general has failed. I believe it is because our pulpits are not preaching grace like Paul preached it. it is the goodness of God that causes man to repent. That isn't what we hear on Sunday mornings. I heard a pastor say it was the goodness of God that SOMETIMES causes men to repent. Their thinking being people will sin like crazy if they think they are always forgiven if they are saved. They are afraid if they tell everyone there isn't anything they can do to be out of God's favor, people will live sinful lives.


However Paul is clear on this topic, where sin abounds... grace super abounds. If God isn't afraid of this message... why are we?

I personally believe if people understood the gospel of grace, they wouldn't be so attracted to spiritual leaders who no longer believe God's word is absolute truth. There will always be those that need to believe the bible is mostly gray, but I submit that if grace was preached appropriately, most people wouldn't object to believing God at his word. The bible says.. "Thy word is Truth." I believe it. I see that as freeing. But then I know I am loved unconditionally. Not because of what I do or don't do but because of what Christ is and has done.

The more I understand how much I am loved, how much Jesus paid for and how I am no longer under any condemnation;the less I sin. I am a big believer that believing right really does make you live right. Believing the bible is absolute truth is no longer a scary or offensive thought if we understand grace. Any thoughts?

[jakester]

Hi classy - I agree with what you are saying. I'd like to add that the reason "preachers" shun that kind of message is that they are more inclined to want to rule over people through fear and intimidation. So for them, teaching about grace gives them little control over the the flock and that's not good for them.

Secondly, where there is grace preached, I think the church has still failed because although people are hearing the message of grace, people are indifferent to it. America is a country where we ask "what does my neighbor have to do with me?" People are selfish and unwilling to bear with others and be about others. People are concerned for their own pleasure and have little time for others. The reason the church has failed I think is largely because though it has the message of grace, people do not care enough about others to bring hope to those who seek it. I hear this from many people, myself included, about how the church talks a lot about community and family, but it is only an illusion.

I think it takes a little love from a few to inspire many.

[classyT]

Jakester,

Burn... ouch. Yeah we are definitely off course.

I think you are right even when grace is preached people are indifferent. But could it be they really don't understand it. The bible says we love him because he first loved us. Could it be we don't comprehend how much we are loved?

I am struggling right now because the church I attend is doing an entire sermon series on the 10 commandments. I am at a complete loss as to why they would preach the ministry of death when they could be unveiling the loveliness and beauty of the Lord Jesus Christ. I guess until our pastors and leaders get a revelation on love and grace our pulpits are bound to be law oriented and self focused. Just my thoughts.

[dwashbur]

I get what you're saying, but I always have difficulty with the phrase "absolute truth." The problem is that it means different things to different people. Too many people think it means "everything is literally true." If that's the case then 1 Sam 13:1 is a problem, because it says "Saul was years old when he became king." Our translations usually supply "30" because a few very late copies of the Septuagint have it. In the Hebrew, there's no number. So I have difficulty seeing such a statement as "literally true." Revelation 4:6-8? Are those monsters literal? If they are, heaven sounds like one scary place! The list goes on. One person sees these things and understands that we're dealing with various types of literature and language, figures of speech, word pictures and all the rest, as well as problems with the way the Bible has come down to us, a la 1 Sam 13:1 (obviously a word has dropped out somewhere along the way). But another person sees those problems and can't acknowledge them, because it's all or nothing for them: either we have a perfect King James just the way Paul wrote it, or we're tearing down the Scriptures and the faith.

The truth is, there ARE a lot of gray areas in the Bible. At least one person lies and God praises them for it. There's a lot of that sort of thing, and we don't do ourselves any good by not facing it and dealing with it.

[jakester]

Tess - I believe that there are people in the church who struggle with their self-worth, having been beaten down by the law... I've been there before, part of churches that did that, and presently know people who are coming out of those environments. But interestingly enough, those same people are concerned for the lives of others because even though their knowledge of God's grace is a struggle, they have enough knowledge of his love and grace to put that knowledge into action. However, there are people who prefer the law because it fits their worldview: they already believe they are better than sinners, that they aren't like the other slobs out there. Obviously people who think that way don't understand God nor themselves.

On the other hand, I've been part of churches that are very good about communicating the love and grace of God. I didn't detect that there was a spirit of oppression that was interfering with people's understanding of beauty of Christ. And yet people hardly knew each other at all. I would talk with people and ask how they knew so and so and they would say "oh, I know that person here in church but don't know them that well." These folks were coming to church for years and didn't know their fellow congregants at all. If love starts in the household of God and people don't really know each other at all, how has the the true love of God penetrated their hearts?

I think that in this present age, there is simultaneously a need for love and yet a belief that we are special. Kids are growing up being told they are special and as a result, they become self-absorbed, petulant, little monsters. Grace and the love of Jesus may not penetrate the armor of such people, so that is the place the law of God has... it brings people to the knowledge of sin that can lead to repentance. Simply telling somebody that God loves them and trying to unveil "the loveliness and beauty of the Lord Jesus Christ" might be received as "of course God loves me, I'm awesome."

Your point is well-taken and I think it is a worthy message; I think that it really depends upon the person and where he is at in terms of his self-perspective. Your idea may be well received from people who desperately need that assurance of God's love. But others need a different message to get them to the place where they understand that they are not worthy. Matthew 24 tells us that in the latter days men will fall away from the faith and the love of many will grow cold. It seems to me that we are living in that age. That is my take anyway.

[Tuttyd]

I get what you're saying, but I always have difficulty with the phrase "absolute truth." The problem is that it means different things to different people. Too many people think it means "everything is literally true." If that's the case then 1 Sam 13:1 is a problem, because it says "Saul was years old when he became king." Our translations usually supply "30" because a few very late copies of the Septuagint have it. In the Hebrew, there's no number. So I have difficulty seeing such a statement as "literally true." Revelation 4:6-8? Are those monsters literal? If they are, heaven sounds like one scary place! The list goes on. One person sees these things and understands that we're dealing with various types of literature and language, figures of speech, word pictures and all the rest, as well as problems with the way the Bible has come down to us, a la 1 Sam 13:1 (obviously a word has dropped out somewhere along the way). But another person sees those problems and can't acknowledge them, because it's all or nothing for them: either we have a perfect King James just the way Paul wrote it, or we're tearing down the Scriptures and the faith.

The truth is, there ARE a lot of gray areas in the Bible. At least one person lies and God praises them for it. There's a lot of that sort of thing, and we don't do ourselves any good by not facing it and dealing with it.

I don't often visit here anymore. But I have to say that this is very well put. Well done Dave.

[classyT]

Tuttyd-

is that you TUT?

Jake

I hear you, I do. The thing is if grace was preached properly there would be less of self. Grace is all about Jesus and when people get that, self becomes less and less important. There just isn't any room for self-righteous people.

I believe the law is a natural way of believing. In other words, people who don't even claim to be Christians get the law. If you do good you get good, it you do bad, you get bad. Grace is NOT the natural way to think. I think the reason our churches are a mess is because if they DO preach grace, they balance it out with a little law. Just in case someone gets it in their head they can run wild.

If grace were taught the way Paul taught it I don't think we would be cold or lukewarm. If Jesus were glorified in the pulpits and revealed we would be on fire. Unfortunately, that isn't being done. Instead many churches are focusing on what we as Christian aren't but should be. We already know that. I want to know what we are in Christ, what we have in Christ. That is exciting.. we are a new creation. But you would never know it on Sunday mornings in America. Most places are preaching what we ought to be and guess what. This is why Church is in the state it is in. Even most worships songs are all about us and what we are going to do. "I surrender all...I surrender all." me me me me me. Let's worship Jesus, lets put him in his rightful place on the throne. Let's sing about him and leave us out of it. Frankly, we suck.

Just some thoughts.


Dave,

The monsters you are referring to are the living creatures around the throne of God... right? I don't know why they couldn't be literal creatures around God's throne. But even if they are symbolic, it doesn't make the bible not truth. I don't get your thought process.

Please give me the example of when someone lied and God praised him for it. I'm not sure what you are referring to but would love to read up on that.

[dwashbur]

First of all, if Jesus' comments are any indication, God doesn'ht have a literal throne because God is a spirit. And if there are monsters like that near the throne, I'm staying away. It should be obvious that these are symbolic; eyes all over them, inside and out? That's way beyond ridiculous, and if God is really creating beasts like that, one might question his sobriety.

And the lie? Joshua 2. Not only did God praise her, but she got to be part of Jesus' lineage.