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iamarcin · Mar 9, 2006, 09:51 AM

If religion is a delusion then it should be recodnized as one and treated
All delusions are harmfull in some whay
Delusions even bening ones prevent a person from the truth
From learning and evolving
I don't know what the point of life is but I doubt it is to live in your own personal delusion

RickJ · Mar 9, 2006, 09:52 AM

You are right. IF it were a delusion, then it would be pointless and harmful.

... but I think that imagining that the universe came into being by itself and from nothing is far more delusional than imagining it was created by intellegent design (and the intellegent designer being the focus of religion)

NeedKarma · Mar 9, 2006, 09:58 AM

So what was the intelligent designer doing before the universe was created?

RickJ · Mar 9, 2006, 10:01 AM

A darn good question, admittedly... but because we ask that question, should we think that it's delusional to think that there is a creator?

iamarcin · Mar 9, 2006, 10:05 AM

Because I believe that its more delusional to think that there was one

NeedKarma · Mar 9, 2006, 10:06 AM

That not my position but the OP's. My point is that we don't know what went on the moment before creation whether there is a being in charge or not. I'm not delving into that delusional discussion so I'll step away. :)

iamarcin · Mar 9, 2006, 10:09 AM

I guess what I am wondering about is weather it is right to try to influence someone so they fall out of their delusion

So far I have believed that it is not right either way
But have been chosing not to disdelude others by preaching my atheism

Disdelude is a better word(if it is one) than enlighten
Post if you know a better one

kp2171 · Mar 9, 2006, 10:32 AM

If my personal delusion makes me better person, gives me strength, makes me more compassionate toward others and generous... then I'm comfortable with my little personal delusion

Call me weak, ignorant, blind, brainwashed, OK.

I'm happy here in my little delusional world.

As for is it right to cause someone to fall out of their delusion... if you're asking should one be open to thoughtful debate whether a believer or agnostic or atheist, well yes. Its fine in my opinion to talk this through.

I had a class once led by a dominican monk discussion world religions. In the class was an atheist. The monk was very, very kind to this person... asking genuine questions and respecting his answers and opinions. The monk, I believe, was truly open and interested in thoughtful discussion.

Anyone who feels threatened, whether a believer or not, by the simple act of discussion has other issues to deal with

RickJ · Mar 9, 2006, 10:35 AM

I call you none of the above. And anyone who does is wrong. You and I, while not having theology in common, do have in common the desire to be compassionate and generous to others.

kp2171 · Mar 9, 2006, 10:57 AM

Even the opposite idea, of introducing the concept of religion to nonbelievers, is a touchy issue.

I was once in a multichurch meeting. We did work with low income families and single mothers. Part of our calling is to evangelize. To many that means in your face, bible thumping. Within this group that simply meant spreading the message of what we believed through our actions, but also letting those we help know it was our faith that led us to help them.

Well, evangelism is one of the hardest things to do for some. Again, this doesn't always mean go door to door or to stand on a sidewalk with signs. I've never done either. It can be as simple as reaching out to others in need and letting them see your faith as a source of personal strength. We work with inner city kids every year, getting them school supplies. When they come by the only thing they hear or see about our faith is that we are the members of a congregation, in a church, helping them in a real way. No pressure, no bible thumping.

Well... even in the church meeting there were several people who were very, very much against even mentioning God to the people we were helping. It was amazing to be in a church, meeting with people of the faith, and having some treat the name of God as a four letter word. So even the opposite idea, introducing the idea of God to a nonbeliever, is uncomfortable for some.

The point is to address the original question... I think an atheist or agnostic should not have to question whether it is OK to engage in a discussion that may lead someone to "fall out of their delusion".

Of course it is OK. Hopefully all sides can be kind, courteous, and thoughtful... traits that are not unique to any position.

RickJ · Mar 9, 2006, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by iamarcin

i guess what i am wondering about is weather it is right to try to influence someone so they fall out of their delusion

No. And likewise it wouldn't be right for me to approach someone who has no faith and try to convince them that they are deluded.

Now, if someone is asking you (or me) for guidance - or otherwise expressing an interest, then fair game.

... just my opinion of course. ;)

jduke44 · Mar 9, 2006, 01:53 PM

Thanks rick for clarifying what iamarcin has asked. I think compassion is the way to go. I also think it is right for me to allow a person to know my beliefs if the opportunity presented itself. For example, kp2171 was doing work for low income families. Why should he say that his faith has brought them there. If it sparked one person to ask why or what do you mean, he created an opportunity to talk about it. If people seemed irritated with the mention of God, then yes maybe the perosn should back of a little and let the action tlak for itself. Another example, is salesmanship. A good salesman should never take no for an answer. I get irritated at that and think the person should back off. Do you think they would. A good salesman would not.

If a person feels adimate about their "delusion" then why shouldn't they want to talk about it to others? I hope my points were on the track of what the question was.

orange · Mar 9, 2006, 03:17 PM

My difficulty with using the word delusion here is that it makes me think of my biological mother, who was a severe paranoid schizophrenic. One of her long-standing delusions was that Jesus and John Lennon (both of them together) had specially chosen her to overthrow the government of Canada. She received messages from them in newspapers and in magazines, where she saw certain patterns of words that were actually special "codes" specifically for her. SHE was delusional!

Clinically speaking, a delusion is defined as a fixed false belief, which other people around you do not believe in. For example, you might think that the police are watching you constantly, or that your friends are poisoning your food, or that you are destined to overthrow the government, as my mother thought. The delusion persists even though no one else believes you. Given that, most people who believe in a higher power or religion are not delusional. First of all, religion and spirituality is not fixed. People can change or alter their beliefs whenever they like, they have the freedom of will to do so. Whereas a truly delusional person has no choice, and can not change their beliefs, no matter how much you argue with them about it. Also, religion or belief in a creator is something that many, many people believe in, so it's not false in the way a delusion is.

Severely ill people often pick religion as something to obsess about, and so do cult leaders and followers. However, the real test of sanity or insanity is how the person conducts themselves in their day to day living. If someone has a strong religious faith, but has a job, a family, pays taxes, etc, and is able to function in society then that is not delusional. If that person was really delusional about their faith, they would not be able to care for themselves or others, or carry on a normal life. The delusion would be all-consuming.

I don't think it's delusional to believe in something that you can't see or prove. I am a strong believer in science, and while many scientific facts have been proven, there are also many scientific theories that haven't been proven. However, I still choose to believe in them without total proof. Does that make me delusional?

Fr_Chuck · Mar 9, 2006, 04:12 PM

First I would say that of course religion is not a delusion.

With that said, where and how do you believe that all delusions are harmful. I may believe that my wonderful wife is better looking than Miss Universe, at least to me, does that harm me, or is it harmful to my nature.

My dad ( now passed) does his belief his last few months that he was back in the war and commanding troops again, did that hurt him at all, or did it perhaps make his last days more enjoyable for him.

I may beelive I am the most handsome man on this board, does that hurt anyone

Iwould ask or reflect thata your question is based on an assumtion that perhaps is not true or can't be proven

Next is the statement that it prevents you from learning, why would it prevent you from leaning?

My cat is white, my sheets are white, I can say that perhaps my sheets were made from cats, Separate statements that may or may not be true can not be connecgect to prove a truth that is not present

kp2171 · Mar 10, 2006, 01:33 PM

Mkay, iamarcin...

So what exactly is your idea for treating the "delusion" of religion?

Are you intending to mandate that we religious zealots get drugged, shock-therapy, etc, Is this, in your mind, a program that should be run by the govt? Will this be funded by state or federal taxes?

If we, as a society, are going to characterize the belief in a religion as a mental defect, then what jobs should the religious not be able to work? Should we be rounded up in camps?

I'm just curious. You've made up your mind that religious belief is a mental disorder. OK. Your prerogative. I'm sure many other agree on some level or another. Bit what persists in your post is a desire to treat this "delusion".

So what's your proposal?

And by the way, should we amend the first amendment to read

Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religious delusion, in fact let's just prohibit the practice?

kp2171 · Mar 10, 2006, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I may believe I am the most handsome man on this board, does that hurt anyone

well now that's just silly. I'm the most handsome guy here.

well... after a few tequillas its true. I also become rich and witty and bulletproof and invisible. =)

31pumpkin · Mar 10, 2006, 08:18 PM

Partypooper here!

Delusion is not a playful word. It is a symptom of a psychotic illness. Have studied it some. I believe it is an attack on the minds from Satan's principalities. I really think it's not at all funny.They really hear voices.

I think I'm moving to another subject. A little wine maybe... lol!

orange · Mar 10, 2006, 08:35 PM

I agree... "delusion" , "deluded", and "delusional" are words that get thrown around too lightly.

DrJ · Mar 13, 2006, 06:46 PM

"the moment before creation"

What makes you think that moments existed before anything was created? Were "moments" not created as well? What about Time? What about Nothingness? Can you picture Nothingness? Do you think that a Human could ever grasp the notion about what there was before there was Something?

God is not some architect that was just sitting on His *** before He created the Heavens and the Earth. God is Nothing... God is Everything... God is Anything... God just Is.

Reminds me of (another, I know) interesting quote... that it goes along with exactly what Im saying here but I still find it interesting...

"The chief consolation for nature's imperfection in the case of man is that not even for God are all things possible - for he cannot, even if he wishes, kill himself, the supreme boon that nature has bestowed on man among all the penalties of life."

As for the original post...

Religion IS a delusion. But you know what? Life is a delusion. We are ALL living delusions. No one is truly who they are... no one. Without delusions, we would not know how to live with ourselves. We are imperfect beings. We have subjected ourselves to this from the ery beginning. We have stripped ourselves from God to live this Life of Delusion.

Sure, in our delusions, we have concluded "other" delusions that, in our efforts for perfection, we have deemed unhealthy and harmful in some way. But that, in itself, is also a delusion.

Yes, delusions keep us from the truth. But we chose this delusion. We chose to forget the Truth.

RickJ · Mar 14, 2006, 03:57 AM

As another poster said, "delusion" is just too strong - and I add too nebulous (hehe, pun intended for anyone who knows the other name of the Helix Nebula) - for a reasonable discussion or debate.

Originally Posted by drjizzle

Life is a delusion. We are ALL living delusions. No one is truly who they are... no one.

This only beggs questions.
To someone who really holds this belief we must ask:
1. What is your definition of "delusion"... and define any terms you use within the definition (especially if you use such terms as "real" or "reality" or "fact" or "truth").