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    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #41

    Jun 12, 2008, 11:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    Test: A random sampling of swans from each continent where swans are indigenous produces only white swans.
    That voids your research.
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    sassyT Posts: 184, Reputation: 7
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    #42

    Jun 12, 2008, 12:07 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by achampio21

    Again you totally missed the point. Maybe it is I that needs to make statements more simple to understand. Or maybe you could re-read the exact same post that you quoted me on and realize that you just made yourself look incredibly slow.
    "I don't know it all. I barely know a little. But if that little helps someone, then I guess I learned even more!! "

    As you have admitted your ignorance in your signature, you really barely know much.
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    achampio21 Posts: 220, Reputation: 15
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    #43

    Jun 12, 2008, 12:21 PM
    [QUOTE=sassyT]I am a science masters student so I know what a theory is. Scientific theories may be made of SOME facts but it does not mean the theory itself is a fact.
    A thoery is based on observation, limited knowledge, hypthesis, An assumption based on limited information or [U]knowledge[/U]; a conjecture
    QUOTE]

    So we have established that you are still just a student.

    And by the way I am going to make this last statement and quit for the day because I am getting to emotionally involved in this discussion and I don't normally do that.

    What you arguing is the same as someone saying that the crayon they are using to color cookie monster is black. And you would come back with "you are so ignorant, that crayon is NOT black it is all different colors combined to make one color so therefore it is not black it is.... blah blah blah." BUT WHAT DOES THE CRAYOLA BOX SAY IT IS... FREAKIN BLACK!!

    So yeah in a souped up way you are right black is a combination of... (insert all scientific data here) but the simple way to explain it is well it's black and if I want to call it dark gray, I can. You know why... because I CAN.

    Credendovidis has his own way of thinking. And as I have already PROVEN, he accepts others views too. But that doesn't mean he has to think or believe the same as them.

    You on the other hand seem to have this thing about arguing with people that don't see things the same way you do. And as I have PROVEN you are very offensive and demeaning when someone challenges your views.

    I don't believe the same way Crededonvidis does. I believe there is a God and that He created life. And Credo and I have already discussed this. And you know what I am on this post because I felt compelled to stand up for him because he respected my views and gave me his opinions and views in a very positive and sometimes funny manner. You on the other hand are not positive or funny in your statements. You actually attack those that don't think like you or challenge your ideas.

    So think on this dear sassyT, do you think that accepting that not everyone views the world as you do is possible? And by accepting I mean being okay with it, not just admitting that others don't think like you. And also by accepting I mean not feeling like or claiming that everyone that doesn't think like you is wrong or ignorant or stupid or all the other things you like to say to people that don't think like you. Because it's not very nice and not very becoming. And you can't think that someone will value your opinion later on when every other time you give your opinion it's rude and demeaning to others. You even made it a point to IM Credo to be rude. I mean come on. GET OVER IT! HE Doesn't"T THINK LIKE YOU AND DOESN"T BELIEVE IN A DEITY!! It's really okay. REALLY.
    WVHiflyer's Avatar
    WVHiflyer Posts: 384, Reputation: 34
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    #44

    Jun 12, 2008, 12:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Than it makes sense ? May be to you, but not to me !
    Where ever a deity is required to explain something, all logical thinking is thrown out of the window.
    Why do you need an unproven to exist deity with unproven to exist powers and capabilities to explain something that has today already a proper scientific explanation ?

    ;)

    I couldn't agree more w/ first 3 sentences, but I only have a minor quibble w/ the last: I don't even need that entity to explain things that don't yet have a "proper scientific explanation." I wait long enough, I'm sure it'll happen. <G> I can't not believe in some paranormal phenomena but that doesn't mean I need a supernatural entity to explain it. (Too bad some scientists are too willing to dismiss those things before they're properly investigated.)
    achampio21's Avatar
    achampio21 Posts: 220, Reputation: 15
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    #45

    Jun 12, 2008, 12:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    "I don't know it all. I barely know a little. But if that little helps someone, then I guess I learned even more!! "

    As you have admitted your ignorance in your signature, you really barely know much.
    I obviously know more about grammar and spelling than little miss science masters student.

    But the difference between you and I is am mature enough to admit that I Don't know everything. Whereas, you still have that little girl mindset of "I know everything".

    And again, all that posts proves is that you are extremely immature and avoid pointed coments that prove you are wrong. And that your idea of debating is calling names and demeaning those that challenge your way of thinking. I have a 2 year old that acts more mature than you do. He says please and thank you. And my seven year old has better grammar skills than you do. And yet you want to call me ignorant. HA!

    I pity your professor and you.
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    sassyT Posts: 184, Reputation: 7
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    #46

    Jun 12, 2008, 12:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by achampio21
    I obviously know more about grammar and spelling than little miss science masters student.

    But the difference between you and I is am mature enough to admit that I DONT know everything. Whereas, you still have that little girl mindset of "I know everything".

    And again, all that posts proves is that you are extremely immature and avoid pointed coments that prove you are wrong. And that your idea of debating is calling names and demeaning those that challenge your way of thinking. I have a 2 year old that acts more mature than you do. He says please and thank you. And my seven year old has better grammar skills than you do. And yet you want to call me ignorant. HA!

    I pity your professor and you.
    I didn't call you ignorant you said yourself. :rolleyes:
    achampio21's Avatar
    achampio21 Posts: 220, Reputation: 15
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    #47

    Jun 12, 2008, 12:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    "I don't know it all. I barely know a little. But if that little helps someone, then I guess I learned even more!! "

    As you have admitted your ignorance in your signature, you really barely know much.

    Need I say more.
    sassyT's Avatar
    sassyT Posts: 184, Reputation: 7
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    #48

    Jun 12, 2008, 12:55 PM
    [QUOTE=achampio21]
    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    I am a science masters student so i know what a theory is. Scientific theories may be made of SOME facts but it does not mean the theory itself is a fact.
    A thoery is based on observation, limited knowlege, hypthesis, An assumption based on limited information or [U]knowledge[/U]; a conjecture
    QUOTE]

    So we have established that you are still just a student.

    And by the way I am going to make this last statement and quit for the day because I am getting to emotionally involved in this discussion and I don't normally do that. :mad:

    What you arguing is the same as someone saying that the crayon they are using to color cookie monster is black. And you would come back with "you are so ignorant, that crayon is NOT black it is all different colors combined to make one color so therefore it is not black it is.... blah blah blah." BUT WHAT DOES THE CRAYOLA BOX SAY IT IS..... FREAKIN BLACK!!!!!!:mad: :mad:

    So yeah in a souped up way you are right black is a combination of .......(insert all scientific data here) but the simple way to explain it is well it's black and if I want to call it dark gray, I can. You know why... because I CAN.

    Credendovidis has his own way of thinking. And as I have already PROVEN, he accepts others views too. But that doesn't mean he has to think or believe the same as them.

    You on the other hand seem to have this thing about arguing with people that don't see things the exact same way you do. And as I have PROVEN you are very offensive and demeaning when someone challenges your views.

    I don't believe the same way Crededonvidis does. I believe there is a God and that He created life. And Credo and I have already discussed this. And you know what I am on this post because i felt compelled to stand up for him because he respected my views and gave me his opinions and views in a very positive and sometimes funny manner. You on the other hand are not postive or funny in your statements. You actually attack those that don't think like you or challenge your ideas.

    So think on this dear sassyT, do you think that accepting that not everyone views the world as you do is possible? And by accepting I mean being okay with it, not just admitting that others don't think like you. And also by accepting I mean not feeling like or claiming that everyone that doesn't think like you is wrong or ignorant or stupid or all the other things you like to say to people that don't think like you. Because it's not very nice and not very becoming. And you can't think that someone will value your opinion later on when every other time you give your opinion it's rude and demeaning to others. You even made it a point to IM Credo to be rude. I mean come on. :mad: GET OVER IT!! HE DOESN"T THINK LIKE YOU AND DOESN"T BELIEVE IN A DEITY!!!! it's really okay. REALLY.:mad:
    You really amaze me.. lol you are just in your own world aren't you?

    Credo has his OWN BELIEFS and I have mine and I am perfectly fine with that. SO I don't know what you are RANTING and rRAVING about..? :confused: lol seriously lighten up. We are trying to have a debate here.
    What I am not fine with is Credo acting like his beliefs are somehow factual when they are not. So that is all I want credo to admit. That his beliefs are just that, BELIEFS. End of story. So please don't waste your energy getting mad and taking things personaly. This is just a site where people come and express their beliefs and ideas so don't take offense to what people on this site have to say. I don't.
    WVHiflyer's Avatar
    WVHiflyer Posts: 384, Reputation: 34
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    #49

    Jun 12, 2008, 01:03 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    I am a science masters student so i know what a theory is. Scientific theories may be made of SOME facts but it does not mean the theory itself is a fact.
    A thoery is based on observation, limited knowlege, hypthesis, An assumption based on limited information or [U]knowledge[/U]; a conjecture

    For a science masters student, you apparently have a poor understanding of "theory" as it is used in scientific fields.

    THEORY: 1. a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>

    2. a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b: an unproved assumption

    Def #1 is scientific; def #2 (your apparent def) is general.

    Hypotheses lead to theories - but only after much investigation is done on conjectures.
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    sassyT Posts: 184, Reputation: 7
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    #50

    Jun 12, 2008, 01:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    For a science masters student, you apparently have a poor understanding of "theory" as it is used in scientific fields.

    THEORY: 1. a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>

    2. a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b: an unproved assumption

    Def #1 is scientific; def #2 (your apparent def) is general.

    Hypotheses lead to theories - but only after much investigation is done on conjectures.
    Definition of Conjecture

    con·jec·ture (kən-jĕk'chər)
    n.
    Inference or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.
    A statement, opinion, or conclusion based on guesswork: The commentators made various conjectures about the outcome of the next election


    So how does a theory become a fact when its based on guesswork?
    WVHiflyer's Avatar
    WVHiflyer Posts: 384, Reputation: 34
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    #51

    Jun 12, 2008, 01:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    So how does a theory become a fact when its based on guesswork?
    Apparently you neglected the rest of the post. There are no proven facts until there is first conjecture. Then one investigates - observes, studies, does tests, comparisons, then forms a hypothesis. Then one investigates - observes, studies, does tests, comparisons... and based on all that work, one comes up with a scientific theory. There are very few actual scientific "facts." There are, however, a multitude of scientific theories with a body of evidence great enough to consider them essentially settled. Of course, there will always be competing theories (both in lay and scientific connotation), but it takes an extraordinary amount of evidence to turn over an accepted scientific theory. EVOLUTION IS ONE OF THESE ACCEPTED THEORIES. Modern medicine is based on it. The only disagreement among scientists re evo, are the mechanisms by which it occurs.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #52

    Jun 12, 2008, 02:19 PM
    I am sorry? Moderan medicine based on a unproved theory? Are you sure moderan medicine is not based on product testing, lab experiments and a lot of research??
    WVHiflyer's Avatar
    WVHiflyer Posts: 384, Reputation: 34
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    #53

    Jun 12, 2008, 02:30 PM
    Ignoring the "unproven" part for the moment (see other posts) but, YES! Modern med, is based on evolutionary theory: Vaccines, the genetic search for the causes of disease and conditions...
    sassyT's Avatar
    sassyT Posts: 184, Reputation: 7
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    #54

    Jun 12, 2008, 02:41 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    Apparently you neglected the rest of the post. There are no proven facts until there is first conjecture. Then one investigates - observes, studies, does tests, comparisons, then forms a hypothesis. Then one investigates - observes, studies, does tests, comparisons.... and based on all that work, one comes up with a scientific theory. There are very few actual scientific "facts." There are, however, a multitude of scientific theories with a body of evidence great enough to consider them essentially settled. Of course, there will always be competing theories (both in lay and scientific connotation), but it takes an extraordinary amount of evidence to turn over an accepted scientific theory. EVOLUTION IS ONE OF THESE ACCEPTED THEORIES. Modern medicine is based on it. The only disagreement among scientists re evo, are the mechanisms by which it occurs.
    Development of a Simple Theory by the Scientific Method:

    Observation: Every swan I've ever seen is white.
    Hypothesis: All swans must be white.
    Test: A random sampling of swans from each continent where swans are indigenous produces only white swans.
    Publication: "My global research has indicated that swans are always white"
    Verification: Every swan any other scientist has ever observed in any country has always been white.
    Theory: All swans are white. (NOT TRUE)
    Prediction: The next swan I see will be white.

    Not that although the prediction is useful, the theory does not absolutely prove that the next swan I see will be white, nor does it prove that all swans are white. Thus it is said to be falsifiable. If anyone ever saw a black swan, the theory would have to be tweaked or thrown out. So a theory is not a fact it is nothing more than an educated guess based upon observation and limited knowledge.

    evolution follows the same premise so it could very well be completely faulse but since you believe it is a fact, you have FAITH in it.
    sassyT's Avatar
    sassyT Posts: 184, Reputation: 7
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    #55

    Jun 12, 2008, 02:44 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    Ignoring the "unproven" part for the moment (see other posts) but, YES! Modern med, is based on evolutionary theory: Vaccines, the genetic search for the causes of disease and conditions....
    Modern med may be based on Micro evolution which as an observable scientific fact. But it is NOT based on the hoax "Macro evolution" which claims humans and fruit flies share a common ancestor.
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    Credendovidis Posts: 1,593, Reputation: 66
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    #56

    Jun 12, 2008, 04:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    Credo has his OWN BELIEFS and i have mine and i am perfectly fine with that.
    I do NOT have religious beliefs. I am fine with your religious belief, and the many unsupported claims you make based on that belief. But the point is that how ever strong you believe these claims are true, that doe not make them true !

    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    We are trying to have a debate here.
    Not true. I posted a question and started a debate with that. All you do is being rude and attack other peoples views that are opposing your views in long drawn-out posts with near-meaningless argumentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    What i am not fine with is Credo acting like his beliefs are somehow factual when they are no
    First of all I try NOT to make any claims, and if I do I certainly do not call them factual.
    Secondly : when I post a thesis I always mention that, while you react on that as a bull on a red flag, claiming that I post beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    So that is all i want credo to admit.
    I note that so far you have never even admitted that all your religious based claims carry at best only subjective support based on your religious instruction book. Instead of on reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    This is just a site where people come and express their beliefs and ideas so dont take offense to what people on this site have to say. I don't.
    People do not take offense of your views. They take offense against your frequent rudeness, your sidestepping of issues, your twisting of words, and your unsupported allegations and attacks. As an example for the value of Christianity you must be the worst possible reference...

    :rolleyes:
    Nestorian's Avatar
    Nestorian Posts: 978, Reputation: 152
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    #57

    Jun 12, 2008, 05:37 PM
    Faith, belief, existence, yes, no, good, bad, God, Science... The list never ends. This is what is. We can act, and react, change and not change, but is there any real differnece? Is it no all the same in the end? The gears are turrning, and it seems that we are trying to figure out why, or simply say some higher power is in charge. I know what does all this mean, what am I talking about? Perhaps I'm just some poor unfortunate lost soul in need of guidance, or maybe I'm a great and powerful being trying to show you something that you know to be true but are too afraid to acknowlege, or maybe I'm just a reguar person just as curious as you are about everything, or maybe I'm all of those things?? Who really knows... I know I don't.
    So why listen to a word I've said? Why not? DO not the pros and cons out weigh one another? Does it really matter? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not? So why??

    Simply because we are, and can? Or because we are all one of the same, working together to understand better our self?? Scarry thoughts, eh? To think that the very person you are dissagreeing with is no "better", "worse", "Write", "Wrong" than you are? Now if I too could practice what I speak I'd be well... I'd simply be...
    I'm not saying don't be who you are because it's futile, or means nothing, (remember I don't know.) but rather feel free to open yourself to life, and take the ride as it is. Yes it may hurt, may be soothing, pleasing, enjoyable, terrifying, sad, lonely, and many other things. The choice is always ours, and that is something we can take comfort in.

    SO peace and love my friends... Indeed peace and love.
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    Credendovidis Posts: 1,593, Reputation: 66
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    #58

    Jun 12, 2008, 06:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestorian
    SO peace and love my friends....
    What is actually the essence of your post ?
    Peace for you too, brother (or sister) !

    ;)
    jillianleab's Avatar
    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #59

    Jun 12, 2008, 07:23 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by sassyT
    I am a science masters student
    You keep saying that... but I've read your posts... I don't believe you.
    jillianleab's Avatar
    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #60

    Jun 12, 2008, 07:32 PM
    Also, please see this link:

    CA612: Evolution requiring faith

    For a simple explanation as to why belief in evolution takes no faith at all.

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