[progunr]

Seriously?

Is it really because Congress is so afraid of the environmental whaco's?

I would like to ask any caring American, who thinks we should be obtaining our own oil, to please visit americansolutions.com/actioncenter and sign the petition that says:

Drill here, drill now, pay less.

This is not a liberal or conservative issue, it is an AMERICAN ISSUE!

Why can't congress see that if we just drill for our own oil, we wouldn't have to be held hostage by the Middle East. We could tell them all to go pound sand, and it wouldn't matter if they destroyed each other, and the oil wells too!

We wouldn't have to continue to fight wars, to try to protect our interests in their oil, at all.

Don't they realize that by buying this oil, we are supporting the very terrorists that we are fighting over there now?

It truly makes me feel ill when I think about it, how can we have allowed ourselves to be in this position, over some little brown spotted field mouse?

More than once, 99% of all species on the earth have been destroyed, only for the earth to be re-populated, with about 13.6 MILLION species currently.

I'm sure that the loss of even 100 species, will not tip the scales to the point of world wide extinction, or cause any real problems for us humans, or the food chain that may start with thAT damn little mouse.

We need to get serious about this oil situation. We have sat by and watched our national security be almost completely dependent now on IF "THEY" WILL SELL US "THEIR" OIL AND HOW MUCH WILL WE HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!

[Fr_Chuck]

Everyone wants us to drill for oil, build new refineries, new atomic plants and more, But the trouble is no one wants one in their back yard. They don't want to hurt their land, or their neighborhood, or lower their property values..

So this is the issue with many, for the others, there are some who just want to destroy America and no better way then to destroy their economny by not allowing growth by using the environment.

[tomder55]

Yes in some cases NIMBY is the issue. But if you asked the Alaskans what they thought about drilling in ANWR they say drill away. Also 50 miles off shore does not affect anyone's sightline.

I have been to the site you mention progunr. Another good site is 'Set America Free'

http://www.setamericafree.org/

This is a group of Americans from all sides of the spectrum who agree that energy independence is a national security imperative .(check out the list of sponsors and contributors on the site http://www.setamericafree.org/who.htm)
I doubt if drilling alone will do the trick ;but certainly it is a short term part of the solution. Even the rumor of us opening our reserve sites for drilling and exploration would have an immediate effect on the speculative comodity markets that oil is dealt in ;even if it would take a decade to go into the market.

[tomder55]

The Gas Prices We Deserve

By George F. Will
Thursday, June 5, 2008; A19



Rising in the Senate on May 13, Chuck Schumer, the New York Democrat, explained: "I rise to discuss rising energy prices." The president was heading to Saudi Arabia to seek an increase in its oil production, and Schumer's gorge was rising.

Saudi Arabia, he said, "holds the key to reducing gasoline prices at home in the short term." Therefore arms sales to that kingdom should be blocked unless it "increases its oil production by one million barrels per day," which would cause the price of gasoline to fall "50 cents a gallon almost immediately."

Can a senator, with so many things on his mind, know so precisely how the price of gasoline would respond to that increase in the oil supply? Schumer does know that if you increase the supply of something, the price of it probably will fall. That is why he and 96 other senators recently voted to increase the supply of oil on the market by stopping the flow of oil into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which protects against major physical interruptions. Seventy-one of the 97 senators who voted to stop filling the reserve also oppose drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

One million barrels is what might today be flowing from ANWR if in 1995 President Bill Clinton had not vetoed legislation to permit drilling there. One million barrels produce 27 million gallons of gasoline and diesel fuel. Seventy-two of today's senators -- including Schumer, of course, and 38 other Democrats, including Barack Obama, and 33 Republicans, including John McCain -- have voted to keep ANWR's estimated 10.4 billion barrels of oil off the market.

So Schumer, according to Schumer, is complicit in taking $10 away from every American who buys 20 gallons of gasoline. "Democracy," said H.L. Mencken, "is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard." The common people of New York want Schumer to be their senator, so they should pipe down about gasoline prices, which are a predictable consequence of their political choice.

Also disqualified from complaining are all voters who sent to Washington senators and representatives who have voted to keep ANWR's oil in the ground and who voted to put 85 percent of America's offshore territory off-limits to drilling. The U.S. Minerals Management Service says that restricted area contains perhaps 86 billion barrels of oil and 420 trillion cubic feet of natural gas -- 10 times as much oil and 20 times as much natural gas as Americans use in a year.

Drilling is underway 60 miles off Florida. The drilling is being done by China, in cooperation with Cuba, which is drilling closer to South Florida than U.S. companies are.

ANWR is larger than the combined areas of five states (Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Delaware), and drilling along its coastal plain would be confined to a space one-sixth the size of Washington's Dulles airport. Offshore? Hurricanes Katrina and Rita destroyed or damaged hundreds of drilling rigs without causing a large spill. There has not been a significant spill from an offshore U.S. well since 1969. Of the more than 7 billion barrels of oil pumped offshore in the past 25 years, 0.001 percent -- that is one-thousandth of 1 percent -- has been spilled. Louisiana has more than 3,200 rigs offshore -- and a thriving commercial fishing industry.

In his book "Gusher of Lies: The Dangerous Delusions of 'Energy Independence,' " Robert Bryce says Brazil's energy success has little to do with its much-discussed ethanol production and much to do with its increased oil production, the vast majority of which comes from off Brazil's shore. Investor's Business Daily reports that Brazil, "which recently made a major oil discovery almost in sight of Rio's beaches," has leased most of the world's deep-sea drilling rigs.

In September 2006, two U.S. companies announced that their Jack No. 2 well, in the Gulf 270 miles southwest of New Orleans, had tapped a field with perhaps 15 billion barrels of oil, which would increase America's proven reserves by 50 percent. Just probing four miles below the Gulf's floor costs $100 million. Congress's response to such expenditures is to propose increasing the oil companies' tax burdens.

America says to foreign producers: We prefer not to pump our oil, so please pump more of yours, thereby lowering its value, for our benefit. Let it not be said that America has no energy policy.

[excon]

Hello prog:

Drilling for oil isn't the answer. It's a short term fix - VERY short term. We need an energy policy. Cause we didn't have one, Detroit set it's own. They built gas guzzlers and we bought 'em.

We need an overall comprehensive policy. We're not even close - not close.

Exxcon

[tomder55]

We need short and long term polices. Yes drilling is short term . We should've started it almost 3 decades ago but we did not. Increasing the oil supply, building and using nuclear power will effectively bridge the gap between now and when all those "green " alternatives come on line.

[progunr]

Moining' excon,

How is using our oil, rather than giving our money to the middle east for theirs, considered a "VERY" short term fix?

I don't see it that way, we have more oil available, than they do, so if we just used our own, I say that is a long term fix, no? If we never had to buy the oil from the terrorist nations again, that would be a long term, wouldn't it?

I know it is not the ONLY fix, but stopping the flow of our dollars, into the hands of these rogue nations, using our own oil, just makes damn good sense to me.

[excon]

How is using our oil, rather than giving our money to the middle east for theirs, considered a "VERY" short term fix?...makes damn good sense to me.

Morn'n Prog:

Because in the long term, we're going to run out ---- and/or it's going to become sooo expensive that nobody can afford it.

I don't disagree with you about drilling for what we've got. I don't know if we have or don't have more oil than the Arabs, but theirs is running out too. So, I don't think that those numbers really matter in the long run.

When I speak of a comprehensive plan, it's a plan that's going to piss everybody off. That's how I know it's a GOOD plan. However, it's only MY plan.

The right will be pleased to know that I believe we need to exploit ALL our energy reserves. When I say ALL, I mean all. Certainly, nuclear energy, oil shale and high sulfur coal falls within all. The left will be pleased to know that I believe we need get green. That means conservation, subsidising green industry and taxing the others. NOBODY will be pleased to know (present company excepted) that I believe we need to legalize hemp, which is the best plant to use to make ethanol - much better than corn. Corn is food and feed. Have you ever heard of the people who ate their seed grain? We need to do it all, and we need to do it now.

What frightens me, is that we were here in 1973. The same things were said. The same crisis was ignored. I'm afraid we'll ignore it again, until we crash and burn... I hope not, but I'm not encouraged.

Buy gold.

excon

[WVHiflyer]

The right will be pleased to know that I believe we need to exploit ALL our energy reserves. When I say ALL, I mean all. Certainly, nuclear energy, oil shale and high sulfur coal falls within all. The left will be pleased to know that I believe we need get green. That means conservation, subsidising green industry and taxing the others. NOBODY will be pleased to know (present company excepted) that I believe we need to legalize hemp, which is the best plant to use to make ethanol - much better than corn. Corn is food and feed. Have you ever heard of the people who ate their seed grain? We need to do it all, and we need to do it now.

What frightens me, is that we were here in 1973. The same things were said. The same crisis was ignored. I'm afraid we'll ignore it again, until we crash and burn... I hope not, but I'm not encouraged.
excon

How true... but (always a 'but' in fuel discussions... ) those that ignore the destruction of the environment so we can have our energy now are denying the wonders of the world to later generations. I can hear the moans now about those damn environmentalists... but it is the epitome of selfishness to take all now and let our grandkids deal with the aftermath. WV coal has been a boon to energy needs, and a boon to WV economy. But the slicing up of my hills and dumping them in the valleys and streams is just plain wrong. Besides the loss of streams and contamination of groundwater, there's an actual safety factor involved - the last tornado in WV was around 1948-50. It hit Shinnston (north central WV). Those mountains they're topping off protect the state from such things. Each bit of the environment we change for our own comfort has ramifications and some of those are going to come back and bite us - hard.

[progunr]

I had to post this one, just for the fun of it.

YouTube - Chuck Norris Drills Congress

[tomder55]

I'll post this flashback from May of 2001

Bush, Pushing Energy Plan, Offers Scores of Proposals to Find New Power Sources

[Trandy]

I don't know how accurate I am about the rest of the world, but I live in the panhandle of Texas, and all around me, I see oil pumps. Three out of five of them are sitting still. I sit here and read all of this about drill! Drill! Drill! and I can't sit still.

Am I the only one that has noticed the fact that we are still not pumping to full capacity!
Drill Drill Drill... We (our gov.) are as guilty as the Arabs. They pay these oil rich pompasses not to pump! George W. and his family are some of the richest Texans living off this particular government... uhm... oversight! YEAH RIGHT they know exactly what they are doing.

Don't take me wrong, I agree with all posters in this thread, and am noy here to make argument, but how ignorant are we? Do we actually think that our suited and tied big whigs are going to do something to better life for anyone besides themselves? Why? Because they had the money it took to get elected? One big difference that I see in today's problems and the problems of the seventies, is that WE Americans are sitting on our honches, and waiting for them to do something, and back
Then, we stood up, walked our little hineys out into the streets and SHOUTED!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!

[tomder55]

You make an important point (except for the conspiracy thinking behind the point) drilling and pumping are part of the solution. But would it make sense to pump at a greater capacity than your refineries can convert it to gasoline ? The fact is that American refineries are maxed out. Why pump oil here, send it to Mexico , and have it shipped back when you can buy their refined product without the extra shipping fee? Wehave not built a new refinery since the 1970s ;primarily for NIMBY and silly environmental concerns.

Another factor is the price .The truth is that no one runs a business to lose money. When the price on the market is less than the cost to drill and pump it ;there is zero incentive to operate the pumps.

Those wells that you are seeing also may be exhausted already. I've heard of new discoveries off the coast ,in Alaska ,and a more than an abundant supply of oil shale and sands. I have not heard of too many new discoveries in the Texas pan handle .As I recall from my history reading ;they were very busy in the 1930s . Then again ;at these prices perhaps if the wells were dug a little deeper they again could yield black gold . I know wildcatters are beginning to explore areas of Nebraska and Oklahoma. Farmers seem more than willing to lease their lands when the price is right.

[Trandy]

That makes a lot more sense than a mass conspiracy. Thank you for clearing that up for me. I guess we as americans have sat on our rumps so long, that even if we decided to get up and say... build some refineries so that we can make our own refined fuel, it'd be years before we actually felt the results. I guess we started screwing up in the eighties, and it is now time to suffer the consequences.

[progunr]

Actually Trandy, we started screwing up in the 70's, we knew then that this day was coming, but with the impact of the environmentalists, and the left jumping on that bandwagon, every attempt to do anything was met with resistance and blocking.

While the big time benefits would take a few years, if we don't start now, those few years will end up being 30 or 40 as we sit right now.

I still say, if we announced that we were going to start, right now, getting every drop of our own oil we can find, you would see the prices start dropping immediately. While it may not be a huge drop, the thought that we could eventually tell the middle east that we no longer need ANY of their oil is enough to scare the heck out of them.

The knee jerk reaction would be to lower the price, in hopes that it would calm the protests of the American public, and at least slow us down, so they could continue to sell us what they know we need, and won't get our own, for a little while longer.

Drill now, Drill here, Pay Less!

[westnlas]

If there were more oil wells drilled, the pumping would need to be stopped at some already producing fields in order to maintain the price. Remember, when demand for oil goes down, production is ALWAYS reduced. Availability is not the issue. Price manipulation is.

For a real shock, Google "EESU" and see what has just been patented for storage of electricity. Next, Google "Lockheed" and see who is buying the patents so the technology will not be used for other than military applications.

Big Oil owns the Western World and is the food supply for the Eastern one. It isn't about oil, it's about control of energy.

As another note. My mom's wells in Oklahoma are artesian. Since they are part of the Oil reserve and under the oil conservation act, the pumps are opened only enough to draw off the pressure. Her royalty checks haven't changed significantly in the last 30 years no matter what the price of crude was. Her field hasn't pumped out and my cousin worked capping wells on reserve fields for more than a decade. Of course, when cottage industry loosens the strangle hold the energy companies have on us, this will change very rapidly. Gas prices would fall dramatically if we started buying electric cars and wind turbines.

[Trandy]

Back to conspiracy theories?
That is what I have heard is the deal with our oilfields in upper Texas.
They pay them royalties, not to pump their oil. It is all a part of the "strategic reserve"
What is the strategy involved here, progunr??
Conspirators lining pockets?? I don't seem to be alone in my prior ignorance.
If it is anything else, what exactly are the strategic reserves for? I was under the impression it was for times such as today.
I am only questioning these things out of curiosity... I figure you could probably explain it.
Reading it, I kind of sound sarcastid... this is not the intent!

[tomder55]

The strategic reserves ? Nothing conspiratorial about them . As of June 11, 2008, the current inventory was 704.9 million barrels (112,070,000 m³). At current market prices ($138 a barrel) the SPR holds over $97 billion worth of petroleum. About a 58 day supply at our current usage.

We started them after the 1st oil embargo by OPEC .Their intent is and was to mitigate a supply disruption ;not to manipulate the price.

The reserves are stored at 4 sites near the Gulf of Mexic and close to where our refineries are ;they are not sitting in tapped wells.

There are only a few reasons that wells are capped and they have everything to do with the market forces I identified . It is a joke to claim that Big oil is the problem here . Our free market oil companies as big as they are ,are small compared to the nationalized competition in the Persian Gulf ,Russia etc. Our oil companies buy the cheapest oil they can find ;no matter where it is located .They don't set the price they purchase it at .It is set by a world commodity market.

Speculators have driven up the price for a variety of reasons. The fact is ;no matter how you slice and dice the numbers ,oil companies make less than 10 cents per dollar at the pump.

[tomder55]

EESU is promising technology for applications in electric cars. The first application under a technology agreement will be with Zenn motors company.

Green Car Congress: Feel Good Cars Tuning Up for Production; EEStor ESU on Track

ZENN made a shewd investment . When Lockheed and EEStor announced their partnership ZENN stock went up 28%

If you are confident of it's future I suggest looking into investing in the barium titanate futures market or getting stock in Lockheed or EEStor . That is how innovation moves forward in this country . Now had the government mandated it... it would be a disaster. Just look at the ethanol fiasco as a comparison.

BTW .Those evil oil companies... who owns them ? State and Private Pension funds ;401Ks individual investors that's who.

One more thing... The EESU is not the only new innovation in electric storage for electric cars either . Nanowire technology is being developed in Stanford University and at Altair Nanotechnologies . Maxwell Technologies is also in the electric storage industry . Do you think Lockheed will monopolize all the innovation exclusively for military purposes ?

Windmills offers an interesting contradiction that the environmentalist need to resolve. Everyone wants them but no one wants to see them or live by them .Have you ever heard the noise they make ? Word is that it can be maddening . The best case of the NIMBY attitude by libs would be the Kennedy's working against those who would put them off the coast of Cape Cod .

Either way I don't expect them to replace more than about 5 % of our energy needs. But they should be in the mix. Put all options on the table and let the market decide. I am in favor of using the French model of breeder reactors to supply the bulk of our energy needs.

[excon]

Speculators have driven up the price for a variety of reasons.

Hello tom:

Here's how it goes. Monetary inflation is followed by price inflation. Then government blames speculators for its own deeds.

I don't know if I should be surprised that you're still carrying the dufus's water.

Buy gold.

excon