[Kati-Katt]

De Maria this is not an argument page please stop.

[Mr_am]

There is no correlation between your fear and whether to go to church.. (I am not a church fan though)... It is up to you to know what is best for you. Concerning what happens... I agree with some answers saying.. you may not expect to have all your wishes (prayers) come true...
What happens has to do with destiny.. i.e God's will may not necessarily be exactly as you like !

[tawnynkids]

Just because I feel it is important for people to know:
Acts 9 Saul - unsaved- persecuted followers of Christ - persecuted Christ
11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name." 15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

Yes, there are also examples of when God has chosen not to listen. God makes up His own mind about whose prayers He will answer.

[De Maria]

Just because I feel it is important for people to know:
Acts 9 Saul - unsaved- persecuted followers of Christ - persecuted Christ
11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name." 15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

Yes, there are also examples of when God has chosen not to listen. God makes up His own mind about whose prayers He will answer.

I don't see the connection. I asked you to provide examples of God listening to unbelievers and unfaithful.

In this case, Saul, although you classify him as unsaved, but he can hardly be considered an unbeliever or unfaithful. By his own admission, he is a Pharisee born of Pharisees,

Acts Of Apostles 23 6 And Paul knowing that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, cried out in the council: Men, brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of Pharisees: concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

And he studied under the great Gamaliel.

Acts Of Apostles 22

3 And he saith: I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the truth of the law of the fathers, zealous for the law, as also all you are this day:

In other words, he was a faithful Jew.

John 4 22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews.

And Scripture has tons of examples of God answering the prayers of faithful Jews.

But I don't know of any example of God answering the prayers of the unfaithful, Jewish or not. And that is what I'm asking you to provide in order for me to take seriously what you are saying.

I mean, if you are going to say that my statements are unbiblical, shouldn't you provide Biblical support for the argument you are presenting against mine?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

De Maria this is not an argument page please stop.

Jesushelper76 agrees: Exactly.

Me? Argument? You mean, debate?

But I only addressed the OP with my opinion and Tawny disagreed with my opinion. And I have nothing against that. I enjoy debates and discussions of differences especially when I'm learning or teaching about the faith.

So, as far as I can see, Tawny and I are having a polite disagreement. I could see your asking me/us to stop if we were insulting each other, using vulgar language or something, but we aren't.

So what's the problem?

[tawnynkids]

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

A faithful jew does not commit murder.

[De Maria]

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

A faithful jew does not commit murder.

That's true. But the faithful Jews of Jesus' time who were persecuting the Christians did not believe they were committing murder. They believed they were obeying God's injunction against blasphemy and apostasy.

And the Lord Jesus had predicted that would happen:
John 16
2 They will put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you, will think that he doth a service to God.


And Saul, being a faithful Jew, obeyed God's law:
Hebrews 10
28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses:

Acts Of Apostles 7
57 And casting him forth without the city, they stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man, whose name was Saul. 58 And they stoned Stephen, invoking, and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 59 And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying: Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep in the Lord. And Saul was consenting to his death.

Remember, Saul got permission from his superiors in order to pursue Christians wherever he might find them.

Acts 10
1 And Saul, as yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, 2 And asked of him letters to Damascus, to the synagogues: that if he found any men and women of this way, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

So, that isn't exactly what we classify as murder. Its more like a legal execution.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[tawnynkids]

He said it would happen, He did not say it was right.
John 16:1-4

“These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them."

That's right they did believe that, however, that's the problem with that. THEY believed, God did not tell them to do this. They BELIEVED the wrong person.

Yes, He did predict it. And you only gave part of the context. Jesus said they would do this because they did not know the Father nor Him.

Jesus went to Saul and stopped him.
Acts 9:4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

Jesus did not thank him for killing His people, He showed mercy and grace. That is what made Saul's testimony even greater.

[De Maria]

He said it would happen, He did not say it was right.
John 16:1-4

“These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them."

That's right they did believe that, however, that's the problem with that. THEY believed, God did not tell them to do this. They BELIEVED the wrong person.

Yes, He did predict it. And you only gave part of the context. Jesus said they would do this because they did not know the Father nor Him.

Jesus went to Saul and stopped him.
Acts 9:4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

Jesus did not thank him for killing His people, He showed mercy and grace. That is what made Saul's testimony even greater.

But how does any of this relate to a Scripture which says that God listens to unbelievers and unfaithful?

[tawnynkids]

Saul was not a faithful Jew (or otherwise) and God knew what he was doing, came to him and heard him praying.

All evident in Acts 9.
3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
God came to Saul

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
He knew what Saul was doing and questioned him.

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
He had to tell Saul who He was because Saul was so far from God that he did not recognize Him.

11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
God told Ananias that He heard Saul praying.

Saul was not saved at this point. He did not become saved for three days after. Not only was he not saved, he was not faithful at the very least by being a murderer.

Yet, God knew Saul was a murderer, heard that he was praying, answered his prayer, and chose him to spread the message of God to the Gentiles, kings and children of Israel.

This is all after the death and resurrection of Christ. So, to say you "know" the Father could only be after you have accepted salvation at this point in the bible, which Saul had not when God came to him and heard his prayer.

[De Maria]

That's your interpretation of the events. I'll add mine.

Saul was not a faithful Jew (or otherwise)

Saul's faith is never in question. Saul was a Pharisee born of Pharisees and he was taught by Gamaliel. That means that Saul was steeped in Scripture and that he loved the word of God:

Galatians 1 14 And I made progress in the Jews' religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more abundantly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

and God knew what he was doing, came to him and heard him praying.

I would say that God saw his misplaced zeal and decided to use him to spread the faith of Christ.

All evident in Acts 9.

I agree.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
God came to Saul

Correct.

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
He knew what Saul was doing and questioned him.

That is also true. But note that Saul was not persecuting Jesus Christ, but the Church of Jesus Christ. Yet Jesus says, "thou persecutest me". This shows that Jesus Christ so identifies the Church with Himself that He does not distinguish between the two, we are one with Him.

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
He had to tell Saul who He was because Saul was so far from God that he did not recognize Him.

I disagree. Saul was very close to God. That is why God chose him as his instrument with the Gentiles. But God did not want him to preach Judaism, but Christ crucified.

11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
God told Ananias that He heard Saul praying.

Correct. But notice, Scripture has never characterized Saul as unfaithful or unbelieving. That is something which you have read into Scripture but which Scripture does not teach.

And here God says, "for behold, he prayeth." This is not an indicator that Saul has prayed one time or just a little bit. This is an indicator that Saul is steeped in prayer. Probably for the three days that he has traveled to the city.

And that brings us back to my original point. You must be faithful and you must be constant in prayer for God to answer your prayers:

James 5 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Saul was not saved at this point.

Does Scripture say so? Where?

He did not become saved for three days after. Not only was he not saved, he was not faithful at the very least by being a murderer.

Again, you are reading that into Scripture. Saul definitely was faithful. He was raised in the Jewish faith and by his own account, he outstripped his comrades in zeal for his faith.

Yet, God knew Saul was a murderer, heard that he was praying, answered his prayer, and chose him to spread the message of God to the Gentiles, kings and children of Israel.

That is all true. But you have put your "spin" on it, so to speak.

I would say, that God knew that Saul had killed some Christian in his misplaced zeal for God, and God knew that Saul was a faithful, prayerful and zealous Jew, therefore he chose him for one of His instrument amongst the Gentiles, kings and children of Israel.

This is all after the death and resurrection of Christ.

Correct.

So, to say you "know" the Father could only be after you have accepted salvation at this point in the bible, which Saul had not when God came to him and heard his prayer.

I don't understand your last sentence.

I said that Scripture shows that God does not answer the prayers of the unfaithful or unbelieving. If you want me to believe that God answers the prayers of the unfaithful or unbelieving, please show me where he does that from Scripture. Saul is not an example of such.

Now, if you are saying Saul was unfaithful and unbelieving, then I simply disagree. I think you've read that into Scripture. Its obvious that Saul was very faithful to God through the Mosaic Covenant but had not heard or believed the message of Jesus Christ.

Saul's faith is not in question. It is his judgement which was wrong.

So, if Saul is the only example of unfaithfulness which you've got from Scripture, that isn't convincing to me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[tawnynkids]

It just occurred to me that you are Catholic. Am I correct? If so, I understand better now.
Correct me if I am wrong but don't Catholics believe baptism is necessary for salvation? In other words that you are not saved until you are baptized?

[De Maria]

It just occurred to me that you are Catholic. Am I correct?

Yes.

If so, I understand better now. Correct me if I am wrong but don't Catholics believe baptism is necessary for salvation?

Yes, Scripture says:

Mark 16

16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

And also:

1 Peter 3

21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In other words that you are not saved until you are baptized?

Close, but not quite.

We believe we are not saved unless we are baptized, but being baptized does not guarantee our salvation:

Philippians 2

12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[JoeCanada76]

There is a big difference between being baptised with water, and being baptised with the spirit.

Jesus died, his spirit is within each of us. We are all baptised within. In the bible most adults got baptised.

It is a ceremony of welcoming in the church and the people within the church. To show the community that we belong to christ.

It is not needed for salvation because we are all born with Gods spirit within us.

(LETS ALL GET BACK TO THE ORIGINAL OP'S QUESTION AND STOP DEBATING)

[adamosity]

Start with the nature of God. The scriptures clearly tell he that he is love, Spirit, life and even truth itself, and that we are his children, as we read in I John 3: "Beloved, now are we the sons (and daughters, I dare add) of God...") When a son asks for bread, a father does not give him a stone! God bestows all good and is of purer eyes that even to behold evil, much less send it as an answer to fervent prayer, yours or others. Fr_Chuck had the straight of it as I see it: Count your blessings, give thanks for the good received no matter how trivial. Then search for a church with the ideal of God that you hold close to your heart and understanding. Turn to the Bible, that's what it's there for. Quiet listening and prayer will help with that search as the right path will unfold - with blessings, not a curse!
God bless!

[De Maria]

There is a big difference between being baptised with water, and being baptised with the spirit.

Jesus died, his spirit is within each of us. We are all baptised within. In the bible most adults got baptised.

It is a ceremony of welcoming in the church and the people within the church. To show the community that we belong to christ.

It is not needed for salvation because we are all born with Gods spirit within us.

(LETS ALL GET BACK TO THE ORIGINAL OP'S QUESTION AND STOP DEBATING)

I'm not objecting, just asking. Are we going in a new direction?

When I first started posting on this site, I assumed it was strictly question and answer. My intent was to answer religious questions about Christianity and Catholicism. Then I answered a question and I was besieged by debaters, mostly atheists, from all sides. Thank God that I'm very well suited to debate and argument, because no moderators intervened.

Anyway, I've recently been asked to stop debating, twice. Once in what I consider a polite discussion on this thread and again in a good discussion gone bad on another thread.

So, I have to ask, is this a new rule put in place? Or is an old rule now being enforced?

For further clarification, does this mean that we must now only address the OP and no one else?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[JoeCanada76]

At an early age my parents always told us to go to church, when I moved out of my house at 18 things changed. It's not that I didn't believe in God I just stopped going to church when I entered University. When Sunday rolled around I made up some sort of excuse not to go, but now I have no excuse and I feel that I need to go. The only problem is for the last 2 years any time I ever prayed or thought of god something would go wrong in my personal life. Let me explain I have prayed about things and then they have gone completely the other way, I am just scared that if I pray today about something it all go wrong. I need some prayers answered or some sort of support about a personal issue but I am just to scared to pray about it or to go to church. Please someone help.

Hello davejag,

I hope that your doing well. I hope that everything is fine with you. Have you started searching out churches in your local area? Never hurt to check a few out. Are you getting any kind of support about a personal issue yet? Sometimes it takes seeking it out from many different sources. Take care,

[tawnynkids]

Since Saul was not baptized until Acts 9:18 which is clearly after Jesus came to him, he prayed, Jesus heard him and Jesus healed him, I believe that is how you know Saul was not saved when those things occurred.

If what De Maria says is believed by the OP and she accepts God does not listen to her prayers because she is unfaithful then I offer the following to her: if Saul was faithful by obeying God law's given to the Jews then he would not have gone against God and listened to the Pharisees and broke the first commandment given to the Jews and committed murder. The Pharisees "thought" they were doing a service to God so De Maria says he "would say that God saw his misplaced zeal"... Hitler felt killing Jews was right. He was wrong. The Bible says that the heart is deceitful and untrustworthy (Jer. 17:9). If you could come to know truth by what you felt, then the Bible, which is the revelation of God, didn't need to be written. But it has been written, and it has revealed that only God is the Source of truth, not your feelings. So, my stance is not that God listened to Saul because he was faithful but rather it is evident in the scripture that he was not faithful and God listened to him and answered him anyway. God saw a usable heart in Saul and showed him great mercy and grace knowing that He could use Saul to do great things for God.

JesusHelper, I sincerely appreciate your objection to our debate with the belief that it is not directly helping the OP. I hope maybe the following will allow you to see my reason for continuing the debate in an effort to help the OP.

It has been said “So, don't expect your prayers answered until you go to Church, ask forgiveness, turn your life around and begin doing the will of God”

I have said “You don't have to prove yourself for God to answer prayers. God answers the prayers even of those who have not accepted Him. When the alcoholic has hit the bottom of the bottle and cries up "Ok God if you are really up there, save me!" God does!”

The OP stated, “It's not that I didn't believe in God I just stopped going to church when I entered University.”

Giving the OP the benefit of the doubt when she said she believed, for the purpose of answering her, I took the stance that she has accepted Christ and salvation. So, I addressed her as a saved person when I gave my opinion. My point in saying that God hears even an unsaved person was to show that He would certainly hear her, being righteous through Christ. That her salvation is not conditional upon works, therefore God listening to her would also not be conditional upon her works.

My belief, unlike De Maria's, is that once we accept Christ we are covered by His blood and thereby already forgiven for all the sins we have committed and the sins we will commit, unconditionally. Therefore, her not going to church would not cause God to stop listening to her. De Maria's difference of belief seems to be in that he believes that you must prove your faith by your works and my belief is that through your faith your works will automatically be evident in your life because Christ resides in you. I believe that if Christ lives in you your life can not remain unchanged. So you will “have done works” pleasing to God. But there are areas in all of us that will continually need improvement to become more Christlike. And my point was maybe going to church was one of those areas for Davejag, that maybe God has been working on other areas of her life and now He was tugging on her heart and letting her know He wants her to work on that issue. I believe God moves us into compliance with His laws by convicting us to obey a little more all the time. Therefore, not ignoring her prayers for “her rebellion of not going to church” but rather that 2 possible things are happening. Satan was doing what he does best and sending his kingdom of minion to attack her. And, God was answering her but because God gives three answers to prayer, yes, no and wait, that since things seem to get worse for her the answer was not yes right now, that the only answers left would be no or not yet. I don't presume to know which one of those God was telling her. Davejag- It is possible that God, knowing your heart and that you have faith, is just pulling you in line with His will for your life by wanting you to re associate with other believers by going to church and may find through that, help with your personal issues. But my point was that God does hear her and answer her. I was allowing our debate to show the reasons of both sides between my beliefs and De Maria's to give the OP as much information as necessary to decide what she believes. De Maria was saying that the OP is unfaithful therefore being unheard by God, it is his opinion “that Scripture shows that God does not answer the prayers of the unfaithful or unbelieving” and he has stated why he believes that. I don't believe that she is unfaithful and wanted to show her the reasons I believe the way I do. So, if she believes what De Maria says and that God has not been listening to her because she is unfaithful she has his supporting reasons for that. And if she chooses to believe that she is not unfaithful then she has the reasons to believe that and possible explanations for what is happening with her. What she decides to believe will be between her and God.

I am truly not trying to convince De Maria of my beliefs through this debate. I believe it is quite clear De Maria is convinced what he believes is true. I respect that. Only God can make Him see different. (I have learned a bit more about Catholicism through De Maria, and I thank you for that.) But through this debate the OP can possibly better see the reasons, evidence to believe something said here if she chooses to believe any of it.

I hope I have explained why I feel this debate, although lengthy and seemingly off track, does in fact apply to the OP's question and situation. And is important to the subject at hand for anyone reading who may be in the same position as the OP. At least in my opinion. I believe I have said all that needs to be said though, so, I respectfully end my participation in the "debate" and offer only one more thing to the OP...

My advice is not to be hindered by condemnation and fear from satan but obey God and move closer to Him and seek out a good church and to not be afraid to pray, God is listening to you. Have faith that God's will is best for you even if it seems to be getting worse, He has a great plan and knows what is best for you. Our salvation is evident to God through our Hearts, our salvation is evident to others through our "works". Our salvation is a free gift from God and will be evident by our works it we truly have accepted His gift.

Ephesians 2:4-10
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9not by works, so that no one can boast.
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[De Maria]

Since Saul was not baptized until Acts 9:18 which is clearly after Jesus came to him, he prayed, Jesus heard him and Jesus healed him, I believe that is how you know Saul was not saved when those things occurred.

There is another Saul which we can consider which illustrates what I'm talking about:

Now, if you know Scripture, you know that Saul was once faithful and God heard his voice:

1 Kings 10
6 And the spirit of the Lord shall come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be changed into another man. 7 When therefore these signs shall happen to thee, do whatsoever thy hand shall find, for the Lord is with thee.

But power went to Saul's head and he became unfaithful to the point that God departed from him and would no longer answer his prayers. And Saul had to resort to sorcery:

1 Kings 28
15 And Samuel said to Saul: Why hast thou disturbed my rest, that I should be brought up? And Saul said, I am in great distress: for the Philistines fight against me, and God is departed from me, and would not hear me, neither by the hand of prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest show me what I shall do.

Note that even though Saul believes in God, he is not being faithful to God and God has departed from him.

If what De Maria says is believed by the OP and she accepts God does not listen to her prayers because she is unfaithful then I offer the following to her: if Saul was faithful by obeying God law’s given to the Jews then he would not have gone against God and listened to the Pharisees and broke the first commandment given to the Jews and committed murder. The Pharisees "thought" they were doing a service to God so De Maria says he "would say that God saw his misplaced zeal"... Hitler felt killing Jews was right.

Huh? Where did that come from?

That comparison is completely invalid and I beieve, unfair. Hitler did not believe in God. If you have studied his entire story you will find that Hitler pretended faith in God in order to lull believers into a state of confidence which would make them easier to dispose of.

To compare the devout and overzealous Jews of Jesus' time to Hiter is completely off base. I know you have bowed out of this debate, and I respect you for that, but you might want to qualify that statement.

He was wrong. The Bible says that the heart is deceitful and untrustworthy (Jer. 17:9). If you could come to know truth by what you felt, then the Bible, which is the revelation of God, didn't need to be written. But it has been written, and it has revealed that only God is the Source of truth, not your feelings. So, my stance is not that God listened to Saul because he was faithful but rather it is evident in the scripture that he was not faithful and God listened to him and answered him anyway. God saw a usable heart in Saul and showed him great mercy and grace knowing that He could use Saul to do great things for God.

Actually, the Bible kind of tells you whom you should turn tu:

1 Timothy 3 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

That is why separating yourself from the Church is the same as separating yourself from Christ.

Ephesians 5 23 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body.

JesusHelper, I sincerely appreciate your objection to our debate with the belief that it is not directly helping the OP. I hope maybe the following will allow you to see my reason for continuing the debate in an effort to help the OP.

I feel the same for the opposite reason of course.

It has been said “So, don't expect your prayers answered until you go to Church, ask forgiveness, turn your life around and begin doing the will of God”

Correct.

I have said “You don't have to prove yourself for God to answer prayers. God answers the prayers even of those who have not accepted Him. When the alcoholic has hit the bottom of the bottle and cries up "Ok God if you are really up there, save me!" God does!”

The OP stated, “It's not that I didn't believe in God I just stopped going to church when I entered University.”

Giving the OP the benefit of the doubt when she said she believed, for the purpose of answering her, I took the stance that she has accepted Christ and salvation. So, I addressed her as a saved person when I gave my opinion. My point in saying that God hears even an unsaved person was to show that He would certainly hear her, being righteous through Christ. That her salvation is not conditional upon works, therefore God listening to her would also not be conditional upon her works.

However, this is an unscriptural stance, Scripture is clear that faith is expressed in works and without works of faith we are not justified:

James 2 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

My belief, unlike De Maria’s, is that once we accept Christ we are covered by His blood and thereby already forgiven for all the sins we have committed and the sins we will commit, unconditionally.

That remains an unscriptural stance. Yes we are cleansed by the blood of Christ, but we must persevere to the end. We don't just say, I believe and get into heaven no matter what we do thereafter. Scripture is clear:

Romans 6 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein?

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Therefore, her not going to church would not cause God to stop listening to her.

Not only that but worse.

Hebrews 10 25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed; but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Missing the Mass is a mortal sin. Why? Because if we don't accept the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the Cross, if we don't value His Body and Blood and long to be united to Him at least every seven days, then we have insulted the Spirit of Grace.

De Maria’s difference of belief seems to be in that he believes that you must prove your faith by your works and my belief is that through your faith your works will automatically be evident in your life because Christ resides in you.

Except it doesn't work that way in real life. How many people do we all know who claim to be faithful yet engage in all types of sinful behaviour. And they don't intend to stop.

Works of faith are transformative. The more you do them the more you love God and the more you love God the more you want to please Him by doing His works. That is why works are so imporant. And a person who lets his faith show forth in his works is more trustworthy than one who simply claims to be faithful but produces no fruit:

John 15 2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

I believe that if Christ lives in you your life can not remain unchanged. So you will “have done works” pleasing to God. But there are areas in all of us that will continually need improvement to become more Christlike. And my point was maybe going to church was one of those areas for Davejag, that maybe God has been working on other areas of her life and now He was tugging on her heart and letting her know He wants her to work on that issue. I believe God moves us into compliance with His laws by convicting us to obey a little more all the time.

I agree. But this is not the same as answering prayer.

Therefore, not ignoring her prayers for “her rebellion of not going to church” but rather that 2 possible things are happening. Satan was doing what he does best and sending his kingdom of minion to attack her. And, God was answering her but because God gives three answers to prayer, yes, no and wait, that since things seem to get worse for her the answer was not yes right now, that the only answers left would be no or not yet. I don’t presume to know which one of those God was telling her. Davejag- It is possible that God, knowing your heart and that you have faith, is just pulling you in line with His will for your life by wanting you to re associate with other believers by going to church and may find through that, help with your personal issues. But my point was that God does hear her and answer her. I was allowing our debate to show the reasons of both sides between my beliefs and De Maria’s to give the OP as much information as necessary to decide what she believes. De Maria was saying that the OP is unfaithful therefore being unheard by God, it is his opinion “that Scripture shows that God does not answer the prayers of the unfaithful or unbelieving” and he has stated why he believes that. I don’t believe that she is unfaithful and wanted to show her the reasons I believe the way I do. So, if she believes what De Maria says and that God has not been listening to her because she is unfaithful she has his supporting reasons for that. And if she chooses to believe that she is not unfaithful then she has the reasons to believe that and possible explanations for what is happening with her. What she decides to believe will be between her and God.

I am truly not trying to convince De Maria of my beliefs through this debate. I believe it is quite clear De Maria is convinced what he believes is true. I respect that.

Amen! I feel the same way in regards to you.

Only God can make Him see different. (I have learned a bit more about Catholicism through De Maria, and I thank you for that.) But through this debate the OP can possibly better see the reasons, evidence to believe something said here if she chooses to believe any of it.

Exactly.

I hope I have explained why I feel this debate, although lengthy and seemingly off track, does in fact apply to the OP’s question and situation. And is important to the subject at hand for anyone reading who may be in the same position as the OP. At least in my opinion. I believe I have said all that needs to be said though, so, I respectfully end my participation in the "debate" and offer only one more thing to the OP...

My advice is not to be hindered by condemnation and fear from satan but obey God and move closer to Him and seek out a good church and to not be afraid to pray, God is listening to you. Have faith that God's will is best for you even if it seems to be getting worse, He has a great plan and knows what is best for you. Our salvation is evident to God through our Hearts, our salvation is evident to others through our "works". Our salvation is a free gift from God and will be evident by our works it we truly have accepted His gift.

Ephesians 2:4-10
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9not by works, so that no one can boast.
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I agree with the end of your message. I also bow out at this time.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[savedsinner7]

Thank you for all your answers I have taken ever single answer and have processed it. I know where I stand, I have gotten a little closer to my conclusion that I have known. Some of you have understood my view and concern better then the others, unfortunately some of you missed the point of my concern which is completely understandable. Thank you again for all your help.

God is not the only one listening. Satan also listens and then tries to keep us from believing God will answer.

There is a story in Joshua about how he had prayed and the Angel of the LORD was dispatched, but fought for days before reaching Joshua to help him!

The LORD hears you and is answering you. The devil is trying to destroy your faith.

Our choice is to either believe the promise of God, that He will never leave us or forsake us, or to reject the Word of God and look at our circumstances.

Which is greater? God or circumstances? I choose to believe my God is Greater!