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lbrowne · Feb 21, 2006, 08:41 AM

Looks like I'll be shopping for a new water heater soon. Very soon. My currrent water heater after calling the manufacturer has been installed in my house since 1994 that has a listed life expectantcy of 8-12 years. So I think I'm on borrowed time. It still sends out hot water and sends it out quickly, I guess I'm just nervous?

Seeing that I would rather not have this thing go at a bad time or any time and flood my basement I think I should just replace it. I don't think the basement drain will get rid of the water before the water got underneath the laminate flooring that is in the room surrounding the boiler/furnace room.

I was going to go tankless but for now its conventional. I'll be looking for a natural gas water heater, and one that is preferably 50 gallon.

Price is definitely a factor here, as I can't afford too much. I'll be doing the install myself. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks,

lbrowne

speedball1 · Feb 21, 2006, 10:52 AM

Not so fast Browne, ( are you the one that did "A heckofa job" for Bush in New Orleans?)

"Looks like I'll be shopping for a new water heater soon. Very soon. My currrent water heater after calling the manufacturer has been installed in my house since 1994 that has a listed life expectantcy of 8-12 years. So I think I'm on borrowed time. It still sends out hot water and sends it out quickly, I guess I'm just nervous."

I have the original water heater in my home that was built in 1954 and it's still working fine. I kept it that way by a regular maintenance schedule,(flushing, more about that later). Your line of reasoning works out very well for the manufacture and the stores that sell water heaters but not too well for the home owner.
The only thing that will cause a heater to be replaced is if the welds in the boiler let go, most everything else can be replaced.

Whatever happened to the saying," If it ain't broke don't fix it?"
My advice? Start a maintenance schedule and keep the heater until you can see that it must be replaced. (It's very seldom a weld will open up for more then a small leak.) Let me show you how to keep your heater around for years.
For long life and fewer troubles you should keep your heater clear of mineral build-up by flushing on a regular schedule. Attach a hose to the boiler drain at the bottom of the tank. With the pressure on, open the boiler drain and let it run until the water runs clear. You will see a spurt of red,(rust) followed by white grains,(lime or calcium carbonate). This shouldn't take more then a few minutes. Do this monthly to keep it clear. Good luck, tom

labman · Feb 21, 2006, 11:59 AM

Listen to Tom. I am not near as regular about flushing mine as Tom says. Still, I replaced the 10 year old AO Smith one in my house about 1980 with some cheap off brand, and it is still doing fine.

I studied the tankless a couple of year ago, and finally concluded they are over hyped.

lbrowne · Feb 21, 2006, 07:43 PM

Well, it certainly would be kind to keep this tank as far as my wallett goes. I've flushed this tank a couple of times. I had super low hot water pressure and resolved that. (outlet pipe was almost closed over!) Just crude and buildup and now I have full pressure.

I looked underneath the tank with the side plate off where you light the pilot light and the base inside is a bit rusted where the flames hit it but it doesn't appear anything out of the ordinary. I can ge a picture if you like :) Other than that it doesn't leak, provides hot water quickly. Its just plumbers and a home builder passer-by at home depot recommended I replace the tank at that age. Anyway I'm all eyes and ears for helpful hints. :)

lbrowne · Feb 21, 2006, 09:18 PM

Ok, this is what frustrates me. My drain valve now doesn't close properly as of the weekend. Try as I might the thing is fubared. I can get it closed to the point that there is only a faint trickle coming out, but this should not be like this.

So I buy a replacement valve, it's the crappy plastic type design like the one on my tank. Think I could get it off? Nooooo. I tried to the point that I almost think I'm going to crack the existing valve off - yeah, what fun that would be. Any tips or pointers on getting that sucker off?

PalmMP3 · Feb 22, 2006, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by lbrowne

I can ge a picture if you like :)

Sure, why not? It can't hurt, and besides, you never know - maybe we'll notice something wrong in the picture that you did not notice...

Moishe

PalmMP3 · Feb 22, 2006, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by lbrowne

So I buy a replacement valve, its the crappy plastic type design like the one on my tank.

Let me ask you a stupid question: why the heck did you get the same "crappy plastic type design"? You should be using this as a golden opportunity to get yourself a normal brass boiler drain, not replacing it with the same kind of crap that will probably fail again shortly! In fact, I'd recommend spending an extra dollar or two, and getting the ball-valve style if it's available - it'll make the monthly flush routine a bit easier...

Cheers,
Moishe

lbrowne · Feb 22, 2006, 08:50 AM

Ok that's fine but... how do I get the one in there out? I would have thought I'd have to use the same type of tap.

The rubber bushing inside the current one is messed up, wonder if I could just loosen the handle right off and fix that...

labman · Feb 22, 2006, 09:42 AM

I went through that with mine. I was able to unscrew the plastic valve with a pair of Channellocks. Worst case is to crack it and have to take it out in pieces. Ball valves are much more resist to crud. I am not sure you can buy one with the threads for a hose. You can buy 3/4'' pipe to hose adapter. This will be a little more expensive than a made for the purpose valve, but a quick flick of handle, and the valve is off with no dribbles. There are very few applications where a ball valve wouldn't work better than the conventional gate and globe valves.

lbrowne · Feb 22, 2006, 11:29 AM

I'm just afraid of not being able to get all the pieces out. My boiler is close to the intake for the furnce, this valve is pointing towards the furnace and is close enough that I would have to try and use a mirror to see in there. Bad layout but oh well.

Because if I break it off, and I can't get all the pieces out, I'm fubarred.

PalmMP3 · Feb 22, 2006, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by labman

I am not sure you can buy one with the threads for a hose.

Sure you can. I've seen them in Lowe's. The ones I saw were made by American Valve, and you can see them on American Valve's website. Unfortunately, American Valve's website uses frames, so it's hard to get a direct link to the right page, so here's how you get there: go to http://www.americanvalve.com, click on "Brass and Bronze valves" on the left-hand navigation column, and then click "Quarter Turn & Compact Quarter Turn Hose End Valves" near the bottom of the page.

If you don't want to follow the links, here's a couple of pictures (the one on the left is male-threaded, the one on the right is female-threaded):

Good luck,
Moishe
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lbrowne · Feb 22, 2006, 12:44 PM

The one on the right looks like I could thread that right on the end of my plastic valve and then just close it... any probs with that?

speedball1 · Feb 22, 2006, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by lbrowne

I'm just afraid of not being able to get all the pieces out. My boiler is close to the intake for the furnce, this valve is pointing towards the furnace and is close enough that I would have to try and use a mirror to see in there. Bad layout but oh well.

Because if I break it off, and I can't get all the pieces out, I'm fubarred.

Sure you can! We're not talking metal here. If anything breaks off in the threads just take a knife and dig out the plastic pieces. And whatever you replace the plastic boiler drain with, make it metal and don't forget to tape the threads with Teflon Tape before you install it. Good luck, Tom

PalmMP3 · Feb 22, 2006, 12:58 PM

And make sure you shut off and drain the heater first. Something tells me that 50 gallons of very hot water shooting out onto your hand - and then all over the floor - will not leave you a happy camper. ;)

Good luck,
Moishe

labman · Feb 22, 2006, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by lbrowne

The one on the right looks like I could thread that right on the end of my plastic valve and then just close it....any probs with that?

Most boiler drain cocks, including plastic ones have a male hose thread. That valve will have a 3/4'' pipe thread, and will not fit. As usual, you should do exactly as Tom says.

I hate to even give you this alternative, but if you really want to screw another valve onto the leaky one, what you could do is buy one meant to connect 2 garden hoses. Just screw it on and shut it off.

About time they start making ball valve hose bibs. A quick 1/4 turn to turn on, and when it is off, no water comes out the end or the valve stem.

lbrowne · Feb 22, 2006, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by speedball1

Sure ya can! We're not talking metal here. If anything breaks off in the threads just take a knife and dig out the plastic pieces. And whatever you replace the plastic boiler drain with, make it metal and don't forget to tape the threads with Teflon Tape before you install it. Good luck, Tom

I already have purchased another plastic one. If this screws up down the road, I'll get the better one. I plan on getting on a regular maintenance schedule with this unit :)

PalmMP3 · Feb 23, 2006, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by lbrowne

I already have purchased another plastic one.

Did you buy it at Home Depot? They have a wonderful return policy - up to 90 days, even if it's open, as long as the packaging is more or less intact with the UPC still in one piece.

Even if not, it's worth shelling out an extra $5. Trust me. Think about it: in order to change the valve, you'll have to drain the heater, which means that refilling it will (a) tack another 50 gallons onto your water bill (if you're on city water), and more importantly (b) think of the amount of gas wasted heating it back up once it's refilled. If the new plastic one screws up down the road - which I can almost guarantee it will - not only will you have to pay for the brass valve anyway, but you'll also incur the costs associated with another refill/reheat cycle.

Cheers,
Moishe
Note: if this post was helpful, please rate it by clicking "Comment on this Post" in the upper-right corner of this post. Thank you.

labman · Feb 23, 2006, 05:27 AM

I have to go along with that. Whether you go back with plastic or brass, you still must remove the old one. You are still going to have trouble with the new plastic one getting crud in it and leaking.

Say MP3, aren't you sort of answering your own question on the copper DVW? I would go with metal ball valve if you are going to drain it like it should be. Plastic is fine if you are never going to touch it for 10 years until you drain it to replace it.

fredg · Feb 23, 2006, 06:18 AM

Hi,
This is just a thought. You said if you buy a new water heater, you want natural gas.
If you don't have money for high gas bills, have you considered electric?
Natural gas bills in the United States are going out of sight, with only increases expected. Electricity is now the way to go, if you are concerned with monthly bills. But, of course, if you can fix your waterheater, these comments don't matter. Best of luck.

PalmMP3 · Feb 23, 2006, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by labman

Say MP3, aren't you sort of answering your own question on the copper DVW?

Not really. We keep going around in circles, because apparently there is some sonfusion as to what I was asking. My question was: never mind that it CAN be used; what I was wondering is that given the high price of copper, coupled with the fact that you gain absolutely nothing by using it, why would any plumber in his right mind WANT to use copper? It's not like it's cheaper or better than cast iron or PVC! In other words, I can think of no argument - price-wise or quality-wise - to justify plumbing an entire DWV system with copper. So I was curious what "clever genius" came up with the idea of using copper, and why?

Post any answers in the original thread.

Cheers,
Moishe