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    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #41

    Mar 8, 2006, 02:19 PM
    NeedKarma,
    I have done so attentively, and I will continue to do so. I am always interested in the other's point of view.
    It is a good way to learn about other's beliefs and to review the validity and value on one's own belief.
    To not do so is to close one's mind to understanding other people and therein lays a great problem with humanity as to why we cannot get along well with those of another faith, or culture, or set of ideas and ideals
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #42

    Mar 8, 2006, 02:46 PM
    The difficulty with religious discussions such as in this thread is that you have two groups of people: those who believe that the Bible is the written word of G-d, and those who do not. The believers make the assumption that everyone else believes (or should believe), and base all their arguments on that "fact". Unfortunately, people who don't believe the Bible is G-d's word are never going to be convinced by the reciting of scriptures that they don't think are divinely inspired. If someone quoted the Bagavadgita (Hindu Holy Scriptures) instead of the Christian Bible and expected everyone to "just believe" it was the word of G-d with no questions, that person would get laughed off the forum. Since I am neither Christian nor Hindu I take the same view of both. There's no difference to me.

    Personally I am interested to hear all points of view, but it would be refreshing to have someone who believes in the Bible tell me WHY they believe it's the word of G-d, without quoting scriptures.
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #43

    Mar 8, 2006, 03:05 PM
    orange,
    I quote you, "it would be refreshing to have someone who believes in the Bible tell me WHY they believe it's the word of G-d, without quoting scriptures." That is a very interesting desire.
    It would make a marvelous thread, I think.
    In my case I believe that the Bible "contains" the word of God as written by those who understood the inspiration form the level of knowledge, understanding, and culture at the time it was written.

    I believe it as such because I have used it as such and in doing so it has personally in many way proven to me to my satisfaction that it does contains the word of God.

    But I must keep in mind what it meant to the inspired author and then apply that to me in this day and age.
    I could go on at length about there various teaching in the Bible. But space is limited and at present so is my time.
    I hope that helps and is of value to you.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
    Irulan's Avatar
    Irulan Posts: 92, Reputation: 17
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    #44

    Mar 8, 2006, 03:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura
    Irulan,

    I’m sorry, but I must take exception to several things you said

    I’ll quote you, “although many refuse to admit it, most people are confused, especially when it comes to the subjects of heaven - hell - salvation etc.”
    Relatively you might be right about the “most” but about 2 billion people believe in the existence of those.

    Another quote of yours, “reams of bible quotes which don’t amount to a hill of beans”. Those Holy Scripture passages are far more that a “hill of beans” to those who hold them sacred and that is not limited to just Christians and Jews, even the Dali Lama claimed that the bible is sacred.

    You are quoted un all of the following……
    “do your own research” What make you think I have not? I have visited many different religious services and found them interesting.”
    I have studied many via several different means including publications, history, classes, discussions, and experience.

    “Overly enthusiastic words usually written by fervent Christians who will discharge an enormous amount of scriptures from bible pages. This excessive font of words will do two things… bore you to tears and confuse you even more.”
    It will if your mind is turned off from concentrating on the seriousness of the scripture being offered. There are many millions of people who are not confused. If you are that is sad.


    “I did NOT listen to those who wished to convert me to their way of thinking and their religion and above all I did NOT listen to those who claimed that their religion was THE ONE AND ONLY TRYE ONE and all others were doomed and of no value. I can’t say that I have found ALL the answers but I have found what quenches my spiritual thirst.”

    And there in dwells your problem. You DID NOT listen. As a result you did not seek the answers as to why they made such claims. After enough through questioning to find the answers to those claims (some people have hard time verbalizing why they make them so other research is necessary), then you can comfortably accept or reject them, but you will understand them far better and in that IS great spiritual value.

    Thank you for that post. It is very interesting, but I fear not in the manner you intended.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)

    Arcura,

    You quench your spiritual needs your way, and I do the same.

    You may take umbrage to whatever you wish in my words. We all have preferences, mine are what they are, mine. My choices have been made based upon my needs, not yours.

    I have no difficulty with you expressing yourself as you wish, so kindly extend the same courtesy to me as well as others. People DO have the freedom to choose whatever they feel is right for them therefore accept that fact without chagrin, it is a fact of life.

    “ there in dwells your problem” Problem? I have no problem with my choices, they are, after all mine to make and no amount of proselytizing will persuade me in altering my choices or my opinions.

    Now as to your comment …. “ not in the manner you intended ” …. you are being quite presumptuous in telling me what what I mean to say - that is not your call but mine. Neither you nor your beliefs have any bearing on my words or my intentions.

    Don’t bother to attempt to electrify me with the scriptures, they are evidently important to you, they are not to me so don’t waste your time sermonizing to me about scriptures or biblical issues, am not in the least interested. I can see that you are trying to be kind and to “spread the good word” so to speak, but spread them to another person where they will be appreciated.

    Irulan's Avatar
    Irulan Posts: 92, Reputation: 17
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    #45

    Mar 8, 2006, 03:30 PM
    " To say that the faith you believe in is the one and only truth (which is what you said originally) is chauvinistic and biased. "

    Thanks Scott, this is exactly what I believe. This religious exclusivity is extremely biased because it pushes aside any other path to spiritual fullfillment.
    jduke44's Avatar
    jduke44 Posts: 407, Reputation: 44
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    #46

    Mar 8, 2006, 03:45 PM
    The difficulty with religious discussions such as in this thread is that you have two groups of people: those who believe that the Bible is the written word of G-d, and those who do not. The believers make the assumption that everyone else believes (or should believe), and base all their arguments on that "fact". Unfortunately, people who don't believe the Bible is G-d's word are never going to be convinced by the reciting of scriptures that they don't think are divinely inspired. If someone quoted the Bagavadgita (Hindu Holy Scriptures) instead of the Christian Bible and expected everyone to "just believe" it was the word of G-d with no questions, that person would get laughed off the forum. Since I am neither Christian nor Hindu I take the same view of both. There's no difference to me.


    Orange, I agree with you about the two groups of people. I somewhat agree with you on the reciting scripture part. Scripture does hold some power behind it. I think it is how it is presented. Of course, you (meaning anyone) do have your free will to accept it or deny it. I have seen where scripture alone has brought someone to believe. Beating someone over the head with the Word is not the answer I do agree. Presenting in such a way that is non-threatening and inviting is the way to go. But I also feel I don't have to prove God, he is powerful enough to do it by Himself. My obligation is to try not to turn someone off so that they won't believe in Him.

    I have watched a lot of how these types of threads end up going. I am also learning how people are responding to the threads as to what they believe or don't believe. That allows me to bring my point across hopefully without turning someone off or even making the discussion a horrible debate.
    ROLLINWJESUS's Avatar
    ROLLINWJESUS Posts: 6, Reputation: 2
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    #47

    Mar 8, 2006, 06:35 PM
    There is a heaven and a hell and for you to be a believer of GOD u have to believe of the two. As far as which religion to choose I really don't know,just being a good person dosen't save u. do you believe Jesus died for u, was buried and was raised Easter Sunday. If you do u shall be saved. But to stay on this path you must surround yourself around other believers. I think it is great that you are thinking about all this at the age of 15. Life is not promise to none of us my brother died @18. Today I found out my uncle expired. Read the word of God and Pray and let the LORD lead you in the direction he wants you to go in.
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #48

    Mar 8, 2006, 06:49 PM
    Jduke,

    You make a lot of really great points. That's interesting about the belief that scripture has power all on its own. That certainly helps to explain to me why people quote it so often. No one has ever given me that explanation before, so thanks for that! :)

    "My obligation is to try not to turn someone off so that they won't believe in Him". That's a great statement too. I personally have been turned off by what a lot of people who claim to be Christians say and do. I'm so glad to meet a Christian who sees this as a valid thing to be concerned about.

    And yeah the main reason for my post was that I think these debates generally go nowhere. People tend to stay in their own camps. But it's great when people can state and discuss their beliefs without being condescending, rude or insulting. Thanks so much for your post.
    jduke44's Avatar
    jduke44 Posts: 407, Reputation: 44
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    #49

    Mar 8, 2006, 07:07 PM
    Orange, thanks for the comment. I am glad I brought some insight. It is really hard to put yourself aside to really hear what others are saying. This is why you rarely see me respond to these threads unless I feel there is another point that needs to be made.

    I really hope that animeluver06 has found this thread informative. She hasn't responded in awhile.
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #50

    Mar 8, 2006, 10:11 PM
    ROLLINWJESUS,
    I'm sorry that you have recently lost so loved ones.
    You make some goof points, but...
    A person can believe in God and not believe in heaven or hell. I know several people with that type belief.
    But if you believe in the Bible as the word of God then you do automatically believe in heaven and hell. So yes there is great power in Holy Scripture, but leaving it sit on the shelf unstudied provides none of that power.
    Also there is more to do than just believe in Jesus and that he died and rose from the grave to be saved. Why and who for he did that is necessary. Also a person must have a working, not a dead, faith in what Jesus did and what He commanded us to do as His followers.
    Also never forget what he said about forgiveness, those who forgive will be forgiven. That means that those who do not forgive will not be forgiven.
    Only the forgiven go to heaven! So study the other things Jesus said to do to be saved. That is very important.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
    31pumpkin's Avatar
    31pumpkin Posts: 379, Reputation: 50
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    #51

    Mar 8, 2006, 10:23 PM
    I think animeluver06 left 3 weeks. Ago. I now we are up to at least Junior stage?

    Orange: I must quote you. "I personally have been turned off by what a lot of people who claim to be Christians do."
    First I would like to know what that is because perhaps your knowledge of impressionable Christian people was not available to you thus far. Christians have bad habits & bondages sometimes just like everyone else. It doesn't make them any less loved by God. When one is born again, God deposits in one's spirit a seed of His glory that is intended to grow and mature throughout their Christian walk.( Example1.- cursing) I'm convicted in my spirit down to saying," Stop cussing!
    Now there are perhaps many "carnal" Christians. That is the 2nd level which is a stage up from someone whois at level 1- the basic title of Christian b/c he was born one & has just believed in God for yrs., perhaps forgot about Him at times, but at this stage they are only Christians & not born again into Jesus.
    At the carnal Christian level, level 2, one is washed by the blood of Jesus & all of his sin is erased by God, Jesus,& the Holy Spirit b/c God sent Jesus as the great Intercessor for us to pay the penalty for man's sin, & to save us from further sin. Now at this level a person is saved & he starts anew. God tells us that our past sins are erased from His memory. If this person devotes himself to mature in the Spirit he will come under conviction at this time to be sanctified & God will tell him to keep reading His Word regularly & before long this person may come under conviction in their spirit to overcome bondages & such of the flesh. If this person only stays a carnal Christian, by not reading the Bible or attending church, then this person does not grow in the Holy Spirit . Although he has salvation, he misses out on the abundant life do to lack of knowledge .
    & he suffers the consequences still b/c he is unaware of what God wants from his people.
    At the most desirable level is the Born-again Christian who makes an effort to inquire what the Lord would have him do, & how to be a good "saint" for God's Glory. At this stage it gets better.
    Now man is made up of 1) spirit 2) soul<which includes the mind, will, & emotions> 3) the body or the flesh.
    Before we are born again, our house is ruled by "self" & is considered dead spirit. When we ask that Jesus come into our lives to be Lord of our lives, we attest verbally*to God that we believe
    Everything about Jesus's sacrifice.
    Now the man that housed the dead spirit with self, this becomes replaced with an alive spirit, the born again spirit which is no longer controlled by self . Jesus replaces the self spirit. And note: Man's spirit can be only 3 things. Jesus-born again spirit;Self-dead spirit; or Satan-dead spirit.
    Now we even are given the power unto ourselves & others to do good works because God tells us in His Book that this is in His plan. The spirit of a person is that eternal part of us that will continue on beyond the termination of our body's life( Ecclesiastes 12:7) The spirit stands for the highest elements of man by which we comprehend spiritual truths. Our spirit is the most powerful part of our being. It is the part that deals with right & wrong behavior.

    When I was young Religion scared me because I would see maybe at the Port Authority in N.Y.C. in their restrooms, or actually in many public restrooms& trains I'd see some Jesus FANATIC doing writings & graffiti what seemed like crazy to me.

    I think those images plus any fanatics I saw turned me off to the real Jesus.

    I think the only way to be sure to get that born again spirit is to have a heart(which is considered where the spirit is housed) that is ready, willing, & able & humble to learn & start understanding the Lord. To go to a church & feel the anointing of the brothers ( & srs.) when they lay hands upon you for healing or even to get rid of the spirit of rejection or lust or anger, or withcraft. It is then when they are standing in prayer that one can feel the anointing as one nearly drops to the ground. I always was afraid I wouldn't be caught so I had to control a lot of that power.
    And to someone's question about how do I know the Bible was given by inspiration of God. Because I heard the truths from a respected Theologian that I follow daily through his Programs. How he describes the history of the bible throughout the age, & I believe it. I trust what this Reverend says, & I'm just going to take his word for it. God told the Prophets & the Apostles what to speak & what to write.

    He gives me beauty for ashes;
    Strength for fear;
    Gladness for mourning;
    Peace for despair.

    Love & peace
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #52

    Mar 9, 2006, 12:51 AM
    Look at it this way. If you are turned off by what Christians do, are you not also turned off by what others in all walks of life do?
    Life is full of turn offs and turn ons in many aspects thereof.
    If a person is going to not become a Christian because of what some Chrisitians do think of all the great many things a person can not become because of what some people in all those great many things do.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #53

    Mar 9, 2006, 02:54 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura
    If you are turned off by what Christians do, are you not also turned off by what others in all walks of life do?
    If you do not like broccoli then you must also not like all other vegetables. See how asinine that thinking is? No Fred, what bothers people isn't the fact that some people are Christians (or any religion or sect or denomination), what bothers people is the constant preaching and attempts at conversion and being told that what they believe is essentially wrong. No one here is trying to convert you so please don't do it to others. It's the same reason why people are annoyed at the mormons going door to door. Take the lead from your peers such as Rickj or Fr.Chuck who are devout in what they believe in but understand that one's beliefs are of a personal nature.
    ROLLINWJESUS's Avatar
    ROLLINWJESUS Posts: 6, Reputation: 2
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    #54

    Mar 9, 2006, 03:56 AM
    ACURA

    I totally agree with you I came from the stand point of believing in the word of God(THE BIBLE) when it comes to believing in heaven and hell. When I said believing in Jesus I'm merely talking about the bases of being a believer. Next you need to be spiritually feed and that is from studying the word of God and teachings. I must put this out there everything you hear is not true some scriputures are taking out of context purposely,accidentally, etc. that's why you need to know the WORD. BIBLE sitting on the shelf,riding around in the car, no power.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #55

    Mar 9, 2006, 07:01 AM
    This is essentially repeating what I have said before, but it bears repeating especially since its being ignored.

    The one point I agree with Chuck on was that religion, any religion, provides a standard and framework of moral and ethical behavior. Most religions adhere to the same basic standard that has come to be known as the Judeo-Christian ethic.

    Organized religion provides many things for the faithful. Some provide a punishment/reward system to ensure adherence to bahavioral standards. Others just try to promote the logical goodness. There may be other methods as well.

    But what it boils down to is are you a good person. Are you honest, are you generous, do you help people ar abuse them? If you are a good person, then what you believe in terms of organized religion matters not a whit. It doesn't even matter that you believe.

    One doesn't "need to be spiritually feed". Some do, some don't. I don't believe I need to be saved, nor do I want someone prostelytizing to me about it. If anyone wants to promote their religion by telling why it gives them comfort, ease, power, etc. That's fine. But don't start telling me that, if I don't follow your religion I will be damned or an bad or whatever.

    This thread proves that people with disparate views about religion can discuss them politely and dispassionately. It also proves that some people can't, that they have this missionary complex that makes them feel their's is the only true way and they have to get everyone to see that.

    Such people need to take a step back and realize that not everyone believes that same and that there is nothing wrong in that.
    phildebenham's Avatar
    phildebenham Posts: 95, Reputation: 9
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    #56

    Mar 9, 2006, 09:13 AM
    The bible has the answer you need. If you are interested in discussing this one on one (so as to eliminate all the background noise of those who reject the bible), please go to the website: www.oilandwineministries.org and hit the contact us button to send me an email. I will share what the bible says and you can either accept, reject, or question it.

    Blessings,

    Phil Debenham
    iamarcin's Avatar
    iamarcin Posts: 72, Reputation: 4
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    #57

    Mar 9, 2006, 09:13 AM
    I believe that religion is something made up so that people feel better about their delusions.
    If you believe in god then you believe in a god that you and only you know about because if you believe in religion then you believe in somoene else's god
    The only benefit of religion is organization and churches and places to worship
    If you believe that your god wants you to worship in a specific way then chose the religion that fits that style of worship

    I'm taking a psych class so the other day I was wondering:
    If I were a psychologist and I had a patioent that told me that they believed in a god that they never saw or heard
    How would I see that
    I believe I would treat that as a delusion and medicate the patient
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #58

    Mar 9, 2006, 09:23 AM
    Another religion that is gaining popularity: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Believers around the world.
    http://www.venganza.org/
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #59

    Mar 9, 2006, 09:25 AM
    Not all delusions need medical treatment. Personally, I tend to agree that belief in god to the extent that some religions do, is a delusion. But it's a benign one. It does harm to no one, unless that person tries to force their delusion on others.
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #60

    Mar 9, 2006, 10:13 AM
    Edit: Phil commented on the wrong post.

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