[talaniman]

Once you're an adult, the ages go out the window. Sure you may not agree with the choices of others, but you may as well accept it, and let it go, just from the fact it's their choice to make. Its not for us, or anyone else, to try and figure out why people do what they do, that's such a complicated, long process, filled with assumptions, and speculations. Basically a waste of time. You have always heard me say that coping with our feelings, in healthy, positive ways is one life lesson that carries us through our whole life, and that's where your at now SB, and its on you, how you deal with your feelings, and what you do about it. I think you've learned something about yourself, and your attitudes though, that may well give you food for thought now, and in the future. Today it's the age difference of consenting adults. Upfront and right in your face. That's something you need to examine, or at least understand, as older guys will always be attracted to younger females, and vice versa. Is this a deal breaker? Is this something you can't reconcile? Is this something you can't get over? Isn't it funny how life tests our love, and abilities, in ways that shock and scare us? Think about it, as the decision you make will have far reaching consequences in all your future dealings, so best find out, and deal with how you feel. If 54 ain't old, then 40 sure ain't either.

[SJB1701E]

Still, not at 100% but I think it is something I can deal with. The age gap irks me, but its her life and her decisions. I've made plenty of dumba$$ decisions myself, especially at the age I'm at now, and making those mistakes is how I learn and grow. From the feel I got from her today, she is very questioning over that decision and is learning from it. That's what's important. She made some stupid decisions the past couple months, but seems to be learning from them. As for me, I make stupid deciaions every day, including today. I'll leave it at that. Today, the second date, went really well. I have the feeling things will work out between us. Time will tell, one day at a time.

[SJB1701E]

She wants to maintain a friendship with the guy knowing that I am uncomfortable with it. I can't flat out tell her no, but letting her know I am uncomfortable with her continuing a friendship with him did nothing. I am not possessive jealous or controlling on any unhealthy scale and don't mind her having guy friends but this is different. She had/has? "feelings" for him and only recently ended the physical relationship with him and I am threatened by this. I haven't been quite this open to her about it, but what I have said got the response of "deal with it." So much time and emotion already invested in this, I'm not wanting to quit. She assures me that its over with him and that she's just being his friend now. She says she doesn't want to "f*** things up anymore" and wants it to work between me and her, but on this she won't budge. On top of things, the guy just had a heart attack this weekend so now she's upset about that. I'm not in a position to make any demands as far as who she's friends with, but I'm really not comfortable with it. I don't trust him. He's a scumbag lowlife perverted drug addict that pursues girls that are the same age as his daughters (of which he has 2). I kept that opinion to myself. Do I trust her? She assures me its over with him. She's enthusiastic about working on our previous relationship problems and starting again. She says she's still in love with me and isn't involved romatically or physically with anyone else, nor is she looking. Do I bite my tongue until everything stabilizes? I don't want to appear insecure to her, but wouldn't you be in my shoes? Its one obstacle after another. I've gotten through everything so far. Am I making a big deal over nothing?

[SJB1701E]

I guess what I really need to do is just sit down with her and explain my feelings out in the open. Things failed last time due to a communications breakdown and keeping things inside. If we can't communicate openly then this will be doomed from the start. I won't get anywhere being controlling or demanding. Hopefully when I see her this Thursday she will be receptive to listening to me. I think if I approach her the right way and simply explain my feelings that we can work through this. Maybe I am blowing it out of proportion, but I really don't trust this guy, and no matter how much trust I place in her, I can't trust him. I just hope she's smart enough not to put herself in a compromising position with him.

[SJB1701E]

Well I don't think things can get any worse. I got her to finally fess up to everything she was hiding. Everything I suspected is true. But there's a big difference between suspecting and knowing. Where to begin. She started the make out sessions with the guy while we were on a break. I know on here break is generally considered break up but on a technicality it is still cheating. There had been no declaration of it being over. Two days after the break up she slept with him. She said after dealing with the breakup she just wanted meaningless sex but felt like sh!t afterwards. My question, if she felt like sh!t why did she continue her little makeout sessions with him for 2 months? Kind of pointless to ask at any rate. Did I mention I lied to you guys yet? I didn't exactly take things slow. The second date, I slept with her. This of course before she admitted everythign to me. I haven't slept with her since the one time, but still. So this past Saturday, our nice little scheduled lunch date got pretty ing ruined. She spent all day begging and pleading with me. Appologizing to me. Telling me she'd do anything. Desperate for me to forgive her and not walk out of her life. She has now established a history of cheating. She cheated on me and the boyfriend before that. She slept with a guy that's the same age as my dad 2 days after we broke up. I feel strangely numb with slight hints of sadistic torture thoughts drifting through my head. I took this girls virginity and now I guess she felt free to open her legs up to any nasty er that comes along. At any rate I haven't decided what to do yet. The logical thing would be to run as fast as I can. The emotional thing to do would be the same. But I still have feelings for her despite everything. I told her to leave me alone while I think about things. I need some time to myself to absorb everything and sort my thoughts and feelings out. Oh and I haven't lost my head in this. I could have delivered any wild demands I wanted and she would have complied. Instead I was sensible. I said, if I decide to stay she has to agree to random drug tests whenever I feel like it. She isn't to speak to this guy again. And last, I took her to the free clinic and made her get tested for STDs being as I did sleep with her since she slept with the other guy. I know you all will tell me the logical thing to do (to run away fast as I can), but I need to think about things before I decide what to do. I don't think things could get worse. Either way, the worst is over no matter what decision I make. I'll update you guys when I make the decision.

[confused25]

All right, well I haven't posted in a while because I have been busy as hell. However I feel very compelled to respond to your update.

SJB1701E, I think you are a good guy, but I am quickly losing respect for you. I'm honestly very surprised at the things you are saying and doing. First of all, this whole thing about her seeing some guy twice her age... get over it! Personally I'm a little offended because my Mom was 26 and my dad was 52 when I was born. That is a HUGE age gap but they are still married. It's not the greatest marriage but hey not many of them are these days.

Second, its none of your business what she did during the break. When you are on a break you are free to do as you please, no if's, and's, or but's, and there are definitely no "technicalities." Quit holding her past over her head, you have no right to do that. She should not even be asking you for an apology.

Third, your heading down a bad path. You are exhibiting characteristics of potentially being a controlling boyfriend. This whole deal about random drug testings at your will is ridiculous. Again, you have no right to do that. A relationship is about trust, if you don't trust her than get out of this thing before it gets worse.

Fourth, the logical thing is not to run. I'll tell you what the logical thing to do is. The logical thing is to deal with YOUR insecurities about her sleeping with someone else much older than you during a time in which you were not together. Once you have done that, put this whole situation behind you and continue to mend the relationship. Not to long ago you were so hurt about losing her and now that she is back and willing to work things out you want to blindly throw it all away. What's worse is that you are throwing it all away for some very stupid reasons.

Listen, if you truly love this woman than you will accept her for who she is and not force any rules upon her. You will look beyond her flaws, her mistakes, her past and love her for the person she is at this very moment. This girl you love so much is right there in front of you willing to work things out, but I guarantee you will lose her and you will regret it if you continue with your behavior.

Please, don't screw up your second chance.

[Romefalls19]

Confused, I am going to go against you on this one. He isn't screwing up the second chance at all, he is going into this guarded as he should. This girl told him that they just made out and now that she feels she has him back, she is going to drop all the bombs onto him? It would be very wise for you to walk away, as you don't need a liar in your life. If she lied about this, who knows what else she could be hiding. If you stay with her, you're constantly going to question everything she says. It is true that a relationship is about trust, but she servered that trust when she said she only made out with him.

Now I do agree with you about the controlling boyfriend, you can't impose rules onto someone my friend. If she wants to stray, she's going to stray. Simple as that, don't say if she complies with these demands you will feel better, that's a lie. I have been down that road before and she did everything she was supposed to(yes I was a jealous controlling SOB.. keyword.. was) and yet I still questioned her. Once trust is broken between two people, it is very hard to get back. Take this time to think if your life would be better with or without her

[SJB1701E]

Alright, well I haven't posted in a while because I have been busy as hell. However I feel very compelled to respond to your update.

SJB1701E, I think you are a good guy, but I am quickly losing respect for you. I'm honestly very surprised at the things you are saying and doing. First of all, this whole thing about her seeing some guy twice her age...get over it! Personally I'm a little offended because my Mom was 26 and my dad was 52 when I was born. That is a HUGE age gap but they are still married. It's not the greatest marriage but hey not many of them are these days.

Second, its none of your business what she did during the break. When you are on a break you are free to do as you please, no if's, and's, or but's, and there are definitely no "technicalities." Quit holding her past over her head, you have no right to do that. She should not even be asking you for an apology.

Third, your heading down a bad path. You are exhibiting characteristics of potentially being a controlling boyfriend. This whole deal about random drug testings at your will is ridiculous. Again, you have no right to do that. A relationship is about trust, if you don't trust her than get out of this thing before it gets worse.

Fourth, the logical thing is not to run. I'll tell you what the logical thing to do is. The logical thing is to deal with YOUR insecurities about her sleeping with someone else much older than you during a time in which you were not together. Once you have done that, put this whole situation behind you and continue to mend the relationship. Not to long ago you were so hurt about losing her and now that she is back and willing to work things out you want to blindly throw it all away. What's worse is that you are throwing it all away for some very stupid reasons.

Listen, if you truly love this woman than you will accept her for who she is and not force any rules upon her. You will look beyond her flaws, her mistakes, her past and love her for the person she is at this very moment. This girl you love so much is right there in front of you willing to work things out, but I guarantee you will lose her and you will regret it if you continue with your behavior.

Please, don't screw up your second chance.

Ok, confused25 you bring up some good points but let me clarify my position.

First, the age gap isn't the issue, I was just using it as fuel for the fire. The real problem is that it invalidates her feelings for me in my eyes. It took her 2 DAYS before jumping in bed with someone else. How long did she need to get over me? Hell we'd talked on the phone that day for 2 hours trying to work things out before she did it. What was I, chopped liver? May be ego bruising, but good God, how long did it really take her to get over me. Certainly didn't take her very long to get under someone else. How much could she ever really have loved me? How do I know that I'm nothing more than the "safe bet" to her? Plus, it is my business now that I've slept with her since then, even if just once. It was STUPID of me to jump in bed with her, that was my mistake. But in this day and age, where 1 in 4 teenage girls has an STD what do you think the stats are on college age people? Its very much my business who she slept with. I was perfectly in my bounds to ask for an STD test.

Second, a break means space. It doesn't mean break up. It doesn't matter that it usually turns into a break up, its still cheating while just a break. What if it hadn't turned into a break up and a few weeks later the break ended and we picked up the relationship again? Would what she did during the space not count as cheating. If it doesn't than by that logic, all I have to do any time I want to sleep with someone else is ask for a break, sleep with said person, than pick up the relationship where I left off. No harm no foul right? I wouldn't do this but I don't know that she won't.

Third, I have the right to know if I'm dating a cokehead. Coke people. We're not talking a little pot here and there, we're talking coke. A drug that can ruin her life and by extension my life if she's in it. She could be carrying in my car and I get pulled over and searched. They find it on her and I still get busted for having it in my vehicle. And on a personal level, what about the constant WORRY I would have to deal with if she is still on coke? She can KILL herself using it. At that point its not just her life, but the lives of EVERYONE that cares about her, that would be drastically affected. You ever lose someone you love to drugs? I have. My brother DIED overdosing on drugs. I won't lose someone else I love to them. Its not enough to say she's clean, she needs to prove it, to me and everyone else that cares about her. Its never just your life to do with as you please. Growing up, you realise that its everyone else's lives that yours affects and that the consequences of your actions hurt everyone in your life.

One of the things I'm taking time to myself to think about is how I can ever trust her again. Repeated lying. Cheating on 2 boyfriends. Doing serious drugs and lying to EVERYONE about it. I'm not trying to control her life, but I'm not willing to let her life drag my life down. When someone you love is hurting themselves, you step in. That isn't controlling, that's caring. If she where having thoughts of suicide and putting a gun to herr head every night, is it none of my business, or do I step in? If I see her doing drugs that could kill her, is it none of my business or do I step in? At some point you HAVE to step in. My choices are step in or walk away. I'm not puttig myself in a position to lose someone else I love to drugs. And to be honest I don't think with everything, that that one demand is enough for me to be considered controlling. And I know you didn't bring it up, but asking her not to speak to the guy again is very acceptable given the circumstances. It was a non-issue when I asked it of her and she had no problem with it.

Romefalls19 is exactly right about trust and that she severed my trust and furthermore my respect for her. I don't think I am being overly controlling. I asked 3 things of her and that was it. You guys only made an issue of one of them. I hope I made my position clear on it and why its so important to me because I want you guys to understand why. I have no more demands for her. Thouse 3 things were all I asked of her. I wouldn't drug test her for life, just maybe 3-4 times over the next 6 months. Enough to prove she's staying clean and that she isn't addicted. I don't believe her to be addicted, but I need to know she's staying clean.

If I was truly being controlling, she wouldn't have a choice about things. She does. She can accept the ONE big thing I asked of her or she can walk away. She chose to accept it. She AGREED to it. She even wants me to show the results to her parents as well so that they will stop worrying. They trust me. They don't trust her. She knows if I telll them the tests are negative, they'll believe she really is off coke. She accepted it so it shouldn't even be an issue.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but I needed to clarify my positions and I'm trying to sort through everything in my head. I need time before I decide what to do. I don't know at what point I could ever trust her again. I don't know at what point I could ever be intimate with her without thinking about the other guy. I don't know if I can ever respect her again. I don't have any other demands of her. This isn't going to be a pattern of controlling behavior. Three conditions and that is all. Three conditions that she accepted. I hardly abused it when she said she'd do anything to keep me from walking out of her life. I only asked for three things.

confused25, I hope you can respect my reasons for everything. I hope you haven't lost respect for me now that I've told you why I asked for the things I asked for. And I'm sorry for offending you with the age thing, please realise I was looking at it from a personal point-of-view, and that I wasn't saying it is wrong for any people to be together with an age gap. I'm sure your parents are wonderful people to have raised a good guy like you and I don't see anything wrong with their age gap. It wasn't a morals thing, it was a personal thing.

[SJB1701E]

He isn't screwing up the second chance at all, he is going into this guarded as he should. This girl told him that they just made out and now that she feels she has him back, she is going to drop all the bombs onto him?

This, my friend, describes exactly how I feel about it.

[Romefalls19]

SJB, I have been in your situation exactly to a T! I did the whole this or that scenario with an ex and it's not a good route to go down. If you can't move past it with no restrictions then it's best to let it go

[SJB1701E]

I know nothing but time could ever let me trust her again. Nothing I ask her to do will instantly restore my trust or respect for her. I look at her and see two people. The woman I love and know, and the woman that she was after we broke up. I love the first and Hate the second. I look at her with a sick mix of disgust and affection. Part of my want to throw up just looking at her and the other part wants to do nothing but hold her and kiss her. Its like I see her as two different people, but intellectually I know that its all just her as a whole. One person. It makes it easier in some regards to think of it as a different person as to not sully the image I have of her, but that's not reality. Her actions, while some would say they are her business (even when they directly affect me), speak for her character and the type of person she is. Restoring real trust and respect for her might take nothing short of an act of God, and I need some time to figure out if I want to give her the chance. I know there's nothing I can ask of her that will restore my trust in her. Only time, if I give her a chance.

[talaniman]

Only time, if I give her a chance.

Red Flag? When you try to change someone into what you think they should be its not love, nor is it acceptance for who they are. Yes, I see a big problem with the path your on right now, as your finding out things you cannot accept, but you must acknowledge ...............you asked for it!

[SJB1701E]

Only time, if I give her a chance.

Red Flag? When you try to change someone into what you think they should be its not love, nor is it acceptance for who they are. Yes, I see a big problem with the path your on right now, as your finding out things you cannot accept, but you must acknowledge ...............you asked for it!

Out of context tal... I wasn't saying I can change her over time, I was saying my respect and trust for her can only be gained again over time. She's wanting to be the person she used to be. She says she hates what she became. I believe her and I see her making the effort to do so ON HER OWN. I'm still going to think about this for a while and whether I can forgive her of her mistakes. I know I either have to accept her or not. I'm not wanting to change her. I just don't want to be in a position to be hurt again if she starts going down a dark and dangerous path again. I'm just being guarded. I'm not trying to change her. She's trying to change for herself and for her own well being. I believe her and I see it happening.

As for the drug testing, I talked to her today about a lot of things. I went back on what I said and decided to still do one drug test, and only one, just so I could get her parents off my back by giving them proof that she's off them. This will make both my life and hers easier if they stop worrying so much. She thought it was a great idea. She looked me in the eye and promised (on her own) that she won't use them anymore, that she hated what they did to her, and that she doesn't want to be that person anymore. That was good enough for me.

As for the other guy, it has nothing to do with his age or what or who he is. It has nothing to do with whether we were broke up or not. It has to do with my perception of her and my opinion of her. She jumped in bed with a guy two DAYS after we broke up like the two years we had together meant nothing to her. She took no time to grieve and wasn't upset at all. Like I meant NOTHING to her. That's where the hurt comes from. She called it revenge sex like she was getting back at me. She said I hurt her and at the time she wanted something to hurt me back with. She said it only made her feel worse and now that I found out she wished it never happen. She regrets it happened at all. I just got to figure out if its something I can get past.

[Questions2007]

[QUOTE=SJB1701E] She jumped in bed with a guy two DAYS after we broke up like the two years we had together meant nothing to her. She took no time to grieve and wasn't upset at all. Like I meant NOTHING to her.

Do you honestly think she split up with you and then just happened upon this guy only two days after you broke up. At best, she left you for him, at worst, she was seeing him when you were still together.

Remember, the best indicator of future behaviour is past actions. Be very careful.

[SJB1701E]

She jumped in bed with a guy two DAYS after we broke up like the two years we had together meant nothing to her. She took no time to grieve and wasn't upset at all. Like I meant NOTHING to her.

Do you honestly think she split up with you and then just happened upon this guy only two days after you broke up. At best, she left you for him, at worst, she was seeing him when you were still together.

Remember, the best indicator of future behaviour is past actions. Be very careful.

I'm not so naïve... I know that she was interested in him prior to the break up. I was being an uncaring jack@ss to her due to emotional problems of my own and not being able to cope with circumstances in other areas of my life. I shut her out emotionally months before the breakup. In her words, and I happen to agree with her on this, when she gave up on me, it was long after I had already given up on myself. She said I hated myself so much, it made it difficult for her to love me. She eventually gave up. I blame her for her actions, but I set myself up for her to leave me and for another guy to swoop in like a vulture. Vultures circle something when they know its going to die soon. This guy told her just what she wanted to hear and gave her what I stopped giving her. And the guy got what he wanted, a halfway decent lay. She started making out with him before we broke up. She slept with him after. I believe her on this. That being said, her leaving me for this guy appears the more likely senario in this case. That's how I see it. I also see him as nothing more than a rebound to her. I know its not the healthiest thing, and I know she is responsible for her own actions, but I do blame myself more than anyone for this whole mess.

[SJB1701E]

I would also like to say she has admitted to making out with him before the breakup... i.e. cheating... and to sleeping with him after the break up. Its not like she's still lying to me. What would be the point? She's already told me the worst news. Even if she did sleep with him prior to the breakup, it wouldn't really make a difference at this point. Cheating is cheating no matter how far you actually go. You see, at this point there is no point to keep lying to me and hiding things from me. What difference would it make. It would be lying about pointles symantics. Anything short of "I had to abort his b@st@rd child" wouldn't really make a difference now would it? What news could she possibly be hiding at this point that would be worse than what she already told me? Even if she slept with him more than once it wouldn't make a difference. She can't really drop any worse bombs than she's already dropped.

[Questions2007]

I would also like to say she has admitted to making out with him before the breakup... i.e. cheating... and to sleeping with him after the break up. Its not like shes still lying to me. What would be the point? Shes already told me the worst news. Even if she did sleep with him prior to the breakup, it wouldn't really make a difference at this point. Cheating is cheating no matter how far you actually go. You see, at this point there is no point to keep lying to me and hiding things from me. What difference would it make. It would be lying about pointles symantics. Anything short of "I had to abort his b@st@rd child" wouldn't really make a difference now would it? What news could she possibly be hiding at this point that would be worse than what she already told me? Even if she slept with him more than once it wouldn't make a difference. She can't really drop any worse bombs than shes already dropped.

So why take someone back who has done that? I think you are making excuses for her, and I don't think she comprehends the way she has behaved. The red flags Tal refers to are clearly there.

Even if you do get back together, will you be able to forget this behaviour? If yes, go for it, if not, I think you could be storing up resentment for a later date.

[SJB1701E]

I haven't made any decisions as of yet. Just sorting everything out. Like I said, I hold her fully responsible for her own actions. I also hold myself responsible for my actions. If you saw the shattered girl I see now, you would see she fully comprehends the scope of her actions, however only after she committed them. She understands what she did and the people it hurt and exactly what she became. I know this from observation. She saw herself in the mirror metaphorically speaking. She didn't think through the consequences of her actions before committing them, which is a testement to her maturity, but she realises what she has done after the fact and owns up to her mistakes, which also stands as a testement to her maturity.
I'm not making any decisions until I take time to think about things.

[talaniman]

Or you could conclude her life was a wreck, and she wants you to save her from herself. Another red flag.

[Questions2007]

Or you could conclude her life was a wreck, and she wants you to save her from herself. Another red flag.

Absolutely. She is not some teenager either. She is a grown woman who should have her own life in control.

I think you should take a step back. Does she see you as the sticking plaster for her problems? In other words, was this behaviour she carried out inevitable no matter who she was with? If you think that is a possibility, you have another red flag. You do not want to spend your whole life being a nurse for someone.

You can only help someone so much, at some point they need to start helping themselves.