[excon]

yup and Irving Berlin was a great Christian also . "God Bless America......"

Hello again, tom:

Really?? I thought he was a yid. Hmmm, his birth name is Israel Isidore Baline. That's a nice Christian name.

excon

[tomder55]

I was joking... Happy Purim

[George_1950]

Have you ever heard the Battle hymn of the Republic sung in your Church. We sing it every fourth of July:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;

This is from the Bible. The Lord refers to Jesus:
Luke 2 29 Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; 30 Because my eyes have seen thy salvation,

He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;

Vintage means wine. Wine is the fruit of the grape.

Apocalypse 14 10 He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb.

He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;

Ezechiel 29 8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will bring the sword upon thee: and cut off man and beast out of thee.


His truth is marching on.

John 14 6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.


Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

John 1 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Psalms 20 6 His glory is great in thy salvation: glory and great beauty shalt thou lay upon him.

Psalms 104

1 Alleluia. Give glory to the Lord, and call upon his name: declare his deeds among the Gentiles.

This hymn has been sung for centuries in the United States. I'm pretty sure it assumes belief in Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You never know what is in someone else's heart. I agree with Martin Luther, that the Book of James could have been left out of the New Testament, but James does affirm that 'by your works shall you be known', or to that affect.
When "Battle Hymn" is sung, I see Generals Grant and Sherman, and Honest Abe, prosecuting their version of ethnic cleansing in Georgia and South Carolina. Jesus is the farthest thing from my mind.

[michealb]

The bible has many references on how slavery is acceptable(Exodus 21:8). So slavery would be one of those Christian values that America was founded on.

[ScottGem]

Yes

[Dark_crow]

WASP, ever heard the term? White Anglo-Saxon Protestant’s founded this country and were the Power behind the government until beginning of the 20th centaury.

[De Maria]

The bible has many references on how slavery is acceptable(Exodus 21:8). So slavery would be one of those Christian values that America was founded on.

No. Slavery as it was practiced in America was essentially kidnapping and therefore a sin against the dignity of man. Slavery or more accurately, servitude as seen in the Bible was simply recognizing of the hardships of life.

Exodus 21:1 These are the judgments which thou shalt set before them. 2 If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years shall he serve thee: in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3 With what raiment he came in, with the like let him go out: if having a wife, his wife also shall go out with him. 4 But if his master gave him a wife, and she hath borne sons and daughters: the woman and her children shall be her master's: but he himself shall go out with his raiment. 5 And if the servant shall say: I love my master and my wife and children, I will not go out free:

6 His master shall bring him to the gods, and he shall be set to the door and the posts, and he shall bore his ear through with an awl: and he shall be his servant for ever. 7 If any man sell his daughter to be a servant, she shall not go out as bondwomen are wont to go out. 8 If she displease the eyes of her master to whom she was delivered, he shall let her go: but he shall have no power to sell her to a foreign nation, if he despise her.

The Bible recognized the hardship of those times and permitted people to sell themselves and their children into slavery to seek a better life. Note that they were expected to be freed after seven years however. And note that they were not to be sold to their enemies.

Even today, every nation practices a legal form of slavery called imprisonment in which people lose their freedom as a penalty for breaking the law.

So, to compare slavery documented in the Bible during those ancient times one must put the practice in context of those times.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[excon]

Hello again:

I guess this means that you Christians ain't going to answer my questions. Instead, you'd rather lay some bible on me... Oh well, I could have figured.

excon

[ScottGem]

De Maria,

Thanks, you fell right into my trap. ;) I don't deny any of the things you cite, but I maintain these are not solely "Christian" principles, but rather judeo-christian principles. Most of these principles that you listed come from the Ten Commandments or are based in the Old Testament. So should we then say that America is a Jewish nation?

I think it very chauvinistic of Christians to think they have a monopoly on the prinicples of peace, life and liberty. My argument is not that this country wasn't founded on principles near and dear to Christians, but that many of those principles existed before Christ nor are they solely the province of Christians.

[ScottGem]

Hello again:

I guess this means that you Christians ain't gonna answer my questions. Instead, you'd rather lay some bible on me...... Oh well, I coulda figured.

excon

Ok, let me try to answer.

No I do not believe that America is a Christian nation. I do believe that many Americans like to believe that America stands for Truth, Justice and the American Way (oh wait that's Superman and he was a foreigner ;) ) I think that many Americans do have high ideals and even practice them. But the real truth is that the one abiding principle that is ingrained in the American psyche is individualism.

[michealb]

Right the bible has an entire section on how to treat your slaves, which means slavery is permitted and is part of the religious values of those people. If it wasn't a moral value of Christians to have slaves the book would say don't buy slaves or you will go to hell. A book written by an all powerful being wouldn't have to make allowances for how life was, it would be right from the start. So either the bible isn't the work of god or your god says it's okay to have slaves, which since you get your morals from god that means you think it's okay to have slaves. Those are your only two options. So if your going to claim that the country was founded on Christian values you have to claim the bad as well as the good.

[Dark_crow]

“You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men.”—1 Cor. 7:23.

In a speech to the General Conference of the Methodist Protestant Church in 1842, Alexander McCaine stated that the institution of slavery was “ordained by God Himself.” Was McCaine correct? Did God approve of the kidnapping and raping of girls, the heartless separating of families, and the cruel beatings that were part and parcel of the slave trade of McCaine's day? And what of the millions who are forced to live and work as slaves under brutal conditions today? Does God condone such inhumane treatment?

On the contrary, “God heard their groaning and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Furthermore, Jehovah told his people: “I shall certainly bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians and deliver you from their slavery.”—Exodus 1:14; 2:23, 24; 6:6-8.

Clearly, the Bible does not condone the ill-treatment of others in any form. On the contrary, it encourages respect and equality among men. (Acts 10:34, 35) It exhorts humans to treat others the way that they would like to be treated. (Luke 6:31) Moreover, the Bible encourages Christians humbly to view others as superior, regardless of their social standing. (Philippians 2:3) These principles are totally incongruous with abusive forms of slavery practiced by many nations, especially in recent centuries.

The Bible gives no indication that the enslavement of humans by other humans was part of God's original purpose for mankind. Furthermore, no Bible prophecies allude to humans owning fellow humans through slavery in God's new world. Rather, in that coming Paradise, righteous ones “will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble.”—Micah 4:4.

[michealb]

In a speech to the General Conference of the Methodist Protestant Church in 1842, Alexander McCaine stated that the institution of slavery was “ordained by God Himself.” Was McCaine correct?

If you believe that the bible is the word of god then yes he was correct.

[Dark_crow]

To the contrary, your argument is that God allowed slavery therefore he approved…that is not different than the argument that God allows sin therefore he must approve.

[michealb]

The bible condems sin, it doesn't condem slavery just the extreme mistreatment of slaves and has a handy little rule book on how to treat your slaves. Sounds to me like its saying it's okay to own just don't mistreat them. Which would make slavery a religious value.

[Dark_crow]

Clearly, the Bible does not condone the ill-treatment of others in any form. On the contrary, it encourages respect and equality among men. (Acts 10:34, 35) It exhorts humans to treat others the way that they would like to be treated. (Luke 6:31) Moreover, the Bible encourages Christians humbly to view others as superior, regardless of their social standing. (Philippians 2:3)

The Bible states that “man has dominated man to his injury.” (Ecclesiastes 8:9) This is perhaps nowhere more evident than in the oppressive forms of slavery that have been devised by man, not God.

Some Jews voluntarily became slaves to their fellow Jews in order to repay debts. This practice protected people from starvation and actually allowed many to recover from poverty. Furthermore, at key junctures in the Jewish calendar, slaves were to be released if they so desired. (Exodus 21:2; Leviticus 25:10; Deuteronomy 15:12) Commenting on these laws regarding slaves, Jewish scholar Moses Mielziner stated that a “slave could never cease to be a man, he was looked upon as a person possessing certain natural human rights, with which the master even could not with impunity interfere.” What a stark contrast to the abusive systems of slavery that mar the annals of history!

[De Maria]

De Maria,

Thanks, you fell right into my trap. ;)

You must be ready to debate then? :)

I don't deny any of the things you cite, but I maintain these are not solely "Christian" principles,

Did anyone say they were solely Christian principles? No. But they are Christian principles.

but rather judeo-christian principles.

Did anyone say they were not Judeo-Christian principles? But did any Jews sign the Declaration of Independence or assist in the revolutionary war against the English?

Most of these principles that you listed come from the Ten Commandments or are based in the Old Testament. So should we then say that America is a Jewish nation?

In my opinion, this is a Christian nation because it was established by Christian people based on Christian principles. So, no, it is not a Jewish nation, although Jewish Law is embedded in Christian principles.

I think it very chauvinistic of Christians to think they have a monopoly on the prinicples of peace, life and liberty. My argument is not that this country wasn't founded on principles near and dear to Christians, but that many of those principles existed before Christ nor are they solely the province of Christians.

If that was your point, don't you think you should have made it before? Because it sounded to me as though you wanted to prove that they weren't Christian principles at all.

And...

Whether you think Christians are chauvinistic or not is besides the point.

And...

Whether these principles are shared by other groups is also besides the point. Because Christian people did not go out of their way to establish a nation upon the principles of a people foreign to them.

Caught in your own trap? ;)

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ScottGem]

Caught in your own trap? ;)

Not in the least. None of what you said comes close to challenging the point. People still refer to Christian principles not Judeo-Christian prinicples. The omission tells the story.

But did any Jews sign the Declaration of Independence or assist in the revolutionary war against the English

No, there were no Jews in the Continental Congress because your "all men are created equal" Christian founding fathers didn't think they were equal enough. But yes Jews did assist in the Revolution:
How the Jews Saved the American Revolution
Crash Course in Jewish History Part 55 - Jews and the Founding of America
The American Revolution: Haym Salomon

[tomder55]

For a matter of historical accuracy the Answer is yes ;there were American colonial Jews who fought in the Revolution. Here is a little known fact ;the 1st person in Philadelphia to sign the non-importation agreement in reaction to the Stamp Act was a man named Mathais Bush;a Jew .He was President of the Mikve Israel Congregation .

The Jewish population of the colonies was split as were the rest of the colonies over support for the war .But the Jewish population was largely supportive. In one of the first major battles ;Bunker Hill ,Aaron Solomon stood in the front ranks . Francis Salvador of South Carolina was the first Jew killed in the war. Many more Jews fought and sacrificed for American independence.

It is noteworthy to consider that a major arms supply network was established on Dutch St. Eustatius island by Jewish arms traders. A British fleet under Admiral Sir George Rodney was sent to destroy the supply base at about the same time that Lord Cornwallis began his retreat to Yorktown. Had the fleet not been otherwise occupied it is possible that Cornwallis could've been resupplied . As it turned out a weakened British fleet trying to resupply Cornwallis was defeated by French Admiral Degrasse. The battel of Yorktown was lost and Cornwallis surrendered .
So yes ,Jews did have a small but major contribution to American Independence.

Also of note ; at least 5000 African Americans fought for the colonials.

[N0help4u]

I always hear the 'America is a Christian nation' and I have been saying for a long time that
I do not believe it is because many so called Christians are in name only.
Like many people say they are Christian because their grandmother always told them they were Christian. Many are professing Christians and have no idea what being a Christian really means.