[Hope12]

Hello Everyone,

(1 Corinthians 15:12) Now if Christ is being preached that he has been raised up from the dead, how is it some among YOU say there is no resurrection of the dead?

John 11:11, 14-44: “[Jesus said to his disciples:] ‘Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.’.. . Jesus said to them outspokenly: ‘Lazarus has died.’.. . When Jesus arrived, he found he [Lazarus] had already been four days in the memorial tomb.. . Jesus said to her [Martha, a sister of Lazarus]: ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’.. . He cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, come on out!’ The man that had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his countenance was bound about with a cloth. Jesus said to them: ‘Loose him and let him go.’”

Now think about this:
If Jesus had called Lazarus back from a state of bliss in another life in heaven, as some feel that is where good people go when they die, that would have been no kindness. But Jesus’ raising Lazarus up from a lifeless state was a kindness both to him and to his sisters. Once again Lazarus became a living human.
Also take note of this scriptures:

(John 5:28-29) Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
Acts 24:15: “I have hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”

First of all, if all good people go to heaven, why would these scriptures be in the bible? John speaks of a resurrection of judgment. Why? Does a good person go to heaven and then God call them out of heaven to be judged? Or are the dead asleep in their graves as (Ecclesiastes 9:5) 5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” And also how John 5: 28 says: “because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out,” Could the possibility be that the dead are not in heaven but as the scriptures say in their memorial tombs? (their graves).

Also think about this, why would those who did good things need a resurrection if they are already in heaven with Jesus? The scripture in John 5:28,29 says that the good will be resurrected to life.

Now to the point of matters, if the good people go to heaven and the wicked go to hellfire, who are the ones Jesus will resurrect? Remember that John 5:28.29 says their will be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. This is really confusing, because it makes the Bible sound like it is a lie, or could it be the teachings of the many that are false. What do you think? Can you explain this to my confused mind?

Take care,
Hope12

[RickJ]

how is it some among YOU say there is no resurrection of the dead?

I haven't seen this as a question or debate here (amongst those who follow the same Scripture).

Now to the point of matters, if the good people go to heaven and the wicked go to hellfire, who are the ones Jesus will resurrect? Remember that John 5:28.29 says their will be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. This is really confusing, because it makes the Bible sound like it is a lie, or could it be the teachings of the many that are false. What do you think? Can you explain this to my confused mind?

Thousands of volumes have been written on this subject (of the Resurrection and Judgment) for nearly 2000 years - yet nowhere do we find an exact answer; questions and debate remain. We do, though, see evidence that we're not zipped off to heaven or hell at the moment of death:

"it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27).

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

(Surely folk who are in heaven will not be "pulled out" for "separation" and a public revealing of our sins, right?)

There are many mysteries of the Christian Faith - and exactly what happens at the moment of death for each of us is one of them.

Finally, here is a bit more on it from our Catechism: How do the dead rise?

[chrisl]

Thousands of volumes have been written on this subject (of the Resurrection and Judgment) for nearly 2000 years - yet nowhere do we find an exact answer; questions and debate remain.

Well, only one volume--the Bible--is necessary for a reliable answer, and it is very exact.

There are many mysteries of the Christian Faith - and exactly what happens at the moment of death for each of us is one of them.

It's only a mystery when trying to combine unreliable human traditions and philosophies with what the Bible really teaches. The Bible is the only trustworthy source for this information.

At Genesis 3:19 God told Adam what death meant: "for dust you are and to dust you will return" and Jesus himself confirmed this description, likening death to sleeping in the case of Lazarus at John 11:11-14. It's simple: death = non-existence/unconsciousness. Once we die, our hope for future life is a resurrection, just as Jesus showed with Lazarus.

So where does the idea come from that it's not that simple? Note what Satan said to Eve: "You will not surely die" (Gen 3:4)

The real "mystery" is the teaching of the immortal soul, which is unscriptural (Ezekiel 18:4). Reason on it: God said we die and cease to exist. Satan said we don't really die. Which one does does the immortal soul teaching agree with?

Chris

[RickJ]

What, then, is the answer to hope12's question?

[chrisl]

What, then, is the answer to hope12's question?

I think Hope12 wants those who believe in the heaven/hell afterlife teachings to reason on what the Bible says, not have me answer.

I thought my post was clear: the idea that people die and their immortal souls go to heaven or hell is a false teaching. While you may have a slightly different belief--I guess Catholics believe in some sort of mysterious "middle ground" for souls like limbo or purgatory--there are still many others who think the Bible teaches that people die and either go to heaven to play harps on clouds with the angels, or go to hell to burn forever while demons jab them with pitchforks.

The Bible teaches the truth about what happens at death and that souls are not immortal, which puts these other common heaven/hell afterlife teachings in conflict with John 4:23-24 and John 17:17.

But, I think Hope12 knows that... ;)

Chris

[RickJ]

Yes, I see the question asked not because the asker wants to know... but because he wants to know what we think.

You said "It's simple: death = non-existence/unconsciousness. Once we die, our hope for future life is a resurrection, just as Jesus showed with Lazarus."

Simple?

"Non-existence"? We are eternal beings. Nowhere in scripture is it implied that we cease to exist at any point.

No, not simple - and not a bad thing to recognize that Scripture alone does not give us every detail about how God has things planned.

This issue is just not cut and dried; the evidence being that however many Christian churches in a square mile is probably about the number of explanations you'll get from each on this issue.

It's an interesting contemplation, but thankfully one no Christian needs to "worry" about if we are focusing foremost on

Matthew 22, The Greatest Commandment:
"36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

On that can we agree? :D

[Starman]

....

The Bible teaches the truth about what happens at death and that souls are not immortal, which puts these other common heaven/hell afterlife teachings in conflict with John 4:23-24 and John 17:17.

But, I think Hope12 knows that... ;)

Chris

I agree that God was very clear in what he told Adam in Eden. The one who was trying to muddy the waters of comprehension was Satan by saying the opposite.

Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

That the soul is susceptible to death and therefore not immortal is expressed repeatedly in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. James tells us that souls are saved from an otherwise inevitable death.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

John describes souls as dying. If indeed souls were immortal, then death would be something completely meaningless in relation to them.

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Psalms describes what happens at death very clearly

Psalm 146:

3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

KJV

BTW

Immortality is mentioned in the Bible only in relation to God and those he rewards due to faithfulness and faith in the Ransom Sacrifice. So immortality is a reward and is conditional and not an inherent given as the serpent in Eden implied.

Neither is death something that God instituted as part of a plan to get mankind into heaven. This should be obvious since the Bible calls death an enemy and not a benefactor.



1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

[Fr_Chuck]

First we have to remember that the entire bible has to be used, All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God, so by that term, there is no one who has done enough "good" to be included. The good are often looked at as those who have accepted Christ, since their sins are cleansed, merely taking food to the homeless does not cleanse your sins.

Next of course you have different people trying to explain similar things to different people, gentiles and others explaining things to the Jews using terms and expressions that the others would be familiar with.

Our bodies stay in the ground, and it is our physcial bodies that are being called back and we will be united with a physcial body again.

And Jesus most likely brought Lazarus back because he had to show his human and God nature. He could have merely cured him from afar, but allowed him to die, so that his power would known.

One could say that it would be heartless for him not to cure the entire world of all disease, or why he did not just make a earthly kingdom at that time.
And there is even a reason he waited till the 4th day, it was Jewish belief that the soul did not leave the body till after the 3rd day, so if he had brought him back prior to 3 days, he would not have been religiously dead yet in the idea that his soul had left the body according to their religious teachings.

And of course this leads us to the idea and belief in Paridise, which Jesus told the thief on the cross he would see him tomorrow. Since Jesus had not accended yet on the 1 day, he would have not been in heaven yet.

so this helps of course support the Catholic teachings of a "holding" area of sorts where all go waiting on judgement