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    fabergasted's Avatar
    fabergasted Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Mar 6, 2008, 07:14 AM
    how do you dispute eroneous contractor charges
    A good friend recently contracted with "a major home improvement retailer" to install her vinyl kitchen flooring. I was present when the sub-contractor arrived on the job and he explained that the floor needed repair before he could start the job. One section of subflooring had to be removed and replaced with plywood. Some of the planking above the Joists also had to be removed. The area damaged was less than 4 x 8 but it was easier to repair a 4 x 8 section rather than a smaller area. Subcontractor called his "supervisor" (big retailer employee we find out after the fact, we thought we were talking to dispatcher that employed installer, Supervisor never stated he was employee of big retailer) and advised him of the problem. Supervisor talked to home owner and said the additional cost to repair the floor would be $1900.00. Home Owner said no, she would have the job repaired herself and reschedule the installation. Supervisor said she would incur a $300 trip charge since he had to pay the installer for the day and he didn't have any other work for the day. Supervisor was told no, that the charges were unreasonable and predatiious as the repair consisted of installing 2 pcs. Of plywood stacked. (the repair consisted of two pcs. Of plywood stacked on each other and the removal of the old material). She stated the job was canceled for today and she would reschedule next week when the repair was completed. We then started working on ripping up the material ourselves as we were going to do the repair having some construction experience. Supervisor got back on the phone with installer and then got back on the phone with both the home owner and myself. I have personally GC'd the construction of 2 of my homes and although no expert, have more than rudimentary construction knowledge. Owner told Supervisor that she could not afford the additional charge and could not complete the installation. She handed the phone to me and I told the Supervisor that it was unreasonable and predatory to charge $1900. To install 2 sheets of plywood that the original quote included the installation of 1/2" plywood over the total floor "if needed" for $610.00 how could be possibly try to charge $1900 to install 2 stacked pcs of plywood in one spot. He than offered to reduce the price to $1100 which was still quite unreasonable and he was again told no. He got on the phone again with the installer (who spoke spanish over the phone this time and all previous times) and after a lengthly conversation handed the phone back to me. Supervisor than said to me, he didn't realize the job was as small as it was and could do the job for $520. at no time did he indicate that he was planning on using the $610.00 budgeted for plywood "if needed" towards this repair, it was $520. TOTAL charge. I asked him clearly if $520 was the total cost for the repair and he said yes. I handed the phone to the Owner and he repeated the offer to the Owner which was accepted. Sometime later during the installation, the installer spoke to Owner to sign off on a change in the number of seams since not enough material was sent to install the job with only one seam unless the material was reversed in direction and some difference in sheen might be noticed. Owner said she would but would also need installer to sign off on the fact that the 1/4" of plywood "if needed" in the original quote was not used as were the 2 additional containers of leverler. During the estimation part of the process she asked if the plywood wasn't used would that cost be refunded, big installer said "yes" and she has that comment in writing from "big home improvement retailer" Installer said he could not sign off, we would have to talk to his "boss" whom he called. I then spoke to "his boss" who it now turns out is the company who employes the installer, not an employee of the "big home improvement retailer" who agreed that the 1/4 " plywood and additional leveler wasn't used and said he would contact the "big retailer" to have those charges removed from the bill which he did. A few days later Owner gets a bill from the "big retailer" reflecting a total cost of 1300. For the job which included $610 for the unused plywood " reflecting a total cost of 1300. for the job which included $610 for the unused plywood " and an additional $520. Owner called the "big retailer" and an additional $520. Owner called the "sign off" and manager refused to reduce the charges. Says installer's Boss had no authority to " plywood " that the plywood wasn't used EVEN though Owner has in writting that 1/4" would be refunded if not used. What are her options at this time. It seems clear that the "if needed" never intended to do the job for $520 and was being deceptive and dishonest when he made to offer of $520 "manager". Incidentally the installer on the job offered to do the repair that next weekend for $300.00 TOTAL cost with materials included for cash but couldn't do it the day of install in case the "total cost" sent an inspector to check the job. He would get in trouble if he was caught doing extra work "big retailer". Owner decided to stay with the "under the table" as she was uncomfortable "big retailer" the "stiffing". What options does she have to resolve this dispute. The charge card used was the "big retailer" credit card so hopes of help along those lines seem slim. Does she contact the BBB? How does one go about fighting such dishonest, deceptive practices? Thanks in advance.
    rtw_travel's Avatar
    rtw_travel Posts: 347, Reputation: 36
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    #2

    Mar 6, 2008, 02:06 PM
    So the major issue seems to be that they billed you for $610 plywood 'if needed' even though it wasn't needed? I would stick to that issue and not add confusion with the rest of the information.

    What is the specific wording on the contract that deals with the 'if needed' plywood?

    Have you taken pictures that shows that the extra 1/2" pywood was not needed?
    fabergasted's Avatar
    fabergasted Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Mar 6, 2008, 02:45 PM
    When the quote was first written up my friend contacted "the big home Improvement retailer" and asked that question prior to agreeing to the estimate. Retailer told her that if the contractor "signed off" on any item not used she would not be charged, that the estimate was "worse case". This conversation if verified in the company's log for this contract, my friend has a copy of that log with the date of inquiry. Which incidentally was before the installation date.

    Subcontractor agreed that the plywood wasn't used and did communicate that to "big home improvement retailer. We have verification of that conversation between subcontractor and store in the companies log. It is just the Manager of that "big Home improvement retailer" that manages "contract work" that says that the $610 was to go for the repair in addition to the $520 agreed to. He's lying, knows it and doesn't want to admit to it. Honestly the installer was able to finish the repair in about 1.5 hr, 2 hours if you include the time needed to go to the "retailers' store" and pick up the 3.4" plywood he didn't have on the truck. He was able to complete the whole installation in one day. I think he left the house around 4 PM

    We are taking pictures of the repair area from the basement. Top of the job is hidden by the new floor.
    fabergasted's Avatar
    fabergasted Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
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    #4

    Mar 6, 2008, 02:47 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by fabergasted
    A good friend recently contracted with "a major home improvement retailer" to install her vinyl kitchen flooring. I was present when the sub-contractor arrived on the job and he explained that the floor needed repair before he could start the job. One section of subflooring had to be removed and replaced with plywood. Some of the planking above the Joists also had to be removed. The area damaged was less than 4 x 8 but it was easier to repair a 4 x 8 section rather than a smaller area. Subcontractor called his "supervisor" (big retailer employee we find out after the fact, we thought we were talking to dispatcher that employed installer, Supervisor never stated he was employee of big retailer) and advised him of the problem. Supervisor talked to home owner and said the additional cost to repair the floor would be $1900.00. Home Owner said no, she would have the job repaired herself and reschedule the installation. Supervisor said she would incur a $300 trip charge since he had to pay the installer for the day and he didn't have any other work for the day. Supervisor was told no, that the charges were unreasonable and predatiious as the repair consisted of installing 2 pcs. of plywood stacked. (the repair consisted of two pcs. of plywood stacked on each other and the removal of the old material). She stated the job was canceled for today and she would reschedule next week when the repair was completed. We then started working on ripping up the material ourselves as we were going to do the repair having some construction experience. Supervisor got back on the phone with installer and then got back on the phone with both the home owner and myself. I have personally GC'd the construction of 2 of my homes and although no expert, have more than rudimentary construction knowledge. Owner told Supervisor that she could not afford the additional charge and could not complete the installation. She handed the phone to me and I told the Supervisor that it was unreasonable and predatory to charge $1900. to install 2 sheets of plywood that the original quote included the installation of 1/2" plywood over the total floor "if needed" for $610.00 how could be possibly try to charge $1900 to install 2 stacked pcs of plywood in one spot. He than offered to reduce the price to $1100 which was still quite unreasonable and he was again told no. He got on the phone again with the installer (who spoke spanish over the phone this time and all previous times) and after a lengthly conversation handed the phone back to me. Supervisor than said to me, he didn't realize the job was as small as it was and could do the job for $520. at no time did he indicate that he was planning on using the $610.00 budgeted for plywood "if needed" towards this repair, it was $520. TOTAL charge. I asked him clearly if $520 was the total cost for the repair and he said yes. I handed the phone to the Owner and he repeated the offer to the Owner which was accepted. Sometime later during the installation, the installer spoke to Owner to sign off on a change in the number of seams since not enough material was sent to install the job with only one seam unless the material was reversed in direction and some difference in sheen might be noticed. Owner said she would but would also need installer to sign off on the fact that the 1/4" of plywood "if needed" in the original quote was not used as were the 2 additional containers of leverler. During the estimation part of the process she asked if the plywood wasn't used would that cost be refunded, big installer said "yes" and she has that comment in writting from "big home improvement retailer" Installer said he could not sign off, we would have to talk to his "boss" whom he called. I then spoke to "his boss" who it now turns out is the company who employes the installer, not an employee of the "big home improvement retailer" who agreed that the 1/4 " plywood and additional leveler wasn't used and said he would contact the "big retailer" to have those charges removed from the bill which he did. A few days later Owner gets a bill from the "big retailer" reflecting a total cost of 1300. for the job which included $610 for the unused plywood "if needed" and an additional $520. Owner called the "big retailer" and manager refused to reduce the charges. Says installer's Boss had no authority to "sign off" that the plywood wasn't used EVEN though Owner has in writting that 1/4" plywood "if needed" would be refunded if not used. What are her options at this time. It seems clear that the "manager" never intended to do the job for $520 and was being deceptive and dishonest when he made to offer of $520 "total cost". Incidently the installer on the job offered to do the repair that next weekend for $300.00 TOTAL cost with materials included for cash but couldn't do it the day of install in case the "big retailer" sent an inspector to check the job. He would get in trouble if he was caught doing extra work "under the table". Owner decided to stay with the "big retailer" as she was uncomfortable "stiffing" the "big retailer". What options does she have to resolve this dispute. The charge card used was the "big retailers" credit card so hopes of help along those lines seem slim. Does she contact the BBB? How does one go about fighting such dishonest, deceptive practices? Thanks in advance.
    Oops! I meant 3/4" not 3.4 plywood.
    rtw_travel's Avatar
    rtw_travel Posts: 347, Reputation: 36
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    #5

    Mar 6, 2008, 03:59 PM
    I'm out of my element here, so others please pitch in. Here is what I would do:

    1) tell the credit card company you are disputing the charge. I realize the credit card company is the retailer... but it'll be a separate division and they will have an interest in maintaining happy customers. They could hold that charge on your card until the dispute is settled. Frankly if you have evidence that the plywood was not used... and the contract says you would only be charged if it was used, then you are in the clear. There's nothing that settles a dispute faster than finding a legal method of withholding payment.

    2) Put it all in writing and send it to the boss of the guy who overcharged you. (the credit card guys will want a copy too). If you're feeling particularly ornery, send it up even higher in the chain. Make sure your letters are focused and well written. Get legal help writing it if need be... but try to not make it sound legalese.

    3) You can contact BBB and see what they would suggest.

    4) I'm sure you have legal options such as small claims court, but if it is as you said, you should be able to clear this one up without resorting to legal fees.
    retiredmanvan's Avatar
    retiredmanvan Posts: 35, Reputation: 4
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    #6

    Mar 6, 2008, 04:28 PM
    If this had happened to me I would be writing letters to the home builders association and the business license offices to try and get the license to operate revoked so that when you get your issue settled they would not be able to do this to any one else. There is no building permit required to replace vinyl flooring or to repair a vinyl floor so no inspection is needed.

    As a retired flooring installer of 30 years I have seen this happen all to often to honest hard working people.

    In the future go to Radio Shack and purchase a recording machine and record all conversations of this type and that will cut out the lies of sub contractors and the
    Big Retailers employees. If they get caught on tape lying to a customer it is their JOB.
    glavine's Avatar
    glavine Posts: 895, Reputation: 87
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    #7

    Mar 6, 2008, 05:20 PM
    That all sounds very shady. Here's the deal though... If you agreed to a price of such amount, and there was extra material left... this is not refunded to you. You agreed on a price and that's it. Now that may not been the case with you. I never give refunds on materials that are not used. My estimates are for one price materials and labor. If I have extra material... good for me... if I have to buy more material... bad for me. As for labor if it goes over what I thought it should then too bad a price is a price, but that's just my way since I've found there are less surprised to come up with money being involved. One other thing as far as how they charged you or tried to charge for the extra floor repair was absurd. Those prices quoted to you were attempted robbery in my book. For what ever reason they assumed they could pressure you into a hasty decision and take advantage of you. Anytime a price drops like that, from 1900 to 1100 to 570 there's a problem... that almost felt like a timeshare proposal. Lets talk about what 1900 actually is.. heres an example for 1900 you can have a 10 x 12 pressured treated deck, materials and labor... or a simple 1.5 hours floor repair... seriously this type business practice is what give contractors a bad name. I would pay them but pnly what the original contract states and not a penny more. Id cancel that card with them, and call the BBB and report the company, Id also want to speak with owner or manager not just another peon that can't get anything done. I don't know what your name is but Id make sure they don't forget it!
    clanmac's Avatar
    clanmac Posts: 37, Reputation: 3
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    #8

    Mar 16, 2008, 08:41 PM
    I completely agree with Glavine on this one, don't be one to stand back and be dictated too. Be sure to be heard and rememberd
    Flying Blue Eagle's Avatar
    Flying Blue Eagle Posts: 2,056, Reputation: 225
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    #9

    Mar 16, 2008, 09:49 PM
    Fabergasted - I agree with Galvine also , but you can also notifyCONSUMMERS AFFIRS IN YOUR STATE , they should have a 1-800 phone number, in the state listings and also notify the state licesing board , and if you want to really make your mark on them go to a lawyer and talk to him/her and go from there . You can turn all leagle fees , ( LAWYER< COURT ECT> ECT> ) over to where they have to pay all of them . You have a good caseSo go to it ,They deserve it fully, As he stated above ( ITS ONES LIK THEM THAT GIVES HONEST CONTRACTORS A BAD NAME AND MAKES IT HARD FOR THEM TO GET WORK IN A HONEST WAY :: GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS ::: F.B.E. ;;P.S. I WORKED IN CONSTRUCTION FOR ALMOST $% YEARS <> I CONTRACTED FOR !% YEARS
    creditagents's Avatar
    creditagents Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Apr 24, 2008, 09:11 PM
    If I'm understanding this correctly, small claims court is the answer. Filing in small claims only takes 5 minutes, and a few dollars, which you will get back if you win. Most likely, if tis a big box retailer, they will settle out of court. If they settle, be sure to get your disputed amount, plus court costs.
    twinkiedooter's Avatar
    twinkiedooter Posts: 12,172, Reputation: 1054
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    #11

    Apr 26, 2008, 12:11 PM
    Contact the head office of big home improvement store and tell them of the scam going on at the local store. I am sure they would be more than happy to put a stop to that. You need to let them know how you were almost bamboozled into paying a fortune for several pieces of plywood. In the meantime, dispute the charges on your charge card until you hear something back from the head office. They have a reputation at stake - not the local store - so they should try and resolve this problem for you. Keep at it until you can talk to someone there at head office who will listen. You don't have to keep going into the small stuff like you did here, but try to narrow down your spiel until it's less than a 2 mintue speech. Go for it.

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