[firmbeliever]

Jews came before Chrisitianity yet they believe and follow monotheism.Where did the Jews find their concept of monotheism?

I believe that the mythological Gods and demi Gods from human and animal kind were created by different groups of people after the messengers who preached monotheism passed away.

The belief in One Almighty even among many Gods is not uncommon in many ancient communities.They seem to have an idea that a Supreme being exists,but the people have found ways to accommodate demi gods or worship natural objects or man made objects as Gods along with a supreme being.

I was just thinking of Jesus(alaihi salaam) when I saw an answer on the Christianity thread regarding similarities between Horus and Jesus(alaihi salaam).This got me thinking and I realised that the same thing must have happened to other messengers and Prophets(before Jews and Christians) that after the Messengers(pbu them all) left this world people mixed their true beliefs with something of their ancient beliefs and came up with a new belief.

Like how Jesus(alaihi salaam) is depicted as divine and part of the trinity,and this is similar to an ancient mythology which believed in demi gods.

[De Maria]

....

I was just thinking of Jesus(alaihi salaam) when I saw an answer on the Christianity thread regarding similarities between Horus and Jesus(alaihi salaam).This got me thinking and I realised that the same thing must have happened to other messengers and Prophets(before Jews and Christians) that after the Messengers(pbu them all) left this world people mixed their true beliefs with something of their ancient beliefs and came up with a new belief.

Like how Jesus(alaihi salaam) is depicted as divine and part of the trinity,and this is similar to an ancient mythology which believed in demi gods.

All you are doing there is speculating. The belief in Jesus is firmly based on the Gospels which are the eyewitness testimony of the contemporaries of Jesus.

If we compare for instance, the evidence of the Gospels to the evidence for Islam, we find that Mohammed did not provide any evidence for having seen an angel. Or if he did it was the weakest form of evidence since it was not independently witnessed by anyone else.

1. If Mohammed saw an angel, he alone saw it. His testimony boils down to an unsupported claim. No evidence at all.

2. Since Mohammed taught that lying is a good practice in many instances, he would be considered of weak moral character and when this is factored in to his testimony, it becomes even weaker.

However, unlike most religions, within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying is not simply tolerated, but actually encouraged.
Islam Review - Presented by The Pen vs. the Sword Featured Articles . . . Islam: the Facade, the Facts The rosy picture some Muslims are painting about their religion, and the truth they try to hide.

On the other hand,

1. Three eyewitnesses wrote down the life and times of Jesus Christ after having lived with Him for 3 years and observing His miracles as well as participating in many of them. The fourth gospel was written by a person who witnessed His resurrection and interviewed many eyewitnesses.

2. The four testimonies are by witnesses who are considered of the highest moral character and unlike Mohammed, they taught that lying is a sin.

So, if you are speculating that the doctrine of Jesus' divinity is an ancient myth, you are doing so against the evidence which is of the highest quality. Evidence which is stronger than the evidence which exists for the religion in which you believe.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[firmbeliever]

De Maria,

I would just like to say that I am not good at debating and do not wish to get into a debate where I might unknowingly slander the name of Jesus(alaihi salaam) or any other messenger or even the Almighty.
I do not like debating for the sake of debating just to prove one is right or wrong.
I rather like exchange of information on what one thinks is true or knows to be true.

That way we get to understand what each one believes.

The other thing is that you and I know that no matter what anyone says or implies you will be firm in your belief as I will be in mine.I will believe in my beliefs and you will believe in yours as long as we know it to be the truth.
So lets not turn one against the other for a statement I have made or a statement you have made.
Yes, I agree my post was speculation,but it is nearer to what I believe to be true which may not be as you see to be true.


Regarding Muhammad(pbuh),during his lifetime until the revelations started even those who became his enemies later never doubted his word,they always believed he would be just and truthful in his decisions when it came to settling disputes between people.
The one thing even then enemies never doubted was his(pbuh) word except his word regarding monotheism,which they claimed was false as they did not believe in this belief or wished to accept it.


I try my utmost not to rile up anyone or to make someone defensive of one's beliefs,but to increase my knowledge of what people believe to be true.
This new knowledge is there for my reference which does not mean that such information is going to make even a tiny ripple in my belief in the Almighty and His message to mankind.I am firm in my beliefs and wish to know more and understand more as time passes.To be true in faith to the Almighty not to a human being who may think my belief is wrong or to adjust my beliefs to fit what another thinks is right.

I do hope you don't take offense to what I say and continue to debate,just to prove you are right,because I know you believe you are right and I believe I am right.Lets leave it at that.

[lobrobster]

1. Three eyewitnesses wrote down the life and times of Jesus Christ after having lived with Him for 3 years and observing His miracles as well as participating in many of them. The fourth gospel was written by a person who witnessed His resurrection and interviewed many eyewitnesses.

Who were these eyewitnesses? Are you claiming that Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John were eye witnesses to the life and times of Jesus? The earliest gospel was written some 60 years after Jesus' death. The 4th, John, was written almost 100 years after His death!

[Credendovidis]

I was just reading through these two links ... Thank you in advance..:)

Earliest religious views were based on questions of vital interest people than had, for which at that time no answers did exist.
Gods of the eartquake, volcano, lightning, stars, moon or solar eclipses, flooding, harvest, furtility and reproduction, etc. etc.
Still today many multi-theism based beliefs exist. Hinduism is a prime example.
Mono-theism beliefs are mainly : Judaism , Christianity, and Islam.
So although today most religious believers follow mono-theistic religions, the origin of religion were multi-theism beliefs

[De Maria]

De Maria,

I would just like to say that I am not good at debating and do not wish to get into a debate where I might unknowingly slander the name of Jesus(alaihi salaam) or any other messenger or even the Almighty.

I understand. No problem.

I do not like debating for the sake of debating just to prove one is right or wrong.
I rather like exchange of information on what one thinks is true or knows to be true.

I prefer that myself. But remember, if you want to speculate aloud and say that:

I was just thinking of Jesus(alaihi salaam) when I saw an answer on the Christianity thread regarding similarities between Horus and Jesus(alaihi salaam).This got me thinking and I realised that the same thing must have happened to other messengers and Prophets(before Jews and Christians) that after the Messengers(pbu them all) left this world people mixed their true beliefs with something of their ancient beliefs and came up with a new belief.

If you want to make these type of judgements based on specious and circumstantial evidence,

And if you agree with anti-Christians on this website who are making the same claims.

firmbeliever agrees: I believe the trinity and demi god status of Jesus(alaihi salaam)maybe borrowed concepts from mythology since his ascension to Heaven!

Then I feel it my duty to inform you exactly how good the quality of the evidence for the life of Christ really is and to compare it to the quality of the evidence for that which you claim to believe.

Like how Jesus(alaihi salaam) is depicted as divine and part of the trinity,and this is similar to an ancient mythology which believed in demi gods.

Again, that judgement of yours is based on specious and circumstantial evidence. If you continue repeating that opinion of yours, you will have a debate whether you want it or not.

That way we get to understand what each one believes.

That particular judgement of yours is not part of your Islamic faith. I have studied Islam on my own and when I want to learn more about Islam, I might ask you on the Islamic board.

Now, if you continue repeating that unsupported and speculative claim, I will consider it an attempt to proselytize and I will respond to it with vigor.

The other thing is that you and I know that no matter what anyone says or implies you will be firm in your belief as I will be in mine.

True. But the reason I post is for people who are yet forming their belief.

I will believe in my beliefs and you will believe in yours as long as we know it to be the truth. So lets not turn one against the other for a statement I have made or a statement you have made. Yes, I agree my post was speculation,but it is nearer to what I believe to be true which may not be as you see to be true.

No problem. If you had made it clear you were speculating in the first place, I wouldn't have jumped all over it. But you said and I quote:

I was just thinking of Jesus(alaihi salaam) when I saw an answer on the Christianity thread regarding similarities between Horus and Jesus(alaihi salaam). I realised that the same thing must have happened...

Regarding Muhammad(pbuh),during his lifetime until the revelations started even those who became his enemies later never doubted his word,they always believed he would be just and truthful in his decisions when it came to settling disputes between people.

That is not what I have read even from Muslim documents. In fact, the Islamic belief in the appropriateness of lying comes, according to Muslims, from Mohammed himself:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them). (Sahih Muslim, Hadith number 6303-05; see also Sahih al-Bukhari 3.857)
USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

The one thing even then enemies never doubted was his(pbuh) word except his word regarding monotheism,which they claimed was false as they did not believe in this belief or wished to accept it.

I highly doubt that. Please read this. I know the information is from a source hostile to Islam, but I find their scholarship above reproach. I've never known them to rewrite or misuse any Islamic documents as I've been able to find them verbatim on Islamic sites.
The Bani Quraytha Jews - Traitors or Betrayed?

I try my utmost not to rile up anyone or to make someone defensive of one's beliefs,but to increase my knowledge of what people believe to be true.

I'm not "riled up"
Definitions of riled on the Web:

* annoyed: aroused to impatience or anger; "made an irritated gesture"; "feeling nettled from the constant teasing"; "peeved about being left out...
Wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

But I'm always ready to meet any challenge to those things which I believe.

this new knowledge is there for my reference which does not mean that such information is going to make even a tiny ripple in my belief in the Almighty and His message to mankind.I am firm in my beliefs and wish to know more and understand more as time passes.To be true in faith to the Almighty not to a human being who may think my belief is wrong or to adjust my beliefs to fit what another thinks is right.

That is fine.

I do hope you don't take offense to what I say

I don't.

and continue to debate,just to prove you are right,because I know you believe you are right and I believe I am right.Lets leave it at that.

Sure. Thanks for clarifying that you are only speculating.

... I agree my post was speculation...

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Who were these eyewitnesses?

Matthew, the Apostle
Mark, the disciple and secretary of Peter. Mark actually wrote Peter's sermons, but tradition identifies him as John Mark, the young man who ran away and left his coat behind in Mark 14:51-52. Therefore, he is also an eyewitness.
John, the Apostle.
And Luke the Doctor who identifies himself as a gentile, but who traveled with Paul and Barnabus and interviewed many eyewitnesses.

Are you claiming that Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John were eye witnesses to the life and times of Jesus?

Mark, Matthew and John. Luke was a later disciple who interviewed them and others.

The earliest gospel was written some 60 years after Jesus' death. The 4th, John, was written almost 100 years after His death!

I believe both Fr. Chuck and I have already posted information which disproves those estimates.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[firmbeliever]

That is not what I have read even from Muslim documents. In fact, the Islamic belief in the appropriateness of lying comes, according to Muslims, from Mohammed himself:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them). (Sahih Muslim, Hadith number 6303-05; see also Sahih al-Bukhari 3.857)
USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

De Maria,
That hadeeth is true,but it just shows that lying is restricted to just certain circumstances.

I know you will come up with something else to make it seem like I am wrong and you are right,but this is it for me,I am not going to continue to go back and forth posting because I know you already believe what you believe and I believe what I believe.

As I said I am not here to prove I am right or you are wrong.I am just here to provide information and it is not in me to debate.

Just linking you to some reading material.
Islam Question and Answer - The importance of being truthful

I would like to leave it at that without further discussion on who is right or wrong.

Thank you.

[ScottGem]

Getting back to the original theme before it was hijacked by pro christian propaganda, I do not believe that man was initially monotheistic. Greek, Roman and Norse mythology all are based on polytheism. Many ancient peoples believed in multiple gods that were responsible for various aspects of life.

But then I don't believe in organized religion, period. Religion, In my opinion, was created by man to explain things he couldn't explain. Why did the sun rise and set? Because a god dragged it across the sky!

[De Maria]

De Maria,
That hadeeth is true,but it just shows that lying is restricted to just certain circumstances.

If you'd like to discuss this with me on a separate thread sometime, I'd be delighted. The reason being that the supposed restrictions leave no gaps in between, in times of war and in times of peace? What's left? Nothing.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[WVHiflyer]

Polytheism most definitely came first. As a general rule, though, there are, as always, exceptions, peoples in forested areas tend to polytheism, and those in desert, monotheism. (One might call ancient Egyptians an exception, except their origins are most likely forest of farther south in Africa or when Nile delta was wetter - before the Sahara existed.) The monotheistic religions also tend to be more authoritarian.
And scholarship is far from decided on authorship of the Gospels. Most sources agree that, at best, they are from oral tradition and not actually written until 60-100 years after Jesus' life.