[paintman]

Very confused as to way the breaker does not trip if I have a hot neutral. We had a heated water bowl for the houses and the water beencame live. 110 to the neutral.So way did the breaker not trip.

Stan

[tkrussell]

Circuit breakers trip due to overload the rating of the breaker, or a short circuit with the hot wire coming in contact with a ground (green or bare wire, or the metal sheathing of a cable or conduit). Either of these events seem not to have occurred.

Your description of the situation is not clear, can you furnish more details? What do you mean by "110 to the neutral"?

[labman]

This is why we have 3 prong cords and GFCI. The neutral is not connected to the breaker. I am not sure what happened, but if the water dish was metal and connected to a proper ground, enough current should have flowed back the ground to trip the breaker. Since sometimes there are problems with a ground, or you can drop something with a plastic housing and no ground wire in water, GFCI is now required anywhere there is likely to be water.

Once the water bowl is repaired or replaced, I would see to it that it is on a GFCI circuit. I would also make sure all your outlets are properly grounded. The little tab on the 2-3 prong adapters is meant to be screwed to a grounded box. Some of the houses built maybe in the 50's and 60's may not be grounded at all. Many of the older ones may not be grounded well enough either. Newer stuff has a wire running directly from the frame of the outlet or switch back to the ground at the breaker box.

[paintman]

Thanks for the quick replies. Maybe I should start at the start of the problem.
The building is a barn. The service into the building is grounded with a ground rod and a ground plate.I first noticed the problem when I got a shock touching the barn fridge. This was several months ago. I tested the neutral to ground with my volt meter and got 110v to ground. After some probing I found a live wire pinched to a box to ground. Dead short? Yes. Using one of those plug in testers it told me that I had a hot neutral.After that situation I left the plug in tester in at all times just to monitor the barn. Just yesterday I noticed the horses were not drinking the water and after checking the tester it showed a hot neutral. Unpluged the heater and all is well. So why did it not trip the breaker. Just a side note we also have a problem with stray voltage,about 2 volts to ground.This has been like this for many years.
Thanks

Stan

[tkrussell]

OK Sounds as if you have a neutral and grounding issue causing this serious problem.I must caution you that both humans and livestock are in danger of injury or death if you continue using the barn without finding and correcting the problem, and the system should be shutdown until repaired .

I will explain as best I can , but I am not sure if I can help enough for you to find and correct the problem(s) yourself. You may need to hire a qualified electrician that is prepared with good troubleshooting skills and a very good undestanding of grounding. You have several issues to deal with, including proper grounding of the service, and the barn.

The hot neutral exists, I believe, due to a poor or improper connection at the main neutral bar of the barn service. The current flows out from the panel, through each circuit, through the loads on each circuit, and returns back to the panel on the neutral. The voltage you are picking up on the neutral or ground has already passed through the load on a circuit, a light, heater etc. This is the reason the circuit breaker(s) did not trip.

Measuring 110 volts between the neutral and ground does not mean the neutral is live, it may be the ground that is live. Any time voltage is detected between neutral & ground, both must be suspect, cannot assume one or the other is the problem.

By you getting shocked off the frigde tells me to look at the grounding, since the case of the fridge is ground and you were I assume only standing on ground, both should be at the same potential.

The incident of a hot wire shorted to ground, livening the ground and not tripping the breaker again tells me the ground is the problem. Also, perhaps now you can see that the voltage has been impessed onto the ground, causing the ground to be live, and not the neutral.

You have described enough symptoms that the entire system, including the feeder to the service, the service , and all branch circuits, and each switch, light and receptacle should be opened and checked for proper connections.

Before I continue with what to look for, I need more information. This will help me with what to look for, as the answer to each question will help eliminate some of the it could be this or that. By you answering the questions may cause you to look closer and find the problem. I do think there are multiple poor/improper connections, so do not assume once you find and correct one problem you are done.

Since you have already found one location the hot was connected to ground, and the hot ground still exists, there must be another location the hot is shorted to ground. How many more are there?

Is the feeder to the barn service 3 wire, 2 hots and a neutral? Or 4 wire, with a ground?
Where does the feeder come from, how is the neutral grounded at the feed end?
Is the barn wood frame or metal?

How/where is the ground rod and ground plate connected in the barn panel?

Is there a mechanical connection in the barn panel connecting the neutral bar to the ground bar? This is very important to note, exactly how the neutral and ground are connected in this panel. The connection can be as simple as a screw driven through the neutral bar into the panel sheetmetal, or a strap from the neut bar to the panel sheetmetal.

Is there a separate ground bar in the panel? Are all the whites only on the neutral bar and only greens/bares on the ground bar?

What is the wiring method thruout the barn? Romex, BX, conduit?

As you can see by all the questions, there is no one answer or quick fix I can offer. And shows you everything an electrician must check or question to find the cause of your problem.

If you do have an electrician come out, be sure he is knowledgeable of the NEC Article 547 Agricultural Buildings. Since you mention a ground plate, sounds as if the grounding was attempted to be done to comply with Art 547. There are specific codes to follow regarding grounding in a barn to eliminate or reduce stray voltages to protect livestock.

Poor or shorted connections in the building wiring and poor or improper connections in the barn grounding system combined seem to be the reason for your problem.

Any pictures you can furnish will be a big help to me in directing you to the problems.

[Borewyrm]

Just to add to TK's advice... I attended a weekend code seminar on grounding of agricultural buildings. To be honest I don't remember a damn thing. And even if I did I still wouldn't consider myself qualified to safely troubleshoot the system alone. My point being is that this ia a potentially VERY serious problem and warrents an expert to troublshoot and repair.

[paintman]

To all that helped with this problem... Thank you... TK you da man. Thanks for walking me through this. I called in a pro electrician and he very quickly located the problem.There was no ground bond from the neutral bar to ground. The imballance went away as well as the stray voltage.Did a dead short test and breaker tripped.
Best regards

Stan