[kindj]

I took my wife's car to Circuit City Sunday night to get a new stereo put in. It was going to take a little while, so to kill some time I walked over to a favorite store of mine that was about a mile or so away. By the time I get there, I remembered that they closed early on Sundays, so I began walking back by a different route, this one taking me through the neighborhood instead of the commercial area.

I'm walking along, looking at the houses, which aren't bad. It's not the country club by any means, but I would need to at least double my current salary to even begin looking to buy in that neighborhood.

Here and there I see other folks out walking, since it was a pleasant evening, and I exchanged greetings or waves with most all of them. Even petted a couple of particularly fine looking Labradors.

Next thing I know, there's a police cruiser pulling up next to me. The cop gets out and says, "Hey, I need to talk to you."

I look at him, thinking he might be one of a handful of friends I have on the force, but I've never seen him before. Young guy, maybe late twenties.

"Yessir?" says I.

"What are you doing?" he asks me.

"Walking."

"Do you live around here?"

"Nope, live about three or four miles north of here."

"So why are you here?"

Now I begin to feel the first twinges of irritation.

I reply, "Because this is where I choose to be at this time."

"Do you have business here?" he asks.

"Is this an exclusive, gated community that I need permission to be in?" I ask back.

"Well, no, but..."

"Then my business is my own. Have I broken a law?"

He says, "No, but a lady that was walking around here called us and said you made her nervous."

"Was she pulling her two year old son in a red plastic wagon? Was she wearing an OU sweatshirt?" I asked.

"Yeah, that's her."

"Interesting. She commented to me on the unusually mild weather we were having, and I played with her son for a second before walking on. If she was that nervous, perhaps she shouldn't have spoken to me."

He starts getting a little defensive now. "Well, sir, you aren't exactly dressed for an evening exercise--wearing jeans and all."

"If I remember correctly, sir, along with her OU sweatshirt, she was wearing jeans, as well. Did you question her? Or is there perhaps some unspoken dress code that one must adhere to in this particular neighborhood when walking after 5 pm?"

"Sir, may I have some identification please?"

Now I've gone straight from mildy irritated to downright pissed.

"I, sir, am King Leonidas, and these three hundred men are my personal bodyguard. I'm merely going out to stretch my legs a bit." Nothing like a reference to a good movie.

"Sir, if you do not voluntarily produce some identification, I will restrain you and locate it myself," the Gestapo wannabe tells me.

"That would be an extremely bad idea, and would not work out well for you, officer. If that's the course you wish to take, may I offer you the suggestion of calling for some assistance?" Probably not the best approach, but I'm getting madder by the second.

"I don't need to. I am a highly trained police officer."

"Apparently they don't teach Constitutional Law at the police academy anymore. Pity. In any event, I have been much, much more trained than you have, and haven't forgotten a damned thing. I say again, have a broken a law, or do you have reasonable suspicion to believe that I have?"

"What is your occupation sir?"

"I'm a teacher by day. By night and weekend, I take walks around neighborhoods and pet dogs and speak to people--you know, all that bloodthirsty . One more time--say what you suspect me of, charge me, or get out of my face. I did not survive and thrive in two official wars and innumerable brushfires to be harassed by some wannabe brownshirt who would like nothing less than to be on border guard in the former Soviet Union demanding people's papers."

He called his supervisor, who--in plain earshot--asked him why he was talking to me in the first place. The episode ended there.

So what the hell? Can a guy not even walk down the street anymore? Used to be, we worried (well, other people worried) about muggers and thugs and stuff. Now we got to worry about the cops too?

Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge fan of law, order, and justice. Unfortunately, today's police force has nothing to do with those things.

[Marriedguy]

Wow... you are really brave or really stupid. I'm not a fan of police harassment that is exactly what was going on. Like most police officers do not know the laws of our land and don't care to know. You must pick your battles and you want you battle to be in the court house not the street. He could have created some stupid charge that will be of course dismissed but you still went through the system, and in some cases still got ruffed up. I tell you this because I travel in NYC and police officers authority is parallel to the Gestapo. You could be detent for up 24 hours simply because you don't have a form of ID on you. You won't be booked you just sit in a holding cell until they ready to let you go.

I was taken to a police station in Brooklyn because I mouth off at a police after wrongfully gave me a ticket for my inspection sticker being out of state. He goes back to the police car and looks for the charge in his computer the charge does not exist as I told him it would instead of coming back and saying he made a mistake. He continues searching for about 30 minutes. Now, I'm upset. First is father's day and second its 30+ minutes I'm sitting there. So I open the trunk and try to get my NYS traffic Law book. Free at the DMV. Then I hear get back in your car…the two officers with hands on guns run toward and slam my trunk door close and tell me to get back in the car…I tell him no give me my ticket so that I may go home. I'm getting back in the car you are just going to have to arrest me. Then I screamed arrest me and arrest me! He looks at his partner with a confused look and then says well you are under arrested for disorderly conducted. So the traffic stop continues in the precinct. The officers try to book me but the desk sergeant is shaking his head no so then take me boots off and put me in the holding cell and then start continue the search for the inspection charge…after 30 -40 minutes still nothing. The one of the officers uses the temp inspection paper that I leave on the dash board. The temp inspection is what you from the DMV when you first registration the car it gives you 3-4 days to get the car inspected anyway I left it up. He gives me a ticket for not having registration which is a complete fabrication.

Now in court the charges were dropped. However, I still lost time and had to take time off for work to go to court. I actually paid for the disorderly conduct ticket because if I wanted to fight that charge the officers had to be present which me another personally day taken off it was worth it.

All the officers in my family told I could have been killed and it would have be there word* against the witnesses that came forward. Then could have said I was reach for something they believe to be a gun or another weapon.

[smearcase]

The govt says "report suspicious activity". Does that fit with the constitution? It fits the policy of dictators we defeated in WW II. If you bring a laptop into the country they can thoroughly inspect it, demand your passwords to access it, copy and keep the info for as long as they please. Anyone who argues against these actions is supporting terrorism. Politicians are more concerned about their electibility than the constitution. What's the answer? Go on like Sept 11, 2001 never happened? Terrorists changed this country more in one day than Congress has changed it in 200 years. US citizens have 2 choices, Adapt or Leave. It's not right, it's practical. The govt has kept us alive which is worth something, even if it is not acceptable to Patrick Henry.

[jillianleab]

Well, duh, you paid attention to her son, you must be a child molester!

Seriously though, it's a real shame this happened. Another case of a power-drunk guy in a uniform... At least his supervisor corrected him; maybe that means someone at the police force actually knows the constitution.

Feel free to blame the fear-mongering media too!

[ISneezeFunny]

I am a college student.

I work at a research facility at school, and due to classes, I often work late hours. By late, I mean, I go in around 9pm and come out around 3 - 4am. My boss knows this, my co-worker knows this, even the janitorial staff knows this.

One night, I come out at 2:30am... and a police officer (not campus police) comes up to talk to me. Our conversation was somewhat similar to yours, minus the king leonidas bit.

It was late, I was tired, and I just wanted to get home... eventually, the cop takes me to a holding cell until 6am until my roommate came to get me.

Apparently, I was trespassing... even though I worked there, had the keys to the building, and was SUPPOSED to be there. I was told to sue, but it just seemed like such a hassle.

[ScottGem]

The Constitution, like many laws, is more about protecting people who's rights have been abused then from preventing the abuse in the first place. While I understand your ire, I think BOTH of you over stepped the bounds here. What would it have hurt you to respond to his question of "why are you here?" with; 'I'm heading back over to Circuit City to pick up my car from their shop'. Doing so would have prevented the situation from escalating.

Do you think a police officer is not going to dig in his heels when challenged? Would you prefer that the police ignore reports of suspicious activity? One of the phrases that has arisen from 9/11 is "If you see something, say something!" Wouldn't you prefer alert, caring citizens, the apathetic ostriches?

Sorry, but your behaviour only served to increase the police officer's suspicions and cause him to dig in his heels. Whether you feel they were gestapo tactics or not being polite and honest would have been a much better policy.

[kindj]

Whether you feel they were gestapo tactics or not being polite and honest would have been a much better policy.

Probably. Incidentally, I did tell him what I was doing after his supervisor told him to back off. I even asked if he'd like to verify it by giving me a ride back to the shop. He didn't.

I guess I should've prefaced with the fact that incidents like this aren't at all unusual in my town. Typically, one will see far more police in the more affluent areas--where this is virtually no crime--than in the crime-infested areas.

We had to make 5 911 calls over the last two or three years. Out of those five, two were from an upper-middle class neighborhood. The police responded within 5 minutes both times. The other three were from a lower-class neighborhood. Two took over 20 minutes before someone showed up, and one didn't show up for over an hour, despite repeat calls from different people.

Their motto should be, "We're where the crime ain't."

[Marriedguy]

The fact that these officers are stepping out of bounds is the issue here. They are legally acting inappropriate and outside there scope of authority. In the cases above officers didn’t have reasonable suspicion and/or probable clause to even question these two guys.

Yes the situation could have been avoided by complying but please understand that the actual stop was illegal. Ignoring and justifying it is plain wrong.

Lets say they murdered someone understand that they with a decent lawyer would walk. Fruits of a poisioned tree.

Police officers are human so you will have good ones and bads. Sept. 11 does not justify there actions

[ScottGem]

In the cases above officers didn’t have reasonable suspicion and/or probable clause to even question these two guys.

Yes the situation could have been avoided by complying but please understand that the actual stop was illegal. Ignoring and justifying it is plain wrong.

I totally disagree. If this were a random stop then yes, but the officer in kindj's case was responding to a citizen's complaint. That made it reasonable and justifiable for him to follow up.

[Dark_crow]

I got to agree with Scott on all of this. He's right on about it.

[excon]

Hello Dennis:

I'm a guy who guards his civil rights too. Rambo could have laid down, but I'm glad he didn't. You too, Dennis.

excon

[ScottGem]

. Rambo could have laid down, but I'm glad he didn't. You too, Dennis.

excon

The thing is Rambo DID lay down in the beginning. It was only after the cops really started bullying him that he reacted.

[JimGunther]

Kindj, it is certainly an interesting question and a interesting situation. A similar thing happened to me a few years ago when I was at a playground with my kids-I was the only Dad there. I was wearing grubby clothes and hadn't shaved.

While pushing my son on the swing, a little girl about 7 or 8 came up to me and got in the swing next to my son. As I pushed him, she said "push me." Now I am not about to be seen pushing someone else's kids on a swing, so I said "You know, you really shouldn't ask things of strangers, there are alot of bad people out here."

I assumed the little girl's mother was in the park with her, but she wasn't. She jumped off the swing and ran out of the park. I learned later that her mother was in a house right next to the park and was watching the whole thing through a window!

You know what happened next. Two municipal police cruisers rolled up and one of the officers approached me and asked "excuse me sir, can I see some identification?"

Sound familiar? But the big difference between you and I is that I first became a police officer when I was 18 in the Air Force and have worn a badge of one type or another ever since. I have served as a store detective, loss prevention manager, D.C. police officer, NASA security officer, probation officer and bailiff. My natural tendency in such an incident is to assist the officers as much as I can so that they can quickly get back to their real business-deterring crime and getting bad guys off the street. I think it is sad that more people don't feel that way.

So I suppose I tend to be more sympathetic to officers than most people and also have a bachelors degree in government & politics with a heavy emphasis on civil rights and the Constitution and the sociology of race relations.

So let's get a few things straight right from the beginning because I can see that some of the people who have responded are incorrect in their notions about what police are allowed to do.

Anyone has the right to approach you in public and ask a question. It is no more wrong for a policeman to start talking to you than it is for someone to beg for money or a cigarette. They don't have to have probable cause to do so. It's not harassment if it is done for a legitimate purpose.

Among other things, the Fourth Amendment states that people have a right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, and no warrants shall issue but on probable cause. There have been a lot of cases that deal with what is or is not reasonable in such circumstances and I can guarantee you that it is reasonable for police to stop and talk to a person who has been (rightly or wrongly) pointed out as being suspicious.

Secondly, as one of the previous responders mentioned, lack of cooperation can lead to an increase in suspicion, and you may be further detained if the level of suspicion rises high enough, even though it does not rise to the level of probable cause. Courts have even ruled that a simple frisk, or "pat down" search may be permitted in some cases.

A lot of people have the wrongful idea that because they are not doing anything wrong, they don't have to cooperate. I recall several circumstances where innocent people were wearing clothes that matched those of a robber whose description was just flashed over the police radio. Because they were in the area and matched the description, they were detained and taken back to the scene for identification by the victim. Police are allowed to do this.

Its easy to make a big deal out of a situation like yours because many people simply don't like police, as evidenced by some of the comments made in this thread ("Most police officers don't know the law of the land and don't care to know"), are more than willing to be discourteous to them, as you were, and many police are not the friendliest people in the world to begin with. The profession attracts some people who get pleasure out of bossing other people around and years of dealing with some of the worst people in society can harden the attitude of an officer who might tend to treat everyone as though they are going to give him a ration of crap.

Being a sidewalk lawyer without having the training to back it up doesn't help either. In such a situation as you described, go along with the officer as long as he is courteous and reasonable in his questions and requests. When he first asked you a question, rather than getting so defensive you should have realized that this guy is likely doing it for some legitimate reason as he would have no other reason to waste his time in the first place. There is nothing wrong with you asking what that reason might be. Be courteous, as we all should be to anyone anyway and don't make wise comments-its simply wrong to treat people that way. That seems to be one of the major problems in our society today-courtesy to others is often non-existent, espically on the highway.

If the officer's conduct is less than professional, ask to speak to a supervisor or make a complaint at a later time. You don't have to be the most courteous person in the world, but you have to be reasonable and don't engage in conduct that could get you slapped with a disordely charge (I have seen it many times) or arouse the suspicion of the officer to the point that you may be further detained.

Despite some of the nasty comments others have made here, I have found that most police are people of conscience and good faith and are just trying to get the bad guys off the street. Unfortunately, they are often treated as though they are the bad guys and represent some sort of oppresive force that is trying to clamp down on individual freedom. It ain't so and its sad that so many people think so.

[WVHiflyer]

...Terrorists changed this country more in one day than Congress has changed it in 200 years. US citizens have 2 choices, Adapt or Leave. It's not right, it's practical. The govt has kept us alive which is worth something, even if it is not acceptable to Patrick Henry.

"Those who willingly trade liberty for security deserve neither." That's not the exact quote from Ben Franklin but it's close. It's also one of the ones I've used more than any other in the past decade.

The Constitution is all about liberties and to give them up for the illusion of safety is an insult to the authors of the Constitution and a pat on the back for any who don't like our liberties.

[JimGunther]

That's a great quote and variations of it have been used many times. But I am not sure that it can be said that cooperating with a police offcer under the circumstances described in the original question involves giving up any liberties.

[WVHiflyer]

JimG - It's giving up the liberty to walk freely down public street w/o being harassed by authorities. Blacks have long complained about being pulled over for DWB, then 'Arab looking,' now add Latino as popular targets. Whether the original poster is among those is irrelevant because it also happens to WASPs who might just be ambling along - you just don't hear about it.

It's also why I don't like the idea of a 'national ID card.' It wasn't all that long ago we slammed the Easter Bloc for requiring citizens always have 'their papers.'

[JimGunther]

You seem to be making the assumption that every time a police officer walks up to someone to talk that harassment is going on. As I said previously, are you giving up some liberty when someone stops you to ask for a cigarette? Is there really a difference? All sorts of situations occur in public where people come up and say something to another person for some legitimate reason. Yet, when police do the same thing, because of some problem that has been reported to them, its harassment. It doesn't make sense to me.

If you look around at topics in the news or on the Internet like the death penalty, traffic citations, student behavior in school, etc. you will find that there is a trend these days to "play the race card" to excuse all sorts of bad behavior. Just because people make those types of claims doesn't mean it really happens. We have a legal system that will come down hard on people who really do that kind of thing if it can be proven and I have seen it happen with big bucks involved.

It seems to me that the concept of the national ID card is just one of the many measures that people are grasping at to try to deal with the terrorist threat these days. I personally don't see much value in it.

[westnlas]

I hear you. A few years ago, I was stopped in the desert on a seldom used road by a rookie. He evidently wanted to see if I had an open container, being a construction type 4x4 pick up and a hot summer day. He asked me to step out and I did. I produced my license and registration. He asked to look in my truck. I agreed.

Next he asked about weapons. I asked what he meant. He said guns, knives or anything that can hurt me. I told him there were several things that could hurt him if he didn't handle them properly.

He goes inside my truck, on the floor leaning on a seat is a rigging axe. In the center console is a folding buck knife, in the glove box is a 6" survival knife and behind the seat is a machete.

Now he rests his hand on is pistol. I make up my mind that if he attempt to draw the thing, that I will break his knee, dislocate his shoulder and disarm him. No way am I going to let this nervous little guy handcuff me out here.

He asked me why I had all this stuff and I had to tell him I was a carpenter. Every tool I own is meant to cut or pound with. He asks about the machete. I said can't you cut with that?

He finally just handed me back my cards and let me go. But it was very close. The last time a man in uniform pointed a weapon and fired at me was a North Vietnamese soldier.
I tend to become very defensive when confronted with a weapon.

I hope that I would not think this way today, but every situation is different. Police seem to have an attitude that it's us against them. Even law abiding hard working citizens are "them".

I guess we both had a bit of luck on our side.

[excon]

You seem to be making the assumption that every time a police officer walks up to someone to talk that harassment is going on. As I said previously, are you giving up some liberty when someone stops you to ask for a cigarette? Is there really a difference?

Hello Jim:


Yup. BIG difference. You can IGNORE the bum.

excon

[JimGunther]

Sure, excon, but that's why I mentioned that people should be reasonable in their dealings with police or anyone else for that matter. I consider myself to be a reasonable person who wants to see a reduction in crime and would therefore be interested in responding to an officer's questions about some questionable situation that has come to his attention.

As I mentioned in other posts, I was a police officer in Washington D.C. It always amazed me that quite a few people that I encountered were openly hostile to cooperating with me from the moment I opened my mouth, even without knowing what the issue was!

Don't get me wrong, I have seen plenty of officers who, from the moment they open their mouth, have a way of addressing people or otherwise dealing with them that will cause a hostile reaction.

No one wants to deal with a person who thinks they are sent by God to rule the streets, but I think we all know there are some wearing the badge who act that way and the profession seems to attract them. Unfortunately, we haven't advanced far enough in psychology to weed them out completely.