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SkyGem · Dec 30, 2007, 11:24 AM

For those having questions and wishing to know what the Catholic position is on communication with the deceased, please read the following information:

EVP and Vatican

Capuchin · Dec 30, 2007, 11:36 AM

Do you have a question?

Fr_Chuck · Dec 30, 2007, 11:50 AM

Yes, the same as with all Christians, communication with the dead is strictly forbidden within any Christian denomination and over all religion since it is specificly listed as something that we should not do.

SkyGem · Dec 30, 2007, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Capuchin

Do you have a question?

Certainly, I do! If communication within "every" Christian denomination is forbidden (that is inaccurate at best), then why does the Vatican, with a sitting Pope, of all places, allow it (as shown in the link)? And why do Catholics communicate with "dead" saints and ask those proposed to become saints to intercede for them in a matter concerning a miracle, a requirement for the person's sainthood? They should thus refrain from doing so immediately if they want to live up to their teachings on this. Otherwise, it is just idle talk and people can continue to do so as they feel led.

Fr_Chuck · Dec 30, 2007, 12:50 PM

You obvously do not understand saints, asking them to intercede ( pray to Jesus for you) is for from sitting down and talking with them.

And yes, it is in the bible directly about talking to, and calling up the dead to talk to them. And it is very strictly warned against.
So yes, if any Christian church follows the bible, ( and if they don't they are not Christians of course) then communication with the dead is not allowed.

Sad you wish to attack a religion you obvoiusly know nothing about.

Tj3 · Dec 30, 2007, 01:38 PM

Just a couple of thoughts on this topic.

The passages in scripture refer to communication with those who are dead in the flesh (no differentiation given for saints or not that I can find).

I personally do not understand why we would even want to pray to a saint who is dead in the flesh when we can pray directly to the Father in the name of the Son. What could be more effective than coming, in person, and speaking one to one to the Almighty God, the creator of the universe? Most people find it hard to find time to pray, and if I have a choice between spending the time that I have by going to Almighty God or to someone else, the decision, for me at least, is simple.

labman · Dec 30, 2007, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

.... Sad you wish to attack a religion you obvoiusly know nothing about.

Do not many attacks come from those that know the least?

SkyGem · Dec 30, 2007, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

You obvously do not understand saints, asking them to intercede ( pray to Jesus for you) is for from sitting down and talking with them.

And yes, it is in the bible directly about talking to, and calling up the dead to talk to them. And it is very strictly warned against.
So yes, if any Christian church follows the bible, ( and if they don't they are not Christians of course) then communication with the dead is not allowed.

Sad you wish to attack a religion you obvoiusly know nothing about.

Chuck, and I don't use the word "Father" as that is reserved for the One and Only Father, God in the Holy Trinity, not for mere mortals. I understand more about Christianity than Catholics who don't even read the Bible by their own admission.

What? You say "You obvously do not understand saints, asking them to intercede ( pray to Jesus for you) is for from sitting down and talking with them." If asking them to intercede or pray to Jesus for you is "far" from sitting down and talking with them then what form of communication are you carrying on? Even if it is mental (and it should never be 'praying' as we should NEVER pray to mere saints), it is still a form of communication with those who are not around in physical bodies, i.e., those who have passed on, FYI.

Again, if it is in the Bible about directly talking to and calling up the dead to talk to them and it is warned against, then what are Catholics doing allowing the practice as the Webpage LINK so clearly shows? You failed to answer that question, Chuck, please don't shirk from answering it if you claim to know so much.

And your comment about attacking a religion leaves much to be desired. I am not attacking a "religion" but trying to understand the hypocrisy within the Catholic Church in saying one thing and doing another. Now, that's what is truly sad. If that isn't the height of hypocrisy I don't know how it could come any closer.

Fr_Chuck · Dec 30, 2007, 02:29 PM

Catholics in america get abortions, use birth control and speed in their cars. Baptists have sex before marriage, and Anglicans have gay relastionships Just because people have a religioius denomination they claim to go to, does not mean they follow proper religious teachings.

And you are not trying to understand, since you have some preconcieved ideas about saints, and the differnece in a one sided request and calling them forward to appear or calling them up to talk with them.

shygrneyzs · Dec 30, 2007, 02:35 PM

Another Catholic bashing, it sure gets old and meaningless. Praying, as asking for intercession, is praying. It is a form of communication, yes, but it is not like conjuring up a dead spirit and talking to them.

Tj3 · Dec 30, 2007, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by shygrneyzs

Another Catholic bashing, it sure gets old and meaningless. Praying, as asking for intercession, is praying. It is a form of communication, yes, but it is not like conjuring up a dead spirit and talking to them.

This could be ended simply without accusations of "Catholic bashing". Just point out the passages in scripture where scripture tells us to pray to saints who are dead in the flesh.

BBWfromPhilly · Dec 30, 2007, 04:05 PM

I am in NO WAY an expert about religion, and/or Catholic religion, but I do have some views on this subject. I was raised Catholic, but by the time I was in 3rd grade in my neighborhood Catholic school I had decided I didn't believe most of what they were telling me. At that time I stopped going to church and as luck would have it, my mother remarried and when we moved the new Catholic school didn't have room for me. So I left the school as well.

As that child, many things confused me, and I can't say I'm any more clear about it as an adult. One of those things was the "false God" thing and the "do not pray to objects" thing. Yet, as we all know, statues of saints and the Blessed Mother are prayed to all the time. I have to agree, that if I'm going to pray, I'm going to pray to God, not a statue.

Again as a teen, I was invited to participate in some teen activities at a non-Catholic church and was told by doing so it was against my religion--and a sin. Well, I went and had fun and the only thing I can think of that might have happened was that I was treated nicely and respectfully by those who I participated with. Why that would be a sin, I have no idea... and don't really want to know at this point.

Now, to the topic of speaking to the dead. Jesus is physically dead, although in some beliefs he either never existed, never existed but is still coming, or he has already "risen" from the dead. Saints are dead. You have to be dead to be named a saint I think. When people talk to Jesus and/or saints, they are not usually doing any kind of ritual to "call them to come"... usually the only thing happening is a one-sided conversation between the prayer and the being they feel can help them with their problem.

When humans try to converse with the dead, often in the past, but not so much now, there are rituals. I would think it's the "ritual" that becomes problematic. This can be considered taking steps to purposely "calling up" the dead. I have experienced many oddities that I have, after much thought, identified as paranormal experiences. I have never spoken to a ghost nor has one spoken to me. But I talk to my mother all the time; she's been deceased for 8 years. She doesn't answer me... at least I've never heard her. But I can't think that doing this is a sin. And even if it was, I'd do it anyway... I love and miss my mother.

RickJ · Dec 31, 2007, 08:12 AM

When the Vatican issues documents, they can be found on the Vatican website:
Vatican: the Holy See

I do not find an article on the Vatican website like the article says.

Wangdoodle · Jan 1, 2008, 09:30 AM

Catholics believe the saints are alive in Heaven. In a way, more alive than we are here on Earth. We ask our family and friends to pray for us who are living with us. We also ask those who have gone before us, and are in God's presence in Heaven, to pray for us too. After all those who are in Heaven, see God face to face. And this isn't an ether/or thing. We ask the Saints to pray for us, but we also pray straight to God too.

RickJ · Jan 1, 2008, 09:34 AM

Exactly.

Fr_Chuck · Jan 1, 2008, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by shygrneyzs

Another Catholic bashing, it sure gets old and meaningless. Praying, as asking for intercession, is praying. It is a form of communication, yes, but it is not like conjuring up a dead spirit and talking to them.

Yes it is completely sad when I will assume one Christian attacks another Christian because of they way they wish to Worship Jesus. The Catholic Church in combination with the Orthodox Church seem to get attacks I guess because they are the largest and oldest groups.

But as for as Saints, they are in the Teaching of most of the Protestant groups also but many forget, in all the early Lutheran churches, saints were fully used as with the Catholic Church today, the Methodist Church, the Anglican churches, Episcopal churches. All use saints, maybe not to the extent of the Catholic Church but named and used in most of the formal services. All of the Protestant Anglican and Episcopal have saint days, have services on those holy days and more.

Most of the ones that attack I will normally assume have just not taken the time to openly study the early churches history, or even worst they wish to take the faults of a church 500 years ago and hold it against them today.

wayne0418 · Jan 1, 2008, 11:04 AM

Roll away the stone and jesus stood before the tume and called to lazeruth to come forth and he did.

Tj3 · Jan 1, 2008, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Wangdoodle

Catholics believe the saints are alive in Heaven. In a way, more alive than we are here on Earth. We ask our family and friends to pray for us who are living with us. We also ask those who have gone before us, and are in God's presence in Heaven, to pray for us too. After all those who are in Heaven, see God face to face. And this isn't an ether/or thing. We ask the Saints to pray for us, but we also pray straight to God too.

The difficulty that I have with this is that we do not find that differentiation in scripture, and the references in scripture to communication with the dead are not speaking about whether a person is alive in Christ or not but whether they are dead in the flesh. The best argument for that point would be if the prayer was limited to the two persons who were taken to heaven without dying in the flesh.

Are you aware of any Biblical references which demonstrate communication with those who are dead in the flesh being endorsed by God? I ask because ultimately regardless of what anyone believes personally, that would be the defining source for me.

Fr_Chuck · Jan 1, 2008, 12:07 PM

What about on the mount when Moses and Elijah, came down and talked with Jesus.

Also there are many sourses that relate to the saints being alive in heaven, from the 12 sitting and judging the tribes of Isreal, or others.

And are we not all to pray for one another.? Do you not pass out a prayer list in church for each to pray, doyou call up friends to pray for a family member. Then why not ask one of the saints in heaven to also pray for you, to go to Christ on your behalf.

Tj3 · Jan 1, 2008, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

What about on the mount when Moses and Elijah, came down and talked with Jesus.

Jesus is God and was transfigured in His glory at that time.

Also there are many sourses that relate to the saints being alive in heaven, from the 12 sitting and judging the tribes of Isreal, or others.

But none that tell us to communicate with them. And the reference to communication with the dead does not relate to their state of salvation, but specifically refers to the state of their flesh. We have one case in scripture of someone speaking with a saint in heaven and that was Saul - and that did not end well.

And are we not all to pray for one another.? Do you not pass out a prayer list in church for each to pray, doyou call up friends to pray for a family member. Then why not ask one of the saints in heaven to also pray for you, to go to Christ on your behalf.

The ones to whom I pass out prayer requests are all alive in the flesh.