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Wondergirl · Dec 29, 2007, 08:39 PM

Yes, ScottGem. You are correct.

Wondergirl · Dec 29, 2007, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

That's an awful lot of filling in the blanks that may not even exist.

But you did say the above which got my juices up.

blondiechika05 · Dec 30, 2007, 06:23 PM

This is in response to Wondergirl's "filling in the blanks" as ScottGem puts it. Wondergirl, you say that Protestantism teaches that Genesis 3:15 is the first mention of the Savior. I am Lutheran, one branch of Protestantism, and have never been taught that. Like ScottGem, I see nothing about the Savior in that first. Of course there are hints of the Savior in the OT but I also don't find them in that verse. Maybe you can tell us specifically which branch of Protestantism you are referring to, as there are many.

Fr_Chuck · Dec 30, 2007, 06:35 PM

It actually is in symbolism between Adam and Christ, but you are correct it is not used in all branches of Christianity. And as you say Lutheran, there are seveal types of Lutherans from Mo Synd, WI Wynd, American Luterhan and a dozen more. Each one has very specific teachings.

And sadly I know in the Mo Synd, most of its members know little about a lot of its real teachings sadly. So much of Luthers teaching are never talked about much.

Wondergirl · Dec 30, 2007, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by blondiechika05

This is in response to Wondergirl's "filling in the blanks" as ScottGem puts it. Wondergirl, you say that Protestantism teaches that Genesis 3:15 is the first mention of the Savior. I am Lutheran, one branch of Protestantism, and have never been taught that. Like ScottGem, I see nothing about the Savior in that first. Of course there are hints of the Savior in the OT but I also don't find them in that verse. Maybe you can tell us specifically which branch of Protestantism you are referring to, as there are many.

I was born Lutheran, my father was a Lutheran minister, I attended a Lutheran college and took a number of doctrine courses, and have always been taught that Gen. 3:15 means exactly that, no matter which congregation I belonged to and who was the minister. Please check with your pastor.

Wondergirl · Dec 30, 2007, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

It actually is in symbolism between Adam and Christ, but you are correct it is not used in all branches of Christianity. And as you say Lutheran, there are seveal types of Lutherans from Mo Synd, WI Wynd, American Luterhan and a dozen more. Each one has very specific teachings.

And sadly I know in the Mo Synd, most of its members know little about alot of its real teachings sadly. So much of Luthers teaching are never talked about much.

If you call pastors who are in each synod, I'm betting you will find out they agree about Gen. 3:15.

Why on earth do you say Luther's teachings are never talked about much? His disagreement with the Catholic Church is the foundation of the Reformation and the basis of what you believe if you are Protestant.

wayne0418 · Dec 31, 2007, 08:24 AM

This is grate! The fact is every religion ties into adam and eve. Because it is fact. We have people that read the bible and love God. We each see the meseg that God wants us to see at the level of understanding at wich we are. I read a story from the bible to my dauter(6) and she sees what is at her level of understanding when I look at the same storry I may see something different. But it is beautiful to see God true the eyes of a child. Some say that God only brote hate and anger to this world fighting and killing over one name or the outher. There types of people in this world thouse that can hold strong to there faith and learn and become inriched, and thouse that say that there is no more to a subject matter and become violent when they here things that does not conform with the abc programing in there head. It is amazing that hear on a question and answer bord we all love to grow and become more.

N0help4u · Dec 31, 2007, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Gen. 3:15 is the first promise of the Savior, God making a way out for the mess Adam and Eve had caused.

"The Lord God said to the serpent..."I will put enmity between your seed [Satan] and her seed [Eve's descendant, Jesus]; he [Jesus] shall bruise your [Satan's] head, and you [Satan] shall bruise his [Jesus'] heel."

I agree with you wondergirl but I was never taught about Gen 3:15 in the churches when I was growing up. I realized that and how Christianity prevalent is to and in the Old Testament when I accepted Jesus in my 20's and read it for myself.
But as Wayne says some are content at where they are with their understanding. But too that can be good because sometimes it takes a child's eyes to see things we often over look.

Wondergirl · Dec 31, 2007, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

how Christianity is prevalent to and in the Old Testament

The Old Testament is full of stories of people failing and God forgiving. In effect, the NT Gospel is very much a part of the OT Law, and is always the better way to live--our being bound by Love and not by Rules.

Throughout the OT is the birthright thing, the oldest son inheriting the family fortune PLUS the promise that the hoped-for Savior (first promised in Gen. 3) will come through his lineage. Isaiah is especially full of prophecies of this Savior who will restore the Jewish nation. Unfortunately, many of the Jews both in the OT and in the New believed the Savior was going to be a political figure who would free the nation from the Romans or whoever their captors were and establish them in the land that God had promised to Abram in Gen. 12. The Jews are still waiting for their Savior; the Christians believe he has come, and not for political purposes.

Wondergirl · Dec 31, 2007, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by desidario

It doesn't get more complicated than that.

Yes, it does when one reads the entire Bible with logic and reason and common sense and openmindedness.

Organized religion does not equal Christianity. Christianity does not equal organized religion.

Again I ask, what did your reading of the Bible from cover to cover tell you about Christianity?

N0help4u · Dec 31, 2007, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by desidario

If one is to find any 'moral' in the Adam and Eve fable, it cannot be taken literally, for it is totally contrary to reason on a number of levels. Basically it follows the same pattern of dozens of Creation myths that preceeded it, all of which claim a god or goddess who creates man/mankind out of dirt, dust, mud, clay, spit, or blood....most closely the Egyptian myth of the god Khnum creating man out of clay on a potter's wheel...a myth that would have been very familiar to the Old Testament writers. The entire purpose of the Adam and Eve fable was to point up the 'punishments' awaiting those who disobeyed the commands of Yahweh. It doesn't get more complicated than that.

Are you saying myth to everything but the punishments or do you say punishment is a myth too?
Why do you claim mankind out of dirt is a myth when science has proven humans are made of the same DNA as dirt?

Wondergirl · Dec 31, 2007, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by desidario

If one is to find any 'moral' in the Adam and Eve fable, it cannot be taken literally

One does not have to take the Adam and Eve story literally in order to find a moral. Aesop's Fables offer real-life morals that you can take to the bank.

N0help4u · Dec 31, 2007, 03:10 PM

Have to spread the rep
Yeah either way true or symbolic the message is the same. Man messed up went against God...

Wondergirl · Dec 31, 2007, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by waterlilly

There is nothing symbolic it is literal because God intended adam and eve to have sex because he comanded them to be fruitful and multiply on the earth and the way to to that is by procreating.

I think you missed the point of the discussion. There is no contention about being fruitful and procreation.

N0help4u · Dec 31, 2007, 04:04 PM

Point being the fruit and the serpent literal or figurative...
Procreation being literal is a given

savedsinner7 · Dec 31, 2007, 04:44 PM

I think it could be both literal and symbolic. I believe Adam and Eve went against God's commands, and I think that the LORD uses symbolism in the Bible.

Wondergirl · Dec 31, 2007, 04:46 PM

The Bible is rife with symbolism -- e.g. "the hills clapped their hands" and "the four corners of the earth".

ordinaryguy · Dec 31, 2007, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

science has proven humans are made out of the same DNA as dirt?

I don't know much about Adam and Eve, but I do know that dirt isn't made of DNA.

N0help4u · Dec 31, 2007, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

I don't know much about Adam and Eve, but I do know that dirt isn't made out of DNA.

I always hear atheists say that bananas, monkeys, humans and dirt all share the same dna to try and prove that man evolved from amoebas to monkeys to humans or whatever it is they believe.
??

oneguyinohio · Dec 31, 2007, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

I don't know much about Adam and Eve, but I do know that dirt isn't made out of DNA.

Isn't dirt formed by the decay of living organisms? It's called decomposition or some would say composting... No, not all dirt forms that way, but mix it up a bit and its not hard to understand that dirt does have the potential to contain the DNA in cells... That logic doesn't really prove much. If you look for the building blocks of DNA in soil, want to wager as to what you will find?

On the other hand,

"There is nothing symbolic it is literal" seems opinionated. All of the various versions of religious texts seem to have been "given" to some man to share with the rest of the world. If someone today were to write such a book and tell the world it was all based on things that God told them, how many believers would there be?

Oh, lets not forget that the book should say that awful things will happen to those who don't believe, and that it will be acceptable to do awful things to others who don't believe the same way.