[TheSavage]

To help this family
Help-a-mother: keep a family together - Online Petition
It would be good of all you fine folks -- now its time for me to crawl back under my rock -- peace to all --theSavage

[TheSavage]

Bump -- 16 people looked and not one responded to keep it going?

[tomder55]

It did not take much digging to find that the author Christa Van Vuuren writes for a website called 'The Jesus Myth' under the pseudonym of Luci .

"We are raising funds for her so that she can afford representation for her son who faces deportation. People have already asked to donate funds to her for that purpose, so we have the widget you see to the right set up to collect funds for for her. All funds will be directly placed into Luci's PayPal account upon submission."luci


Also her son is now about 25 not 18 .

"Luci and her husband left South Africa with Erhard about 10 years ago - Erhard was 15, and he has not returned to South Africa since."


Congress.org

And he was not "required" to register for Selective Service. The Law applies to those who are already citizens.

Here is the law : In 1996, Congress enacted the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, making it a federal crime for non-citizens to vote in any federal election (or state election, unless authorized by state law). As a penalty, ineligible non-citizens who knowingly vote may be deported. Additionally, a non-citizen who falsely claims to be a United States citizen is in violation of this law.


FAIR: : Non-Citizen Voting in Federal Elections

I say hasta la vista baby ! There are more deserving immigrants I'd rather champion.

[NeedKarma]

bump -- 16 ppl looked and not one responded to keep it going?

Online petitions have never amounted to anything.

[ETWolverine]

bump -- 16 ppl looked and not one responded to keep it going?

Maybe that's because there's not much here that's worth keeping going.

There are a number of questions that come to mind in this case.

1) Why did the son not become a citizen at the same time as the parents? Why was there a separate hearing for the son? And why did that hearing not take place until he was an adult... 10-years after his arrival?

2) Why did a non-citizen sign up for selective service?

3) Ms. Van Vuuren wote: "Part of the reasoning behind the 26th amendment of the U.S. Constitution in 1970 was that citizens who could be drafted to fight in a die for the U.S. should be able to determine its direction by voting. Can't this logic be extrapolated to include forgiveness for unintentional transgressions that hurt no one?"

What the heck does that mean? What extrapolation of logic is she speaking of?

4) Why did Ms. Van Vuuren not disclose the fact that her son is now 25 years old? He's not some teenager unable to take care of himself? This isn't an "Elian Gonzales" being deported at the age of 6 years old. This is an adult who can make his own way in the world. Was she afraid that our knowing her son's age would affect our willingness to support her cause? If so she was probably right.

If Ms. Van Vuuren wants a miracle to happen on behalf of her son, perhaps she should pray for it. Oh... that's right, she's an anti-religion, atheist activist. She doesn't do prayer.

Sorry, I am NOT moved by this case.

Elliot

[RubyPitbull]

And he was not "required" to register for Selective Service. The Law applies to those who are already citizens..

You are right Tom. There is no requirement for non-citizens to register. Selective Service does state: "You want to protect yourself for future U.S. citizenship and other government benefits and programs by registering with Selective Service."
Selective Service System: Welcome
Registering and serving would have helped his case if he chose to apply for citizenship.

From what Ms. Van Vuuren states in her appeal: "Shortly thereafter, he ran across a group of campaigners registering students to vote in the upcoming elections. They promised him that since he was registered for Selective Service, he was eligible to vote. This was not true."

This tells me that he questioned these people about his right to vote when he was approached to register. So, he knew at some earlier point in time that he was told he couldn't vote. Sadly, he made a grave error in judgment by allowing a complete stranger to manipulate him. He placed his trust in someone with an agenda. This sad fact happens every day in one way or another in every country in the world. I knew someone who is a wonderful person and a very hard worker that was deported because she made an error while attempting to renew her work visa. She deserved to be able to stay in this country. But, she put her trust in the wrong people. I attempted to help her, but it was of no use. I am sorry Savage, you know I have nothing but respect for you, but I don't feel comfortable signing a petition for someone who is a complete stranger to me. I have no way of corroborating what she is saying is the absolute truth. For all we know, he could have done something in addition to this that is prompting the government to throw him out of the country. So IMO, this is a fight that her family must take on themselves, relying on any help she can get from her friends and local Representatives. I truly don't believe complete strangers signing a petition will do her any good. And, I don't want to find out at a later time that my name is showing up on a list of anti U.S. government reactionaries, or some other propaganda.

[speechlesstx]

Sorry Savage, I don't buy into online petitions coming out of nowhere for people I've never heard of any more than I'd want a free online ordination or to help those wacky Nigerians get their money out of Nigeria.

[luce]

It did not take much digging to find that the author Christa Van Vuuren writes for a website called 'The Jesus Myth' under the pseudonym of Luci .

"We are raising funds for her so that she can afford representation for her son who faces deportation. People have already asked to donate funds to her for that purpose, so we have the widget you see to the right set up to collect funds for for her. All funds will be directly placed into Luci’s PayPal account upon submission."luci


Also her son is now about 25 not 18 .

"Luci and her husband left South Africa with Erhard about 10 years ago - Erhard was 15, and he has not returned to South Africa since."


Congress.org

And he was not "required" to register for Selective Service. The Law applies to those who are already citizens.

Here is the law : In 1996, Congress enacted the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, making it a federal crime for non-citizens to vote in any federal election (or state election, unless authorized by state law). As a penalty, ineligible non-citizens who knowingly vote may be deported. Additionally, a non-citizen who falsely claims to be a United States citizen is in violation of this law.


FAIR: : Non-Citizen Voting in Federal Elections

I say hasta la vista baby ! There are more deserving immigrants I'd rather champion.

Selective Service facts:

Selective Service System: Fast Facts

U.S. non-citizens and dual nationals are required by law to register with the Selective Service System.* Most are also liable for induction into the U.S. Armed Forces if there is a draft. They would also be eligible for any deferments, postponements, and exemptions available to all other registrants.

My son was told by American citizens who registered him for the draft, (SS) that it was legal. Yet the person who lied and caused us all this anguish is innocent?

[luce]

You are right Tom. There is no requirement for non-citizens to register. Selective Service does state: "You want to protect yourself for future U.S. citizenship and other government benefits and programs by registering with Selective Service."
Selective Service System: Welcome
Registering and serving would have helped his case if he chose to apply for citizenship.

From what Ms. Van Vuuren states in her appeal: "Shortly thereafter, he ran across a group of campaigners registering students to vote in the upcoming elections. They promised him that since he was registered for Selective Service, he was eligible to vote. This was not true."

This tells me that he questioned these people about his right to vote when he was approached to register. So, he knew at some earlier point in time that he was told he couldn't vote. Sadly, he made a grave error in judgment by allowing a complete stranger to manipulate him. He placed his trust in someone with an agenda. This sad fact happens every day in one way or another in every country in the world. I knew someone who is a wonderful person and a very hard worker that was deported because she made an error while attempting to renew her work visa. She deserved to be able to stay in this country. But, she put her trust in the wrong people. I attempted to help her, but it was of no use. I am sorry Savage, you know I have nothing but respect for you, but I don't feel comfortable signing a petition for someone who is a complete stranger to me. I have no way of corroborating what she is saying is the absolute truth. For all we know, he could have done something in addition to this that is prompting the government to throw him out of the country. So IMO, this is a fight that her family must take on themselves, relying on any help she can get from her friends and local Representives. I truly don't believe complete strangers signing a petition will do her any good. And, I don't want to find out at a later time that my name is showing up on a list of anti U.S. government reactionaries, or some other propaganda.

My son has a clean record for the past tne years, so do my husband and I.

We work hard, we pay our taxes, we cause no disturbances anywhere, we are assimilated in the US culture.

My son cared so much that he believed he was doing a good deed.

Imagine yourself going to a country where you have to get to know and find out everything you dont even know you dont know - in other words: you can only make such accusations once you have walked a mile in our shoes.

My husband was under the WTC when it was already burning, the train had to pull back. He helped people who were hurt, hysterical, upset - he came home 9 om that night.

I think we deserve a little bit of credit.

[luce]

Maybe that's because there's not much here that's worth keeping going.

There are a number of questions that come to mind in this case.

1) Why did the son not become a citizen at the same time as the parents? Why was there a separate hearing for the son? And why did that hearing not take place until he was an adult... 10-years after his arrival?

2) Why did a non-citizen sign up for selective service?

3) Ms. Van Vuuren wote: "Part of the reasoning behind the 26th amendment of the U.S. Constitution in 1970 was that citizens who could be drafted to fight in a die for the U.S. should be able to determine its direction by voting. Can't this logic be extrapolated to include forgiveness for unintentional transgressions that hurt no one?"

What the heck does that mean? What extrapolation of logic is she speaking of?

4) Why did Ms. Van Vuuren not disclose the fact that her son is now 25 years old? He's not some teenager unable to take care of himself? This isn't an "Elian Gonzales" being deported at the age of 6 years old. This is an adult who can make his own way in the world. Was she afraid that our knowing her son's age would affect our willingness to support her cause? If so she was probably right.

If Ms. Van Vuuren wants a miracle to happen on behalf of her son, perhaps she should pray for it. Oh... that's right, she's an anti-religion, atheist activist. She doesn't do prayer.

Sorry, I am NOT moved by this case.

Elliot

1) It takes almost ten years to become a citizen. We arrived May5, 1997, and became
Citizens the end of last year. My son was an adult by then.

2) Non citizens has to sign up by law:
Selective Service System: Fast Facts

3) Don't expect me tyo teach you English, it is my second language and I understand that.

4) His age is not hidden or lied about. I never said he was 18 - where do you get that info?

I take it you are a Christian.

Lovely attitude you have there.

[Starlight_Dreamer]

I am wondering if you are merely here to try to gain publicity for yourself in hopes of milking money out of other people? I guess you have assimilated that much of the capitalist culture. Now assimilate this: A lot of people like myself are offended when people try to beg money for their personal issues. If you've got a quarter, use it to call somebody who cares. If you want to be together so much, go to him.

[RubyPitbull]

My son was told by American citizens who registered him for the draft, (SS) that it was legal. Yet the person who lied and caused us all this anguish is innocent?

Of course the person who lied isn't innocent. That person either purposefully lied or was completely ignorant. If you have their name and phone number, you should try to sue them. As parents, we have a responsibility to our children. Strangers don't. When I was a child, my parents taught me to never take a complete stranger at his word, both here in the U.S. and especially when we were in other countries. They made sure we protected ourselves.

You only provided part of the info on that website:
Selective Service facts:
Selective Service System: Fast Facts

"U.S. non-citizens and dual nationals are required by law to register with the Selective Service System.* Most are also liable for induction into the U.S. Armed Forces if there is a draft. They would also be eligible for any deferments, postponements, and exemptions available to all other registrants.

However, some aliens and dual nationals would be exempt from induction into the military if there is a draft, depending on their country of origin and other factors. Some of these exemptions are shown below:

An alien who has lived in the U.S. for less than one year is exempt from induction.
A dual national whose other country of nationality has an agreement with the U.S. which specifically provides for an exemption is exempt from induction.
[Some countries have agreements with the U.S. which exempt an alien national who is a citizen of both that country and the U.S. from military service in the U.S. Armed Forces.] An alien who requests and is exempt under an agreement or bilateral treaty can never become a U.S. citizen, and may have trouble reentering the U.S. if he leaves.
An alien who served at least a year in the military of a country with which the U.S. is involved in mutual defense activities will be exempt from military service if he is a national of a country that grants reciprocal privileges to citizens of the U.S.
During a draft, any claims for exemptions based on any of the above categories would be granted or denied by a man's Local Board.

Military examiners make the final decision about who will be accepted into the military."
*Note: Currently, aliens cannot volunteer for the U.S. military unless they have permanent resident alien status.

So, okay, you want to pick apart the info stated here, go ahead. Your son registered. How did he know he had to register? Someone supplied him with this info telling him it was part of the law. I know from what you have written that he had to have some knowledge that he could not vote if he was not a citizen. As I said earlier, it is unfortunate he relied on a complete stranger for voting information and didn't question it.

My son has a clean record for the past tne years, so do my husband and I.
We work hard, we pay our taxes, we cause no disturbances anywhere, we are assimilated in the US culture.

My son cared so much that he believed he was doing a good deed.

Imagine yourself going to a country where you have to get to know and find out everything you dont even know you dont know - in other words: you can only make such accusations once you have walked a mile in our shoes.

My husband was under the WTC when it was already burning, the train had to pull back. He helped people who were hurt, hysterical, upset - he came home 9 om that night.

I think we deserve a little bit of credit.

I don't see how my giving you a little bit of credit will help your son's situation. Luce, you may very well be telling the truth. But the fact is we don't know you. So, just as your son relied on a stranger for his information, you are trying to place us in the same position. There are enough scams out there on the internet in which people have been duped out of money. Do you think coming to this web site, and attempting to make people feel guilty or upbraiding them will help you here? I am sorry it won't. What you have done here actually has an adverse effect. Look at Starlight Dreamer's response to your posts. What you are doing is extremely offensive to most people. Someone who is going through a personal crisis usually doesn't waste their time trying to convince complete strangers they are telling the truth. No one who has posted on this thread is willing to give you money or sign your petition. I have no personal pull with anyone in the government and by signing your petition, I am giving you access to my personal information. Are you then going to send me a letter or call me at home, asking me for money to help defend your son? You are already asking for donations on another website, so I have to assume that will be part of your plan. Why would anyone with any common sense give a complete stranger that kind of access?

Your time is better spent working with your friends, neighbors, coworkers,. to get your government representatives to intervene for you. Work with the people who know you, and do what you have to do to protect your son.

[rivalarrival]

If Ms. Van Vuuren wants a miracle to happen on behalf of her son, perhaps she should pray for it. Oh... that's right, she's an anti-religion, atheist activist. She doesn't do prayer.

That's such a lovely attitude. Ignore human suffering if the sufferers don't share your own beliefs. Your ignorant, fundamentalist philosophy is absolutely vile. You are an embarrassment to society and your faith. While I disagree with religious belief, like most Atheists, I have a great respect for the "Love thy neighbor" philosophy espoused by moderate Christians.



Here's the deal:

When INS, elected officials, and other interested parties review the petition, they will look at how the signatures were collected. If they were collected under false pretenses, the petition will be thrown out, and Luce will be exposed as a fraud. If not, the petition is valid, and the people will have spoken.

We don't have to trust Luce's word on it. If you believe that deportation is an excessive punishment in the case outlined in the petition, sign it. If you believe deportation is appropriate, don't sign it.

I have no personal pull with anyone in the government and by signing your petition,

Quite the contrary, you have as much "pull" as every other citizen or resident. Popular opinion becomes public policy in the US.

I am giving you access to my personal information. Are you then going to send me a letter or call me at home, asking me for money to help defend your son? You are already asking for donations on another website, so I have to assume that will be part of your plan. Why would anyone with any common sense give a complete stranger that kind of access?

The petition asks for certain information, but all fields are optional. For instance, I provided my real name, city and state, but not my street address. I could have signed it anonymously if I wanted to. The only mandatory piece of information you give is your IP address, which is collected by every website you ever visit; it's hardly a privacy issue. It is collected to prevent flooding the system with false signatures.

The collection at TheJesusMyth was created by TheJesusMyth administration, not Luce, who is only a contributing author. TJM recently (October?) started a regular collection for various altruistic causes. We are collecting to help her alleviate legal fees. If you don't feel the need to donate, or find this "fishy", don't donate.

Someone who is going through a personal crisis usually doesn't waste their time trying to convince complete strangers they are telling the truth.

When the compassion of complete strangers is your primary avenue of defense, you do. Luce is fighting a huge, monolithic bureaucracy. She already has the deck stacked against her. She's looking for help in leveling the playing field, and in the US, there are only two ways to do that: throw money at it, or have a lot of people agree with you. The 641+ people who signed the petition are going to go a lot farther than the $152 she has coming to her from TJM.

[NeedKarma]

...you heartless jerk.

I'm an atheist and I'm appaled by the way you deal with others. I will avoid your posts and your website. Also, online petitions have never resulted in anything... ever. It's a waste of time.

[rivalarrival]

Online petitions alone might not have done much historically, but the blogosphere certainly has influence in society. When faced with this kind of tragedy, you do everything you can.

The line you quoted was, originally "If you believe deportation is appropriate, don't sign it, you heartless jerk" - I intended this to be humorous, not insulting. When I read it after posting, the humor didn't come across, so I cut it.

[RubyPitbull]

The petition asks for certain information, but all fields are optional. For instance, I provided my real name, city and state, but not my street address. I could have signed it anonymously if I wanted to. The only mandatory piece of information you give is your IP address, which is collected by every website you ever visit; it's hardly a privacy issue. It is collected to prevent flooding the system with false signatures.

The collection at TheJesusMyth was created by TheJesusMyth administration, not Luce, who is only a contributing author. TJM recently (October?) started a regular collection for various altruistic causes. We are collecting to help her alleviate legal fees. If you don't feel the need to donate, or find this "fishy", don't donate.

When the compassion of complete strangers is your primary avenue of defense, you do. Luce is fighting a huge, monolithic bureaucracy. She already has the deck stacked against her. She's looking for help in leveling the playing field, and in the US, there are only two ways to do that: throw money at it, or have a lot of people agree with you. The 641+ people who signed the petition are going to go a lot farther than the $152 she has coming to her from TJM.

Nothing you have said will change my mind. I will pass on the signing and donating. I wish Luci & her family the best of luck.

P.S. ETWolverine is not a fundamentalist, or even a Christian, as you both believe he is. His reaction was simply one born out of suspicion and thinking this was some sort of scam, as the rest of us did/do. Again, the best of luck to you all.

[shygrneyzs]

The line you quoted was, originally "If you believe deportation is appropriate, don't sign it, you heartless jerk" - I intended this to be humorous, not insulting. When I read it after posting, the humor didn't come across, so I cut it.

I highly doubt that you "cut" your "heartless jerk" comment because the humor did not come across. I dare say you cut it because you were called on it and your words could get you in some trouble.

I am not signing this petition for two reasons - I do not believe in it but if I did believe in it, I still would not just because of the posts you and luce have posted here.

[tomder55]

luce
If you really are luci then my advice to you would have funds sent to a legitimate defense fund to deal with the problem and not to a paypal account.

Sorry ;this story doesn't ring true. The last thing we need here is people fraudulently voting in elections. We already have a small army of lawyers going over the results of elections due to the silliness of Gore taking the 2000 elections into the court system.

The law seems very clear to me .

In 1996, Congress enacted the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, making it a federal crime for non-citizens to vote in any federal election (or state election, unless authorized by state law). As a penalty, ineligible non-citizens who knowingly vote may be deported. Additionally, a non-citizen who falsely claims to be a United States citizen is in violation of this law.

[ETWolverine]

1) It takes almost ten years to become a citizen. We arrived May5, 1997, and became
citizens the end of last year. My son was an adult by then.

2) Non citizens has to sign up by law:
Selective Service System: Fast Facts

3) Don't expect me tyo teach you English, it is my second language and I understand that.

4) His age is not hidden or lied about. I never said he was 18 - where do you get that info?

I take it you are a Christian.

Lovely attitude you have there.

Actually, no, I'm an Orthodox Jew. I'm also a son and grandson of legal immigrants and the first member of my family born in this country. I know just a little bit about how the immigration system works (that's ironic understatement, in case you are wondering).

It doesn't (or shouldn't) take 10 years to gain citizenship... my family did it in just a couple of years.

Furthermore, if you knew enough about the law to know that you son had to register for selective service... and even know where to find citations of the law on the internet... why didn't you or your son know that it is illegal for a citizen to vote in elections?

Finally, while you didn't say your son was underage, you certainly give the impression in your original post in the online petition that he is too young to fend for himself. You certainly didn't give his true age. Why not?

Sorry, but as I said, I have better causes to lend my name to than to help keep a perfectly healthy 26-year-old in this country when his other option is to return to South Africa, which is a perfectly free country. If the alternative was Iran, Syria, or some other nation where there is no freedom, and where your son's chances of survival and success in life were minimal, that would be a whole other story.

But nobody is sending him to Gulag, nobody is sending him into the heart of despotism, and nobody is sending him to a war-torn, poverty-stricken, disease-ridden country where his survival is in question. South Africa has a GDP that is in the top 10% for the entire world, GDP-per-capita that is in the top third for the world, and a GDP growth rate of 5% per annum... a healthy economy, in other words. South Africa is one of the most natural-resource-rich countries in the world, with gold, diamond, platinum, and other minerals, as well as a strong agricultural base in sugar cane, fuits vegetables, cotton, wheat, beef, poultry, daiy products, wool, etc. Your son isn't being sent to hell on Earth. He's being sent to a comfortable country.

I have better causes to lend my name to... like political refugees from Iran and Syria who are trying to escape tyranny, despotism, and probable death.

Elliot

[rivalarrival]

Tomder,

Yes, the law is very clear on the matter, but the law was never intended as a suicide pact. There are mitigating circumstances in this case - coercion on the part of the campaigner for one, and election officials who either didn't even bother to check his identification, or didn't recognize that a Green Card was not evidence of citizenship.

Luce is known as Lucecorner on Stumbleupon, Luci on TheJesusMyth, and Christa Van Vuuren to the real world. I'm sure she has other aliases online.

For the record: NOT ONE OF YOU HAS BEEN ASKED TO DONATE. Luci is a prolific author and friend of TheJesusMyth. We established the fund on our site to help our friend. I came here after I discovered that our efforts to help were being construed as some sort of scam. I came to set the record straight, to shine some light on the matter at hand.

You have been asked to register support for Luce's cause by signing a petition. You can investigate all you want, you can be as skeptical as you want, but simple: If you think that deportation is too extreme a punishment given the mitigating circumstances Luce described, sign the petition.

As I have said before: when accepting a petition, the authority will look at the circumstances in which it was collected. This petition can only help her cause if she is telling the truth. If she is lying, she faces potential civil and possibly criminal charges.

Sorry ;this story doesn't ring true. The last thing we need here is people fraudulently voting in elections. We already have a small army of lawyers going over the results of elections due to the silliness of Gore taking the 2000 elections into the court system.

You're missing the point: There are already major problems with the voter registration system, possibly a severe oversight, possibly a major conspiracy. This young man should have never even had the chance to register, let alone been actually able to do so. His identification should have been checked at registration, and at the polling place. Election officials at both places should have recognized from his credentials that he was not a citizen.

Instead of looking into these problems, the federal government is punishing a young man who discovered them. They are fixing the problem by sweeping it under the rug.

You say the last thing we need is people fraudulently voting in elections; I say the last thing we need is an election system that doesn't even bother to check identification before allowing a person to vote.