Check out some similar questions!

veritas · Dec 24, 2007, 01:15 PM

Of those who do NOT consider themselves Christians, especially those hostile to Christianity, what is it that you take issue with the most, the teachings of Jesus, or the modern-day followers(disciples) of Jesus? A quote from Mahatma Gandhi came to mind, "I like their Christ, I don't like their Christians."

Fr_Chuck · Dec 24, 2007, 02:24 PM

It is just like the author of the new movie "Golden Compass"
He is beyond a non christian, he is a hater of Christ and any gods. He stated in interviews that his hope is to kill god and he wants to do it though his writings and movies to draw people away from organised religion. There is a direct war for those of faith, against those that wish to take all of faith from us. It is basily because unless they can control the religion, they can not control the people.

Capuchin · Dec 24, 2007, 02:32 PM

Yes. I want to kill God. That's exactly what it's "just like". Thanks for clearing that one up Chuck.

Wondergirl · Dec 24, 2007, 02:38 PM

One of our former book-shelvers (i.e. pages) came in to the library last week to say hi. He is an atheist and briefly brought me up to date on his philosophy of religion.

He mentioned that what annoys him the most is that Christians have their heads in the clouds thinking about heaven when there's so much to fix in this life. I disagreed with him, that Christians don't obsess over heaven but are the ones volunteering at people and animal shelters, in nursing homes, at hospitals, in soup kitchens, etc. in an attempt to improve life for God's creatures. He disagreed. Since we were at the library, I didn't want to cause a scene if a shouting match or fist-fight broke out, so I told him we would discuss this at a future time.

His other comment was to mention all the blood that has been shed by Christians as in religious wars and in the Inquisition and as part of Manifest Destiny.

He's a faithful reader of Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris.

TheSavage · Dec 24, 2007, 02:43 PM

Of course religion is never used to to control the people Chuck. When you folks started declaring that this is a christian nation -that the bible was right and science was wrong- that kids must pray to your god in school,you brought the fight,not us -whats so hard to get about the fact that we do not fear your gods, we fear YOU- Savage

veritas · Dec 24, 2007, 03:23 PM

Based on the answers I've seen so far, it sounds like the main beef is with the Christian, not the teachings of Christ.

Wondergirl · Dec 24, 2007, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by veritas

Based on the answers I've seen so far, it sounds like the main beef is with the Christian, not the teachings of Christ.

Yes, that's what I've deduced. The non-Christians don't think the Christians really practice their religion on a day-to-day basis, don't show love to God and to their neighbors as Jesus commanded.

Choux · Dec 24, 2007, 04:04 PM

The teachings of Jesus are quite fine... they are similar to Buddhist teachings in a way. I base some of my ethics/morality on the teachings of Jesus.

The problem is that Christianity has become a political movement over the last 30 years, so Christianity opened itself up for criticism, just like good, decent American citizens criticize government and other social institutions.

Christians have been attacking social institutions for the last 30 years... education, science, and the Constitution... yet, they want to think they are above criticism. They are not, they are troublemakers.

They accuse their critics of what they are engaging in... they are *MAKING WAR* on our basic institutions... not the other way around.

There is no war on Christianity... we live in a secular state and all religions are guaranteed religious freedom. Christianity is not guaranteed SPECIAL PRIVILEGES as it had in the past. The hidden agenda of FundiEv Christianity is to have a theistic government replacing our Republic and Constitution.

Christianity has to be put back in its place as a religion so it gives up its dreams of a Theistic Fascist Empire.

The ChristoRepublican party is now a shell, and all kinds of interesting stuff is happening to to it. All bad.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

veritas · Dec 24, 2007, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yes, that's what I've deduced. The non-Christians don't think the Christians really practice their religion on a day-to-day basis, don't show love to God and to their neighbors as Jesus commanded.

So as long as you don't claim an religious convictions, you're free to act in whatever way you choose. You don't ever fail at being one way or another because you never claim any particular way. But, if you do claim a religious conviction, then you are castigated for failing in comporting to that way. As for me, I'd rather have the courage to choose and accept the castigation after I fail.

jillianleab · Dec 24, 2007, 04:05 PM

Speaking only for myself, I'm not a Christian-hater (though some people here seem to think I am), nor do I have any hostility toward Christianity (or any other religion). I think religion has done some wonderful things for a lot of people, but it's also caused a lot of harm. Does the harm outweigh the good? Probably not, which is why I don't wish to see an end to religion (only over the top atheists seem to feel that way).

What I DO have a problem with is individuals (and no, I don't mean anyone in particular here) who feel they must push their values and morals on the rest of the world. Their way is the "truth" the "light" the "whatever" and everyone else is flat out wong. If you aren't with them, you are against them. They are people who have no respect for others with different beliefs or no beliefs and make it clear they think they are superior. There have been a few pass though on this board before... they tend to leave.

So I guess in a way, the Gandhi quote is quite true; in general I have no problem with the teachings of Christ, but I DO have a problem with SOME of his past and present day followers.

It's important to note there is a difference between someone who is an atheist and someone who is anti-theism. Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and the like are anti-theist and too over the top for my taste. But then, I tend to shy away from anyone who is fundamentalist about most anything! :)

And Cap, Savage you both deserve a greenie, but since I can't hand them out here, please accept this golf clap. **golf clap** :)

veritas · Dec 24, 2007, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by jillianleab

Speaking only for myself, I'm not a Christian-hater (though some people here seem to think I am), nor do I have any hostility toward Christianity (or any other religion). I think religion has done some wonderful things for a lot of people, but it's also caused a lot of harm. Does the harm outweigh the good? Probably not, which is why I don't wish to see an end to religion (only over the top atheists seem to feel that way).

What I DO have a problem with is individuals (and no, I don't mean anyone in particular here) who feel they must push their values and morals on the rest of the world. Their way is the "truth" the "light" the "whatever" and everyone else is flat out wong. If you aren't with them, you are against them. They are people who have no respect for others with different beliefs or no beliefs and make it clear they think they are superior. There have been a few pass though on this board before... they tend to leave.

So I guess in a way, the Ghandi quote is quite true; in general I have no problem with the teachings of Christ, but I DO have a problem with SOME of his past and present day followers.

It's important to note there is a difference between someone who is an atheist and someone who is anti-theism. Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and the like are anti-theist and too over the top for my taste. But then, I tend to shy away from anyone who is fundamentalist about most anything! :)

With love and respect,

But since Jesus claimed to be God, he is either a liar, a fool, or really God. To claim some of his moral teachings for oneself is fine but what about the most outrageous claim of divinity!?

It seems that with any world view there will be those that follow, those that try and fail, and those that give up. Why are Christians judged so harshly when they fail to live up to what they claim? If we're all honest, don't we all often fail to live up to what we claim?

I think you're right. Many Christians and non-christians alike tend to "push" their idelogies, both claiming to be right. I would think we give each side their turn to debate in this marketplace of ideas. There's no sense in shutting down one side and not the other. And taking a position that you don't know or neutrality is also position and can be challeged. There's no winner or loser, only a chance to gain knowledge. In addition, if someone approaches me and says they have truth, I'm all ears. After all, is it not truth that we all seek?

Felice Navidad

Wondergirl · Dec 24, 2007, 04:36 PM

Even Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris, as over-the-top as they may be, still give me something to think about. As veritas said, "Is it not truth that we all seek?" Being open-minded, listening, asking good questions, spending time in reading and thinking will all help one approach Truth.

veritas · Dec 24, 2007, 04:40 PM

I bought the recent DVD debate between Philosopher of Science, John Lennox and Biologist, Richard Dawkins. I'm convinced that Jesus is God but I delight in opposing viewpoints - challenging them, and having mine challeged... with love and respect of course. I'm perplexed by the uncommitted mind. Those that find no interest in what I would think everyone would see as the ultimate issue questions (Why is there something rather than nothing?). Just because we can't agree, let's not stop talking about it, right?

Wondergirl · Dec 24, 2007, 04:47 PM

And I'm perplexed by the over-committed mind that isn't open to anything but its own truth. Since I grew up in that world, I'm now guessing there's a lot of fear--and that high fences must be built to keep out any ideas that are different.

excon · Dec 24, 2007, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by veritas

I'm perplexed by the uncommitted mind. Those that find no interest in what I would think everyone would see as the ultimate issue

Hello veritas:

I have no commitment to religion. Frankly, I'm perplexed by those that have. Indeed, the ultimate issue for ME is, I wonder how long it will take before people wake up. My guess is a few generations yet.

I'm not hostile to religion, just like I'm not hostile to Santa Clause or the tooth fairy. They're all nice stories that have their place in childhood. The problem with religion is, it doesn't stop at childhood.

excon

veritas · Dec 24, 2007, 05:00 PM

Fortunately, for the Christian we are encouraged to test our own beliefs as in a court of law. Any who do not have failed to understand the scriptures.

What is, "it's own truth?" If it's true, you'd better be committed to it. The concept of "your truth" and "my truth" are irrational contradictions in terms. Something that is true is objectively true whether any believes it or no one believes it.

veritas · Dec 24, 2007, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello veritas:

I have no commitment to religion. Frankly, I'm perplexed by those that have. Indeed, the ultimate issue for ME is, I wonder how long it will take before people wake up. My guess is a few generations yet.

I'm not hostile to religion, just like I'm not hostile to Santa Clause or the tooth fairy. They're all nice stories that have their place in childhood. The problem with religion is, it doesn't stop at childhood.

excon

Except Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist. Who would say that Jesus didn't exist?

labman · Dec 24, 2007, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Choux

.... The problem is that Christianity has become a political movement over the last 30 years, so Christianity opened itself up for criticism, just like good, decent American citizens criticize government and other social institutions. ....

Christianity was perfectly fine with the liberals in the 60's when Father Branigan was dumping blood on the draft board files and the priests in South America were preaching liberation theology. Even today they have no problem with Christian in name, Marxist organizations such as the National and World council of Churches.

Liberals are perfectly happy to have Christians support their special interests. It is when they oppose them, that suddenly Christians are meddling in politics.

excon · Dec 24, 2007, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by veritas

Except Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist. Who would say that Jesus didn't exist?

Hello again, veritas:

Ok, he existed. He was a nice Jewish carpenter. Do you not get my point? If not, then I won't trouble you further.

excon

TheSavage · Dec 24, 2007, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by veritas

Except Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist. Who would say that Jesus didn't exist?

No writing of his time mentioned him,or his birth -- do you not think that all male children being killed would have been mentioned in the roman records? The romans kept good records believe it or not.
Santa and the toothfairy are just as believable in my eyes.-- Savage