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KISS · Dec 10, 2007, 10:07 PM

Might be. If it's related to "that junction box" and these two circuits.

At the very minimum, you should use colored electrical tape to re-define the colors, at both ends, preferably.

KingsX · Dec 10, 2007, 10:32 PM

The way I described the way the switch is wired to fuse 3, does that make sense? I doesn't to me. Why would the switch white, which is normally neutral go to fuse 3 hot? And black which is normally hot be connected to the red on the armored cable?

Since the outlet in the basement was wired backwards, maybe the switch is?

I'm going to have to open up the switch and see what is happening in there. Also, I should move stuff around inside the junction to see what is going on in there as well. And then lastly, I should see what is happening in the garage.

The fact that when my brother owned this house, the garage outlet worked. And then it stopped somewhere when I moved in or after at some point. He didn't change anything and neither have I, so my assumption is its either the switch or the outlet.

But the way this is wired makes me somewhat concerned.

Edit: wait a second. If the garage outlet hot (which lets assume is the red wire in the armored cable) is pigtailed to the black at the switch, and the white which is the switch's continue to the fuse 3 hot (not sure if I'm using right terminology here), then all the switch is doing is cutting the hot. Whether the white or black goes to hot is irrelevant right? Because the red continues through the switch, and back to the fuse box. But then it's a shared neutral.

ceilingfanrepair · Dec 10, 2007, 11:18 PM

The switch isn't wired to neutral. It's wired to hot using white wire. That white wire needs to be labeled black, with tape or paint or permanent marker.

KISS · Dec 10, 2007, 11:35 PM

Check the garage outlet. I'm still worried that it's two hots. It was because of one of your statements.

Generally in "modern" wiring, a switch switches the hot conductor, BUT wire has white and black and white is neutral, so now what?

Well, black should go to the always hot side of the switch and the end of the switched hot will be white, but that white needs it's ends taped black to identify that it's a re-labeled hot.

labman · Dec 11, 2007, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by KingsX

The way I described the way the switch is wired to fuse 3, does that make sense? I doesn't to me. Why would the switch white, which is normally neutral go to fuse 3 hot? And black which is normally hot be connected to the red on the armored cable?

Since the outlet in the basement was wired backwards, maybe the switch is?

I'm going to have to open up the switch and see what is happening in there. Also, I should move stuff around inside the junction to see what is going on in there as well. And then lastly, I should see what is happening in the garage.

The fact that when my brother owned this house, the garage outlet worked. And then it stopped somewhere when I moved in or after at some point. He didn't change anything and neither have I, so my assumption is its either the switch or the outlet.

But the way this is wired makes me somewhat concerned.

Edit: wait a second. If the garage outlet hot (which lets assume is the red wire in the armored cable) is pigtailed to the black at the switch, and the white which is the switch's continue to the fuse 3 hot (not sure if I'm using right terminology here), then all the switch is doing is cutting the hot. Whether the white or black goes to hot is irrelevent right? Because the red continues through the switch, and back to the fuse box. But then its a shared neutral.

Your edit is correct. Yes it does make sense. It is quite common to run a pair of black and white wires to a switch from where you have a source of power and a load. Say a hot wire to a light fixture and the light. It is also common to connect the hot for 2 circuits to opposite legs of the power and run a black/red/white cable to serve 2 circuits.

It is workable, and may meet code, to start at the fuse, run the hot to the switch and back, and then connect that hot to the red wire. As mentioned, where the white is used as a hot, it should be marked black. You then have always hot black, switched hot red, and the neutral leaving the box in one cable. At some point, they will divide into 2 pairs of black/white. If from there, the red feeds the garage, it will only be hot when the switch is on and working. As long as the BX armor is properly attached to metal boxes along the way, at each point in the circuits, the black or red should be 120 to to both the white other than the switch loop white and the ground. They will be 240 to each other. The white should show continuity to the boxes and armor all the way. So, with the switch on, follow the circuits as Ceilingfanrepair suggested, to the non working outlet. You might even start there to determine whether it is the hot or neutral that is open.

KingsX · Dec 11, 2007, 07:31 AM

Okay, sounds good. I'll check everything. But its starting to make some sense now, which is good! I'll report back my findings...

One more question though, could I replace that relic switch with a light switch that is newer etc, OR disconect the switch entirely by running the red from the armored cable directly to fuse 3 hot? I assume so, but I just wanted to check. Thanks again.

labman · Dec 11, 2007, 09:36 AM

I think a new switch is about a buck. You will need to decide if you want to be able to control whatever the red wire goes to with the switch. I see not reason not to keep the switch.

KISS · Dec 11, 2007, 10:19 AM

The switch was probably there to give the previous owner "piece of mind". My uncle has a shop in a garage in the back of a farm. He turns the sub-panel breaker off when the garage isn't being used.