[Tj3]

Tj3:
I don't worship everyone whom I wish a happy Birthday. Mithra was born of a virgin, on December 25, had 12 followers, one for each house in the Zodiac , institued a Eucharist to be celebrated in his memory, died and was resurrected. If that is not the myth from which Paul extrated his Christ, then the moon is made of green cheese. No one knows when Jesus was born (unless you have found a record of his birth certificate)....could be anywhere (using YOUR scripture as a reference) from 6 b.c.e. to 4 c.e. HIS birthday is one more steal from pagan origins. Worship whom ever you will, but at least KNOW who it is you worship!

1) Jesus was not born on December 25th. The date was chosen as a date to celebrate His birth. The date of His birth is not important to Christians.

2) Historical evidence for Mithraism goes back to approximately 90AD, therefore if one was a copy, it would have to be Mithraism copying from Christianity

3) Mithra was not born of a virgin, the myth is that he was born from a rock.

4) Jesus had thousands of followers (3,000 came to follow Jesus in one day - Acts 2). He had 12 apostles.

5) Mithra did not sacrifice himself, he sacrificed a bull. Without a death, there could be no resurrection.

Ritual meals were held for many reasons and many religions in the middle east at that time, so one more doesn't prove anything. In fact none of these points means anything after you realize that the myth of Mithra is too late to have been a source for the Biblical account of Jesus.

[Aton3]

Tj3:

The date of Jesus birth should be of PROFOUND importance to those Christians who claim the Bible is the inerrent, inspired word of God... for the chronlogical 'evidence' found in the Bible is totally contradictroy, making it impossible to determine whether Jesus was born in 6 b.c.e. or 4 c.e.

Mithra (Mitra) and the religon of Mitraism is attested to in both Iranian and Hindu Scripture... including the Rig Veda... making belief in Mithra preceeeding Christianity by more than a Century. (See Canney's "Encyclopedia of Religons"... and refer to the historical writings of S. REINACH. Mithraism has spread to the entire Oriental world during the reign of Alexander the Great... and was introduced into the West in the first half of the First Century c.e "The immense popularity of his worship is attested by the monuments illustrative of it which have been found scattered in profusion throughout the Roman Empire.

The fact that Mithrism predated Christianity to about 1400 b.c.e. and that Paul was immersed in the Hellenistic millieu where dying and resurrected 'saviours' were a dime-a-dozen, certainly shoots your 90AD theory right out of the historical pond, and shows exactly WHERE Paul came up with the idea for his God/Messiah.

[Tj3]

Tj3:

The date of Jesus birth should be of PROFOUND importance to those Christians who claim the Bible is the inerrent, inspired word of God... for the chronlogical 'evidence' found in the Bible is totally contradictroy, making it impossible to determine whether Jesus was born in 6 b.c.e. or 4 c.e.

You were trying to suggest a comparison for the exact day with the myth of Mithra, and the exact date is not important. What is important is that Jesus was born and died for our sins on the cross.

Mithra (Mitra) and the religon of Mitraism is attested to in both Iranian and Hindu Scripture... including the Rig Veda... making belief in Mithra preceeeding Christianity by more than a Century. (See Canney's "Encyclopedia of Religons"... and refer to the historical writings of S. REINACH. Mithraism has spread to the entire Oriental world during the reign of Alexander the Great... and was introduced into the West in the first half of the First Century c.e "The immense popularity of his worship is attested by the monuments illustrative of it which have been found scattered in profusion throughout the Roman Empire.

The fact that Mithrism predated Christianity to about 1400 b.c.e. and that Paul was immersed in the Hellenistic millieu where dying and resurrected 'saviours' were a dime-a-dozen, certainly shoots your 90AD theory right out of the historical pond, and shows exactly WHERE Paul came up with the idea for his God/Messiah.

I could refute your dates, but it does not matter and it is not worth the effort, because not only does history disagree with your claims, but the parallels that you claimed do not exist.

[fallen2grace]

Tj3:

The date of Jesus birth should be of PROFOUND importance to those Christians who claim the Bible is the inerrent, inspired word of God... for the chronlogical 'evidence' found in the Bible is totally contradictroy, making it impossible to determine whether Jesus was born in 6 b.c.e. or 4 c.e.

Mithra (Mitra) and the religon of Mitraism is attested to in both Iranian and Hindu Scripture...including the Rig Veda....making belief in Mithra preceeeding Christianity by more than a Century. (See Canney's "Encyclopedia of Religons"...and refer to the historical writings of S. REINACH. Mithraism has spread to the entire Oriental world during the reign of Alexander the Great...and was introduced into the West in the first half of the First Century c.e "The immense popularity of his worship is attested by the monuments illustrative of it which have been found scattered in profusion thoughout the Roman Empire.

The fact that Mithrism predated Christianity to about 1400 b.c.e., and that Paul was immersed in the Hellenistic millieu where dying and resurrected 'saviours' were a dime-a-dozen, certainly shoots your 90AD theory right out of the historical pond, and shows exactly WHERE Paul came up with the idea for his God/Messiah.

It doesn't matter what day Jesus was born. It's that he WAS born, that is what is important.

[mstkay76]

Just my two cents for whatever it's worth...

While Christmas and the celebration thereof has, in past years, represented the birth of Jesus, our Savior, in today's world it's just a holiday wherein you give gifts to friends, family, etc. thanks much to commercialization.

The Bible is very specific about the 'Holy' days we are to celebrate and "Christmas" is nowhere to be found among that list.

With those thoughts in mind, I don't think saying, "Happy Holidays" or being told "Happy Holidays" is necessarily a bad thing because as Christians (or other) we are not entitled to anything but equality, the pursuit of happiness and religious freedom just like those who may not celebrate what we believe in but are US citizens.

When a Christian (or other) gets so upset about the PCness we are doing the very same as the rest of the groups who carry on and by default we are placing ourselves in the very same 'category' if you will.

Granted, the US was originally puritanical and Christian. Each person who immigrated here back then did so for opportunity and to escape religious persecution. That is why the Constitution allows for religious freedom. Which means, all those immigrating here or those who are already here but choosing other forms of religion are afforded that very same religious freedom without persecution.

The US being the melting pot of diversity that it is and that we have touted for years upon years, we can't much expect that "Christianity and Christians" would remain the majority.

While saying "Merry Christmas" is not persecuting, in my humble opinion, some may feel it is. Thus the PCness of "Happy Holidays" which covers every possibility under the sun, moon and stars.

As a God fearing human, I do not feel the need to say "Merry Christmas" in order to know what I believe, celebrate what I believe and express my joy and wishes for joy to others during this season.

With that said, I wish all Christians a Merry Christmas and to the rest of you, whatever religion you may be, I wish you Happy Holidays.

[fallen2grace]

Aton3 disagrees: If you have no records of his "birth", how can you ever expect anyone to even believe that he ever existed??

It's a little thing I like to call Faith and Believing.

[NowWhat]

Hello.

(For those who celebrate... )I hope everyone had a very MERRY CHRISTMAS! :)

[Tj3]

With respect to records of Jesus birth, that is a non-issue. It would be interesting to ask Aton to produce the records documenting the birth of most historical figures of that timeframe. They also do not exist. Would Aton therefore deny that they were born?

Why do some people try to apply one standard for the evidence of the facts surrounding Jesus, and a dramatically lesser standard for believing that other parts of history are absolute fact?

[Synnen]

TJ3--Point to me some evidence NOT in the Bible. The Bible is enough for Christians, but NOT for the rest of us. Also--many of us who have pagan religions had much of our history obliterated with the burning of witches--by Christians!--throughout the centuries.

To everyone else--I hope you had a truly wonderful holiday! I hope the Jews had a terrific Hannukah, and the Christians a wonderful Christmas! To my fellow Pagans--I hope your Solstice/Yule/Saturnalia was as wonderful and profound as mine was! To those who celebrate Ramadan and Kwanzaa--I'm not sure on the dates for those this year, so I hope it was/will be all that you hope!

To everyone, I hope your New Year is filled with health, prosperity, truth, love, and peace!

[worthbeads]

What I'm tired of is people of other religions complaining about Christian related stuff, including Christmas. Pardon my French, but unless you have the balls to take over the U.S. you don't complain about Christian activities in a dominantly christiam country! Just be thankful we even let you into our country!

And don't be replying and telling me what a racist pig I am, because I know my views are controversial, they always are. Again, that's what you get for coming into a controversial country!

[Synnen]

Why SHOULD I leave? Why should I HAVE to leave?

I was born here too!

THAT is why people get p!ssy at Christians, you know. That whole attitude of "there are more of us, so do it OUR way" is pretty intolerant and hypocritical in a country where there is freedom of religion.

Funny thing--I went with my husband's Christian family to church on Christmas eve. The pastor started the sermon out with a political story about how some Christians overcame the whole "prayer in school" thing. It made me so mad that I forgot the reason we were all together was supposed to be "love", and it made me NOT listen to the rest of her sermon. Who was she preaching to--the choir? Any non-Christian in her audience (and I knew of a couple others who agreed with me after the service) was so completely turned off by the pastor's timing and choice of sermon on a day (of ALL days!) when love and tolerance should have been the message. Is THAT how you all hope to convert people, and win them to your cause?

I frankly don't CARE that you outnumber me. If you can be vocal about YOUR religion, I can be vocal about MINE, right? And so can thousands of others--and we ARE!

We aren't asking you to give up your religion, or convert to any of our religions. We ARE asking that you be as tolerant to OUR religions as we've been to YOURS for the last 200 years.

But--I guess that's too much to ask from a religion who touts that you should turn the other cheek and that you should treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated, hmm?

[NeedKarma]

Many of us from outside the U.S. read this thread and feels lucky we do not live there. So-called 'christians' there have bastardized the teachings of Jesus into something unrecognizable.

[RubyPitbull]

What I'm tired of is people of other religions complaining about Christian related stuff, including Christmas. Pardon my French, but unless you have the balls to take over the U.S. you don't complain about Christian activities in a dominantly christiam country! Just be thankful we even let you into our country!

And don't be replying and telling me what a racist pig I am, because I know my views are controversial, they always are. Again, that's what you get for coming into a controversial country!

Worthbeads, most of us who engage in these threads are controversial at one time or another on this web site. Your post doesn't have anything to do with your apparent desire to proudly display your controversial nature. Your attempt to dictate how people should respond to you is rather Hitleresque in nature. Why shouldn't someone reply and tell you that you are a "racist pig" when it is obvious that is just what you are?

"Just be thankful we even let you into our country." Are you serious? Are you a Native American who converted to Christianity? Or, were you instrumental in the formation and organization of the country? Did you come over on the Mayflower? You didn't "let" me into this country. I was born here just as you were.

The people who founded this country were of a different Christianity than most of the more vocal Christian respondents on this thread. The majority of the founding fathers of the U.S. were Episcopalian/Anglican, followed by Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Quaker, Dutch Reformed/German Reformed, Lutheran, Catholic, Huguenot, Unitarian, Methodist, Calvinist. Puritans and Deists were among them.

Prior to the formation of the United States, not only were the original inhabitants NOT Christian (Native Americans), but the people who chose to leave their homelands behind and begin life in a harsh and unknown environment chose to do so as a direct result of being persecuted in their own countries for their religious beliefs.

Worthbeads (and others who have stated a desire that non-Christians leave the U.S.), why did your ancestors come to this country and not stay in their homeland? My ancestors were persecuted and murdered for their beliefs too. They chose this country due to the invitation that was made to them to live in a land where they would find freedom from religious persecution. So, all the mewling on this thread and others throughout this web site about how those of us who are not Christian should be thankful to Christians for allowing us to live in the U.S. is purely hate inspired garbage.

Your tired of.. What I am tired of are people who are intolerant of anyone who does not pray as they do and find that it is more appropriate to spread words of hate rather than love. I am tired of people who are so steeped in their hatred of others that they assume simply because someone wishes them a Happy Holiday that the person offering up a simple pleasantry this time of year, is purposefully trying to undermine Christmas and in so doing, assuming that person is trying to undermine their entire belief system. It is a very paranoid delusion. You don't like it when people in stores don't wish you a Merry Christmas? As DeMaria said much earlier on, let them know you disapprove by not shopping in their stores. But to verbally abuse people here, tell them they should leave this country because they don't want to say "Merry Christmas" because they do not celebrate it, is more than intolerant. It smacks of racism. Your sense of entitlement, along with Soldout's here on this thread, are figments of your fractured imaginations and meanderings.

The original post by Fallen2Grace asked for people's opinions. People gave their opinions. Why can't some individuals on this web site graciously accept that there will be differences of opinions and leave it at that instead of getting into a verbal dispute or choose to spew hateful garbage such as telling people to leave this country?

By the way, some people don't even think about the many different religious affiliations this time of year. They choose "Happy Holidays" to include not only Christmas (or Hannukah, Solstice, Kwanzaa, Festivus,. ) but the New Year as well. Take the freaking chips off your shoulders already and recognize that people are merely offering up a different pleasantry this time of year instead of the usual "Have a nice day."

[JoeCanada76]

Many of us from outside the U.S. read this thread and feels lucky we do not live there. So-called 'christians' there have bastardized the teachings of Jesus into something unrecognizable.

I agree here.

[jillianleab]

Ruby, you kick butt! :D

[worthbeads]

Worthbeads, most of us who engage in these threads are controversial at one time or another on this web site. Your post doesn't have anything to do with your apparent desire to proudly display your controversial nature. Your attempt to dictate how people should respond to you is rather Hitleresque in nature. Why shouldn't someone reply and tell you that you are a "racist pig" when it is obvious that is just what you are?

"Just be thankful we even let you into our country." Are you serious? Are you a Native American who converted to Christianity? Or, were you instrumental in the formation and organization of the country? Did you come over on the Mayflower? You didn't "let" me into this country. I was born here just as you were.

The people who founded this country were of a different Christianity than most of the more vocal Christian respondents on this thread. The majority of the founding fathers of the U.S. were Episcopalian/Anglican, followed by Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Quaker, Dutch Reformed/German Reformed, Lutheran, Catholic, Huguenot, Unitarian, Methodist, Calvinist. Puritans and Deists were among them.

Prior to the formation of the United States, not only were the original inhabitants NOT Christian (Native Americans), but the people who chose to leave their homelands behind and begin life in a harsh and unknown environment chose to do so as a direct result of being persecuted in their own countries for their beliefs.

Worthbeads (and others who have stated a desire that non-Christians leave the U.S.), why did your ancestors come to this country and not stay in their homeland? My ancestors were persecuted and murdered for their beliefs too. They chose this country due to the invitation that was made to them to live in a land where they would find freedom from religious persecution. So, all the mewling on this thread and others throughout this web site about how those of us who are not Christian should be thankful to Christians for allowing us to live in the U.S. is purely hate inspired garbage.

Your tired of...? What I am tired of are people who are intolerant of anyone who does not pray as they do and find that it is more appropriate to spread words of hate rather than love. I am tired of people who are so steeped in their hatred of others that they assume simply because someone wishes them a Happy Holiday that the person offering up a simple pleasantry this time of year, is purposefully trying to undermine Christmas and in so doing, assuming that person is trying to undermine their entire belief system. It is a very paranoid delusion. You don't like it when people in stores don't wish you a Merry Christmas? As DeMaria said much earlier on, let them know you disapprove by not shopping in their stores. But to verbally abuse people here, tell them they should leave this country because they don't want to say "Merry Christmas" because they do not celebrate it, is more than intolerant. It smacks of racism. Your sense of entitlement, along with Soldout's here on this thread, are figments of your fractured imaginations and meanderings.

The original post by Fallen2Grace asked for people's opinions. People gave their opinions. Why can't some individuals on this web site graciously accept that there will be differences of opinions and leave it at that instead of getting into a verbal dispute or choose to spew hateful garbage such as telling people to leave this country?

By the way, some people don't even think about the many different religious affiliations this time of year. They choose "Happy Holidays" to include not only Christmas (or Hannukah, Solstice, Kwanzaa, Festivus,...) but the New Year as well. Take the freaking chips off your shoulders already and recognize that people are merely offering up a different pleasantry this time of year instead of the usual "Have a nice day."

Do you know what I am really tired of? People like you, RudyPitbull. People like you take what I say and twist it a thousand times, creating an idea that is not mine but claiming it is. Did I say I hated people of other religions? Did I say I wanted them out of this country? No. Then why do you claim that I do? If anyone here is a judgmental pig, it is you. Rather than warping people's opinions, respect them instead.

And by the way, the reason I say "Nobody call me a racist pig" is because I Don't want them two. Maybe next time if you actually use your head you might follow directions.

[worthbeads]

The original post by Fallen2Grace asked for people's opinions. People gave their opinions. Why can't some individuals on this web site graciously accept that there will be differences of opinions and leave it at that instead of getting into a verbal dispute or choose to spew hateful garbage such as telling people to leave this country?

All right, first let's start with you. Respect my opinion!

[jillianleab]

Many of us from outside the U.S. read this thread and feels lucky we do not live there. So-called 'christians' there have bastardized the teachings of Jesus into something unrecognizable.

I can see that. I think it stems from the sense of "greatness" and "superiority" many Americans feel they have simply because they are American. People also have a tendency to act like complete a-holes when in large groups, or look that way when referred to en masse. To be fair, most of the people I encounter on a daily basis (99.9%) don't project their radicalism quite like it's done on this site. I promise, not all of us 'mericans are bad! :D

Back to the topic...

[RubyPitbull]

What I'm tired of is people of other religions complaining about Christian related stuff, including Christmas. Pardon my French, but unless you have the balls to take over the U.S. you don't complain about Christian activities in a dominantly christiam country! Just be thankful we even let you into our country!

And don't be replying and telling me what a racist pig I am, because I know my views are controversial, they always are. Again, that's what you get for coming into a controversial country!

I did not twist your words. They are right there in black and white. Of course you are entitled to your opinion worthbeads, but what you have written is not an opinion, it is a message full of hate for others who do not believe as you do. Your follow up posts just cement it.

[worthbeads]

Where does it say I hate people of other religions? Where does it say I want them out of the country. Where does it say "this is not my opinion, just some racist stuff I wanted to yell at everyone because I hate all living things"?

Please keep in mind my follow up questions were supposed to send a message of my outrage, but my original post wasn't supposed to be pure hatred, despite what you think.