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    Duckling's Avatar
    Duckling Posts: 45, Reputation: 9
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    #1

    Nov 12, 2007, 06:43 PM
    FRIGHTENING video catching Hillary Clinton's elections fraud?
    Should Hillary be sent to jail for this? Should she be held accountable for lying to the American people, and for election fraud? How did Hillary get away with this?
    This is frightening.

    What do you make of this:

    YouTube - The Shocking Video Hillary Does NOT Want You To See! (1of2)
    YouTube - The Shocking Video Hillary Does NOT Want You To See! (2of2)
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #2

    Nov 13, 2007, 06:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckling
    How did Hillary get away with this? This is frightening.
    Hello Duck:

    How did Hillary get away with this?? The same way George got away with it. Remember Abramhoff?? (snicker, snicker)

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #3

    Nov 13, 2007, 07:26 AM
    I can't watch Youtube but based on some digging I found out that the video is about the 2000 fundraiser that Peter Paul held for Evita . As I recall the money got pocketed .

    Once she is the nominee a lot of the unresolved crap from the end of the Clintoon reign will resurface ;especially Hillary's connection to the pardons that President Clintoon dished out for a fee.

    I for one can't wait for the New Square controversy to reopen .

    When Hillary Clinton decided to run for the New York Senate, she knew needed to reach a vast array of voters, in order to win the Senate. What better way for her to get votes, than to use her husband's power of pardoning or commute prison sentences.

    At the time, Clinton's campaign was desperately trying to boost stagnant support for her among the state's key Jewish voters. Her opponent, former Long Island Republican Rep. Rick Lazio, seemed to be gaining momentum.

    She knew that New York's Orthodox and chasidic communities would be a hard sell, as they were expressing their personal dislike for her and her positions, particularly regarding Israel. She needed to show she could win some support in Orthodox circles.

    In August of 2000, Hillary Clinton campaigned in a small town north of New York City, called
    New Square, a Chasidic Jewish village of 7,000 residents in Rockland County New York. (Which formerly voted overwhelmingly for arch-conservative Sen. Alfonse D'Amato).New Square was coping with a series of scandals in which top village officials were going to jail or fleeing the country for swindling tens of millions of dollars in federal education, housing and small-business subsidies in a decade-long scam.

    One widely publicized case included laundering money through a phony yeshiva set up in Brooklyn.

    Rabbi Twersky desperately wanted to win clemency for the four noted New Square residents who on Jan. 25, 1999 were convicted of 21 charges including conspiracy, embezzlement, and wire and mail fraud. Kalmen Stern, 42, was sentenced to 78 months; David Goldstein, 54, of Brooklyn, 70 months; Jacob Elbaum 40, 57 months; and Benjamin Berger, 30 months. They were ordered to pay back millions of dollars. [Of course, they stole TENS of millions]

    She met with Rabbi David Twersky, and afterwards, New Square officials began campaigning for Clinton, even outside the village, though Clinton's positions on such core issues as school vouchers, abortion and Israel were in opposition to New Square.
    Community members drove around in cars with loudspeakers urging -- in Yiddish -- Rockland County Orthodox residents to vote for her. A Yiddish weekly endorsed her based on lobbying from New Square.

    "It's not a secret their support was based on the hope that she would look, kindly towards the people that are incarcerated," said Rabbi Ronnie Greenwald, a prominent Orthodox leader who lives in nearby Monsey. "They really went out and helped her. It was an honest attempt to get votes and get support for Hillary Clinton."

    On Election Day, Clinton carried New Square, 1,400 to 12. It was a glaring exception to much of the Orthodox world and New Square's chasidic neighbors, who voted overwhelmingly for Lazio.
    Several weeks after her senate victory, she met with Rabbi David Twersky again, attending a meeting in the White House with President Clinton.

    During a scheduled 15-minute meeting on Dec. 22 that stretched into 45 minutes, according to New Square officials, Rabbi Twersky raised the issue of seeking mercy for the New Square four and help for fugitive Chaim Berger in Israel.

    Rabbi Twersky has never publicly commented about the sins of his community members, and repeatedly turned down interviews to explain the scandal.

    That visit launched a series of events that culminated in a controversial last-minute clemency action on behalf of New Square by outgoing President Clinton.
    The decision by President Clinton to commute the sentences of four prominent New Square men who stole tens of millions from the federal government in a phony yeshiva scheme enraged law enforcement officials.
    How Hillary became New York Senator - JT Thompson - Jan 03, 07

    This is but one of a series of unresolved questions about Hillary and the Clintonoids . She will be quick to call this stuff old news but I suspect she doesn't have the teflon of hubby ;and we are already on to the extent that staffers like Sandy Berger will go to protect the empress.
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #4

    Nov 13, 2007, 07:54 AM
    Tom,

    As a Jew, I have to say that I find the entire event to be disgusting. And I am personally NOT looking forward to this being rehashed an the national level.

    Nevertheless, assuming that Hillary does get the Dem nomination (and I don't doubt that she will) it is inevitable (in-evita-ble?) that this scandal and many others will be brought up again. Personally, I'm looking forward to hear her explanation of the death of Vince Foster, who apparently committed "suicide" in a park (where his brains, blood, and parts of his skull were found) with a gunshot to the head (or was it multiple gunshots... I forget), and then somehow walked back to his office, (where the rest of his body was found). As an EMT, I have never seen a dead person walk back to the office after committing suicide. But what do I know?

    But the New Square incident is PERSONALLY shameful to me as an Orthodox Jew.

    Elliot
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #5

    Nov 13, 2007, 09:12 AM
    Elliot ,
    I understand how you feel . I have had my dealings with the community at New Square . On another Q I mentioned how I admire the effectiveness of their block voting even as I find myself often at odds with them when their interests and mine clash.

    But that is just one of many examples I could've mentioned .Vince Foster is good . Webster Hubble and the Rose Law Firm records should also be on the table again... or the Marc Rich pardon and the Rich donation to the Clinton library is another.. . and now all the former scandals about Chinese donations is pertinent again.

    The worse part of the Peter Paul thing is that somehow Stan Lee got stung by it.
    Dark_crow's Avatar
    Dark_crow Posts: 1,405, Reputation: 196
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    #6

    Nov 13, 2007, 10:26 AM
    So, you expect an honest President... for the first time in history.
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #7

    Nov 13, 2007, 01:30 PM
    Duck, are you Jewish? Are you an MOT, a lantzman?

    According to Jewish Law, any person born of a Jewish mother is a Jew regardless of any personal actions he may take or level of observance of Jewish law (or secular law). It would be nice to think that the guys who did that stuff aren't Jewish because of their actions, but that's not how Judaism works.

    Worse, it's not how history has worked. How many non-affiliated Jews or downright rotten Jews have been associated with the Jewish people as a whole. The actions of individuals have been blamed on the entire people. Think about how many Frenchmen ended up hating "Jews" because of the perceived actions of a single man, Dreyfus. And Dreyfus wasn't even guilty of anything, he was framed. Think of how whole communities of Jews have been wiped out because of the perceived actions of a few in the blood libels and progroms throughout history. And again, in those cases, the Jews in question weren't even guilty of anything.

    How much worse can it be in a case where the Jews in question are undeniably guilty of the actions of which they are accused. How much more hatred of Jews will be generated?

    THAT is why I am embarrassed by these criminals in New Square. Regardless of the affiliation of these perpetrators (and they are Satmar Chassiddim, or what many refer to as "ultra-Orthodox" zealots) their actions reflect on all Jews. History has proven that.

    Elliot
    Duckling's Avatar
    Duckling Posts: 45, Reputation: 9
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    #8

    Nov 13, 2007, 01:52 PM
    Anyway this is what this post is about:

    Should Hillary be sent to jail for this? Should she be held accountable for lying to the American people, and for election fraud? How did Hillary get away with this?
    This is frightening.

    What do you make of this:

    YouTube - The Shocking Video Hillary Does NOT Want You To See! (1of2)
    YouTube - The Shocking Video Hillary Does NOT Want You To See! (2of2)
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
    Computer Expert and Renaissance Man
     
    #9

    Nov 13, 2007, 02:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckling
    Use some critical thought and then tell me what's set in stone. Also, we already know you are a radical...so maybe we differ in ideology there. I don't believe those men are Jewissh - they're not men of God.
    Ok this is not an issue of opinion anymore. This part is an issue of fact. I'm a jew, but I'm not a "man of god". There are plenty of so called "men of god" in various religions who bring shame upon their religion.

    In Judiasm, there really is no such thing as a "man of god". A rabbi is teacher nothing more, while he may be looked at as the spirtual leader of his community that's up to the community.

    Being Jewish is a function of your parentage and how you choose to live. Were these people good jews? Maybe not, but that doesn't make them any less jewish.

    You showed up here recently and all you seem to be doing is promoting Ron Paul and tearing down Hillary Clinton. Its clear where your loyalties and where your biases are. I'm sure everyone sees that.
    Dark_crow's Avatar
    Dark_crow Posts: 1,405, Reputation: 196
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    #10

    Nov 13, 2007, 02:14 PM
    Is there a “Jewish Race”….
    Duckling's Avatar
    Duckling Posts: 45, Reputation: 9
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    #11

    Nov 13, 2007, 02:53 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_crow
    Is there a “Jewish Race”….
    I don't believe it's a race, but rather, I believe it's a belief system. That's why I don't consider a malicious human being a Jew even if they tell the world that they are "Jewish". I think being Jewish is, instead, a great "mindset". So, I don't consider those men who stole millions, to be Jewish. But some of the things that are being pointed out by other people posting, I think, lean towards people thinking it's racial?

    I, instead, think that black, white, Chinese, whatever - you can be a Jew. Being a Jew isn't only reserved for middle easterners. Also, there have been many changes in the Jewish religion, such as the role of women. So, practices, interpretations and rules can vary and do change. I would rather further discuss this in a post devoted to religion.
    And Wolverine, I understand what you are saying about the actions of one bad Jew being able to be reflected on all Jews. But, I don't agree that this is right. Those men, in my opinion, are not truly Jewish. I'm going to talk about this in another post if you want to start one. I don't want to go off on an big tangent here and make this post about Judaism.

    And Scott, yes, you are right that these past few days I've actually been posting under politics. I'm not sure what else to say in regards to that. But yes, confirmed.
    I think what Hillary did was rotten. I like some of the things Ron Paul has to say.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #12

    Nov 13, 2007, 04:08 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckling
    I don’t believe it’s a race, but rather,I believe it’s a belief system.
    Hello Duck:

    If it's NOT a race, how come I can (for the most part) pick Jewish people out of a crowd by their faces?

    excon
    Dark_crow's Avatar
    Dark_crow Posts: 1,405, Reputation: 196
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    #13

    Nov 13, 2007, 04:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon
    Hello Duck:

    If it's NOT a race, how come I can (for the most part) pick Jewish people out of a crowd by their faces??

    excon
    But of course you can; :p problem is a geneticist cannot; regardless of what Elliot says about having a Jewish mother alone makes you a Jew. What makes a Jew is exactly what makes a Republican….beliefs. Never mind that Duckling is all wet about what makes a person religious. Duckling is confusing what might be termed a sinner in someone's eyes, as, being no longer a religious person.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
    Computer Expert and Renaissance Man
     
    #14

    Nov 13, 2007, 05:22 PM
    Duckling,

    You aren't paying attention. It doesn't matter what you believe its what Jewish law says. Practicing Judaism as a religion is a belief system. But a person can be a jew and not practice Judaism as a religion.
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
    Senior Member
     
    #15

    Nov 14, 2007, 08:47 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_crow
    Is there a “Jewish Race”….
    Well Hitler certainly thought so.

    In fact, throughout history, anti-Semites of all stripes have had an uncanny ability to find out who was and who was not Jewish, despite the fact that Jews throughout history have been great at blending into any society. In Germany, we sought to be (in the worrds of Abba Ebin) more German than the Germans. Hitler found us anyway. In France, we were perfect Frenchmen. It didn't stop anti-Semitism in the wake of the Dreyfus affair. In Poland, Russia, etc. we were as much a part of those societies as anyone, indestinguishable from all others. But somehow the anti-Semites always were able to figure out who we were.

    Is being Jewish a racial thing? I don't know. But it isn't an isolated case, DC. Whether its racial, tribal, religious, or something else, we have always been "obvious" to the Jew haters of history.

    Elliot
    Dark_crow's Avatar
    Dark_crow Posts: 1,405, Reputation: 196
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    #16

    Nov 14, 2007, 08:58 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine
    Well Hitler certainly thought so.

    In fact, throughout history, anti-Semites of all stripes have had an uncanny ability to find out who was and who was not Jewish, despite the fact that Jews throughout history have been great at blending into any society. In Germany, we sought to be (in the worrds of Abba Ebin) more German than the Germans. Hitler found us anyway. In France, we were perfect Frenchmen. It didn't stop anti-Semitism in the wake of the Dreyfus affair. In Poland, Russia, etc. we were as much a part of those societies as anyone, indestinguishable from all others. But somehow the anti-Semites always were able to figure out who we were.

    Is being Jewish a racial thing? I don't know. But it isn't an isolated case, DC. Whether its racial, tribal, religious, or something else, we have always been "obvious" to the Jew haters of history.

    Elliot
    Elliot, we are using reference from two different paradigms; you from a social and me from a scientific. Yours is sometime or often right, mine is always right, up to the present time anyway. Which is the better view, I believe mine because it will lead to a better relationship between different peoples, and the case of the American black community is an example.
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #17

    Nov 14, 2007, 09:39 AM
    The problem with the scientific view in this case, DC, is that it doesn't take into consideration the socio-political realities of racism.

    You are quite correct from a scientific standpoint... Jusaism isn't a single racial makeup. (Though I will aregue in some other string that there is a definite genetic component to Judaism.) But it doesn't matter that scientifically we aren't a single race if we are seen as such in the real world by real people with real hatreds of Jews.

    The facts "on the ground" show that people who hate Jews will always be able to identify them regardless of whether they are a genetic "race" or not.

    So yes, your scientific point of view is correct as far as it goes. But the lab isn't the real world. And in the real world the scientific point of view on this issue doesn't really matter to those who hate Jews.

    Elliot
    Dark_crow's Avatar
    Dark_crow Posts: 1,405, Reputation: 196
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    #18

    Nov 14, 2007, 11:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine
    The problem with the scientific view in this case, DC, is that it doesn't take into consideration the socio-political realities of racism.

    You are quite correct from a scientific standpoint... Jusaism isn't a single racial makeup. (Though I will aregue in some other string that there is a definite genetic component to Judaism.) But it doesn't matter that scientifically we aren't a single race if we are seen as such in the real world by real people with real hatreds of Jews.

    The facts "on the ground" show that people who hate Jews will always be able to identify them regardless of whether they are a genetic "race" or not.

    So yes, your scientific point of view is correct as far as it goes. But the lab isn't the real world. And in the real world the scientific point of view on this issue doesn't really matter to those who hate Jews.

    Elliot
    Elliot

    Promoting the concept that there is a race of people termed Jews is promoting racism. You did not respond to my comments about the “Black Race.”
    The idea that the “Black” race was inferior promoted racism in America for many years, and it is the same with the concept “Jewish Race”.

    The “Real World” as you term it…Social Reality, is a world created by humans, and it’s malleable, and so long as people continue to refer to people as belonging to a particular “race,” the world cannot rid itself of racism.
    gallivant_fellow's Avatar
    gallivant_fellow Posts: 157, Reputation: 31
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    #19

    Nov 14, 2007, 08:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_crow
    Elliot

    Promoting the concept that there is a race of people termed Jews is promoting racism. You did not respond to my comments about the “Black Race.”
    The idea that the “Black” race was inferior promoted racism in America for many years, and it is the same with the concept “Jewish Race”.

    The “Real World” as you term it…Social Reality, is a world created by humans, and it’s malleable, and so long as people continue to refer to people as belonging to a particular “race,” the world cannot rid itself of racism.
    First of all, we are all part of the human race. Remember the aliens on all of those movies talking about destroying "the human race?" Anthropologists are also really angry about how the word race is being used and encourage the word "ethnicity." I understand now, that race is tuned to mean ethnicity, so whatever.

    Well I didn't post this to quote alien movies and anthropologists, I just want to ask: What will getting rid of the word race or not referring to a group of people as a race do for racism? A generalizer with bad intentions will split as many hairs as possible to make conflict. Geez, look at blonde jokes. Look at the Hutus and the Tutsis; no difference there, but after some nose measuring and other minute physical comparisons, they had themselves two different kinds of people. That resulted in about 800,000 deaths, more than the American Civil War, in a little over 3 months. It's crazy. From what I've read and heard, Jew can mean either someone of Jewish descent, or it can be referring to a person's belief system. Sure, not referring to someone as part of a "Jewish race" will be an immediate solution, but then generalizers with bad intentions will look for something else like religion, partisan identification, hair color, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_crow
    as people continue to refer to people as belonging to a particular “race,” the world cannot rid itself of racism.
    One last question. How COULD the world rid itself of racism? My guess is that all racists would have to die. Lets round them all up based on their beliefs and kill them. Oh wait...
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #20

    Nov 15, 2007, 07:47 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_crow
    Elliot

    Promoting the concept that there is a race of people termed Jews is promoting racism. You did not respond to my comments about the “Black Race.”
    The idea that the “Black” race was inferior promoted racism in America for many years, and it is the same with the concept “Jewish Race”.

    The “Real World” as you term it…Social Reality, is a world created by humans, and it’s malleable, and so long as people continue to refer to people as belonging to a particular “race,” the world cannot rid itself of racism.
    DC,

    The point that I am trying to make is that I identify myself as a Jew and am proud of that heritage, and when another Jew does something to embarrass that heritage, it reflects poorly on other Jews and promotes discord against Jews. Whether that discord is a result of racism or non-racial bigotry is irrelevant. It still exists. And we must deal with the reality that it exists. And we must deal with the fact that it will contiinue to exist whether Jews are seen by others as a separate racial group or simply a separate tribal group or religious group.

    Changing the terminology cannot change the underlying hatred. That's not to say that we shouldn't change the terminology anyway. But that alone will not bring an end to the hatred and bigotry. A complete systemic change is necessary to change human nature, and changing the words used to describe the Jewish people isn't enough to change human nature.

    Elliot

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