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    SSchultz0956's Avatar
    SSchultz0956 Posts: 121, Reputation: 10
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    #1

    Nov 19, 2005, 04:01 PM
    Holy Cow!!
    Ok, I'm sure you have all heard about the kid that ran away from the military to Canada to avoid going to Iraq. His first excuse was that he thought if he returned he'd be persecuted, but since that didn't fly, he decided to claim the war was illegal. Obviously because this wasn't his first opinoin he is just making up excuses. Also, he VOLUNTEERED FOR THE MILITARY!! It's not like he was drafted and is dodging. Holy cow, what kind of person volunteers for the military knowing he will probably go to Iraq, and after he sucks on my tax dollars, he chickens out a few days before departure and flees to Canada. I understand he's scared to go to war, I sure would be. But what a waste and dishonor!! Especially for just using the excuse that the war is illegal (which has yet to be proven). This boy has dug himself a HUGE hole, and I don't think he really knows what he's doing.
    Chery's Avatar
    Chery Posts: 3,666, Reputation: 698
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    #2

    Nov 19, 2005, 04:33 PM
    I will probably get razzed for this, but my exhusband stayed in college by the skin of his teeth to prevent Viet Nam or he would have gone to Canada too, he did not 'believe' in killing, ha ha, he was a sociopath and a wife beater, but did not believe in killing...

    Then, since working for the military all of most of my career life, I've met soldiers who joined the Army and Air Force as a alternative to going to jail and being former gang members. So I guess it's OK to join a gang, go through initiation of killing in your own streets, and beating up and/or robbing people, but it's not OK to do the job you are getting paid to do when you wear that uniform. I'm not for war or against it, just a scared human being on a planet with a lot of wars for many different reasons. This young man could have gone to his psychiatrist, taken drugs, or something else to get discharged on a Chapter instead of going from the frying pan into the fire, but that's life.

    We are all experiencing WW III, in our own way, and it will probably get worse before better, but if you wear the uniform, don't expect to get paid sitting around at home.

    I lost a lot of friends in Viet Nam, and Iraq, also in New York, and mourn for them all and can understand the stress and fears every soldier goes through. Unfortunately it's part of reality.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #3

    Nov 19, 2005, 05:24 PM
    Chicken
    Can we say long prison term, if he wants something that should really scare him.

    No one forces anyone into the military. Too many of the reserve in years past joined not believing they would have to go. But today, every even in the reserves have had to enlist or re-enlist since the war has been going on.

    He should be punihsed to the full extent that the military can give him
    fredg's Avatar
    fredg Posts: 4,926, Reputation: 674
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    #4

    Nov 20, 2005, 04:55 AM
    Canada
    Hi,
    Whether he knows what is he doing or not, he made a really bad choice.
    Now, he has to live with it for a very long time. Many make choices in life, then back out at the last minute.
    I won't go into the Iraq war, cause it's being debated now among the American people, and Congress. Some did the same thing during the last wars, changing their mind at the last minute; some even beforehand, when the draft was still in effect.
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #5

    Nov 20, 2005, 06:25 AM
    I can see someone joining the military just to get, say, a computer job in this tough market. That person just wants to repair PCs and not be blown up by resistance fighters. I'm sure the guy would have less of a problem if the war he was involved in was to directly defend the US but this Iraq invasion is not.
    s_cianci's Avatar
    s_cianci Posts: 5,472, Reputation: 760
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    #6

    Nov 20, 2005, 07:16 AM
    Comment on Chery's post
    Very well put!
    s_cianci's Avatar
    s_cianci Posts: 5,472, Reputation: 760
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    #7

    Nov 20, 2005, 07:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by SSchultz0956
    Ok, i'm sure you have all heard about the kid that ran away from the military to Canada to avoid going to Iraq. His first excuse was that he thought if he returned he'd be persecuted, but since that didn't fly, he decided to claim the war was illegal. Obviously because this wasn't his first opinoin he is jsut making up excuses. Also, he VOLUNTEERED FOR THE MILITARY!!!! It's not like he was drafted and is dodging. Holy cow, what kind of person volunteers for the military knowing he will probably go to Iraq, and after he sucks on my tax dollars, he chickens out a few days before departure and flees to Canada. I understand he's scared to go to war, i sure would be. But what a waste and dishonor!!!!!! Especially for just using the excuse that the war is illegal (which has yet to be proven). This boy has dug himself a HUGE hole, and i don't think he really knows what he's doing.
    Very well said. It's a sad state of affairs when qualified young people don't want to take up arms and fight for their country. If this trend continues, our grandkids will be speaking arabic and our granddaughters will be keeping their faces veiled in public and categorically denied the right to even learn to read and write or choose their own husband. Incidentally, how doen one go about "proving" that a war is "illegal?" Did Cngress not authorize president Bush to use military force against Iraq? That makes the war perfectly "legal." Nothing in the military is illegal unless it violates the UCMJ or the Geneva Convention ; not that any other country besides the US pays attention to the latter. FREEDOM Isn't FREE. It's time for all of you under 50 (most of you who are over 50 already know this) to wake up and smell the coffee. I personally am under 50 but I know my history even if I didn't live it firsthand. Frankly I don't want to give our enemies an open invitation to come and take our country because we're afraid to fight. But that's exactly the message we're sending out.
    s_cianci's Avatar
    s_cianci Posts: 5,472, Reputation: 760
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    #8

    Nov 20, 2005, 07:33 AM
    Comment on Fr_Chuck's post
    Absolutely!
    s_cianci's Avatar
    s_cianci Posts: 5,472, Reputation: 760
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    #9

    Nov 20, 2005, 07:36 AM
    Comment on NeedKarma's post
    Every war is to directly defend the US, in one way or another
    SSchultz0956's Avatar
    SSchultz0956 Posts: 121, Reputation: 10
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    #10

    Nov 20, 2005, 08:41 AM
    I would like to just add to the previous comment, that those who argue that congress and the President had different intelligence, well, how about president CLinton who also said that Saddam had WMD's? I think it's obvious that the previous claim is beyond any reason. IF there was flawed intel, we got the same stuff!! The mere fact that Clinton, the democratic road scholar (in other words the man is a genious, and you have know idea how hard it is for me to type that) shows that the intel was more than just believable by all parties.

    You think it's an illegal war, ask those who are there:
    www.theotheriraq.com

    It's your obligation to check this out.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #11

    Nov 20, 2005, 09:04 AM
    Is the Iraq war illegal? How can it be when it was supported by Congress? If someone joins the military they have entered into a legal and binding contract. To breach that contract is illegal.

    Those are irrefutable facts. While I can appreciate and understand anyone's disdain for this war, the force of that contract takes precendence.

    But I have to comment on one other comment here:

    "s_cianci disagrees: Every war is to directly defend the US, in one way or another"

    That is so naïve its almost laughable. If you had said "Every war is to further US interests, in one or another" I could agree. But there have been several wars or conflicts that had nothing to do with defending the US.

    Scott<>
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #12

    Nov 20, 2005, 09:26 AM
    So why are you not in Iraq, fighting the good war?

    Quote Originally Posted by s_cianci
    Very well said. It's a sad state of affairs when qualified young people don't want to take up arms and fight for their country. If this trend continues, our grandkids will be speaking arabic and our granddaughters will be keeping their faces veiled in public and categorically denied the right to even learn to read and write or choose their own husband. Incidentially, how doen one go about "proving" that a war is "illegal?" Did Cngress not authorize president Bush to use military force against Iraq? That makes the war perfectly "legal." Nothing in the military is illegal unless it violates the UCMJ or the Geneva Convention ; not that any other country besides the US pays attention to the latter. FREEDOM ISN"T FREE. It's time for all of you under 50 (most of you who are over 50 already know this) to wake up and smell the coffee. I personally am under 50 but I know my history even if I didn't live it firsthand. Frankly I don't want to give our enemies an open invitation to come and take our country because we're afraid to fight. But that's exactly the message we're sending out.
    dimples's Avatar
    dimples Posts: 256, Reputation: 9
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    #13

    Nov 20, 2005, 10:28 AM
    Until now, I don't full get it why a lot of money & men are wasted on the fight in Iraq. To consider that most evidence points out to Afghanistan. While I strongly believe that we should condemn terrorism, it is not right to waste so much innocent lives there. Our men & their children & women have died for this cause.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
    Eternal Plumber
     
    #14

    Nov 20, 2005, 11:42 AM
    I needed a laugh this morning and this is it,
    "s_cianci disagrees: Every war is to directly defend the US, in one way or another"
    Spoken like a true right wingnut! From Reagan right on the Republicans have led us into quagmire after quagmire. And please don't pull that old saw that Clinton agreed that Iraq had WMD. He wasn't the one that put us in the middle against advisement. It's not his kids that are paying the price.
    You also gave me a chuckle when you said." Nothing in the military is illegal unless it violates the UCMJ or the Geneva Convention"
    I guess torture doesn't violate the Geneva Convention unless some other nation does it."What world do you live in anyhow?
    I am a combat vet from the last war that we went into to defend ourselves after we were attacked. Since you seem to think that every war we have waged has been for defensive reasons I'll not even bother telling you which one it was. In the meantime you keep on sounding like a cheap imitation of Cheny or Karl Rove and I'll keep on shooting you down. Tom
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #15

    Nov 20, 2005, 11:53 AM
    Sh*t! I click the wrong button, I meant to say I Approve, of course. I'll try to get that fixed.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #16

    Nov 20, 2005, 02:15 PM
    Addition
    I will add that I don't have a real problem with those that don't want to fight personally, people should not be forced into it unless their very life or nation is serious at risk.

    I do have a problem with the fact that not every able Iraq is not lined up to join the military or the police force. If they want to be free, they have to personally fight for it, this is their fight.

    That was my issue with the draft, but every single people in the military or reserve signed a paper while there was fighting going on

    I was born during the time of the draft, I got my draft card ( still have it)
    And watched the little numbers being picked on TV. The only stupid lottery I have ever won in my life. Well I inlisted the next day so I could get the job I wanted.

    (yep, signed the papers was promised my job, then after basic they put me where they wanted me anyway, Oh well)
    Chery's Avatar
    Chery Posts: 3,666, Reputation: 698
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    #17

    Nov 20, 2005, 03:20 PM
    War is Hell, all of then are - who's got an answer to stop them all?
    My step-dad was born in 1908, joined the Army before he was 18, fought in North Africa. My dad fought in Korea. I'm sure that they did not stop thinking about their families and friends through it all, but they had a mission and did not shirk it. My first fiancé is still missing in Viet Nam - he was just as frightened, and so was I. Every 'conflict' has sacrificed people, and those left at home handled it as best as possible. Now we call it 'post-traumatic stress syndrome' and it hits every one of us involved, in uniform or out. How would the world have looked like with people like Hitler as a 'winner'? How is our future going to look like? Nobody's sure, but it's not the time to be passive with things like the current terrorism, and other threats, no matter from where. Most need the reassurance that it will not be tolerated. Ask those in New York how they feel. Why do so many Vietnamese and Koreans immigrate? And now, there are Germans who want to leave their own country because things are getting 'hot' and no longer a 'free ride'. There is no solution, but passivity until it comes to your own backyard is not the answer, and neither is running away.

    What do we try to teach our kids when they are 'bullied' in school? Most of us try to instill courage, or some want to fight their battles for them. Not all arguments big or small are 'fair'. Ask a Viet Nam veteran who the 'real' enemy was.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #18

    Nov 20, 2005, 03:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by s_cianci
    It's a sad state of affairs when qualified young people don't want to take up arms and fight for their country.
    Another ridiculous and naïve comment. I don't see anyone refusing to fight for their country. I do see people refusing, and rightly so, to fight for a different country. Bush's actions in Iraq, were premature and ill-advised. There is no question about that. In my opinion they were also unethical and immoral. And I said the same before the war started.

    I don't blame anyone for not wanting to fight this war.

    Scott<>
    Chery's Avatar
    Chery Posts: 3,666, Reputation: 698
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    #19

    Nov 20, 2005, 04:15 PM
    Even though I'm not a fan of the french political structure during Viet Nam (because I think they started the,mess, chickened out, and then expected the US to clean up) or current events, I do seem to remember some history book that taught me that they did fight a battle for another country a long time ago, and it was not their war either...
    There is a military structure, and it does not involve raising your hand and stating if you want to get involved in this conflict or another, no votes count here. There is no union either. You sign the papers, get your paycheck, get free medical treatment for you and your family, get to travel to other countries, learn other cultures, get an education you probably couldn't afford in civilian life. You are obligated for a certain time in your life to serve and protect the freedom of your country as well as assisting other countries to gain their freedom. Until someone comes up with another solution, that's a fact, jack...

    The Iraq people have been oppressed by tyranny for so long that they still fear repercusssion - it's all a long process for any country, otherwise wars would be finished on a schedule - that seems like micromanagent thinking and not reality.
    wizzkid89's Avatar
    wizzkid89 Posts: 243, Reputation: 63
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    #20

    Nov 20, 2005, 05:47 PM
    First I don't really know what is going on in Iraq, but I do know what is going on at home. I go to my high school and they're are recuiters there asking if I am willing to do combat, and I don't know what to say. A lot of people have their ideas on this but most of them aren't at risk of fighting, the majority of you on here will not fight this war, but yet you tell us to go out there and do what's right. Right is a point of view. I know and commend any body who goes out there and fights in Iraq, and yes most of them do it for other reasons(money, jobs, education). For instance a girl who sits in front of me in calculus tells me that her future husband is going to fight in Iraq and she will join the army too, not for the freedom of the Iraqi's but rather so they can have a nice house and a white pickett fence. They do it to keep the american dream alive not to help the right wing or the left wing, and that is honorable. But remember that most teenager want to start there lives not have to go out and have a chance of it being taken away, that is a major decision to say the least, and it takes a special kind of person to have the capacity to kill. So if you ask me if I am in favor of Iraq, no I am not but I don't dissaprove either, I am more angered that my generation is looked down upon and considered by most as having no ethics or no ambition and that all we do to is drink/sleep/watch mtv/ and fight with each other, yet we are the ones fighting the war. So instead of everyone putting us down and saying that the world is going to hell and we are driving why can't you at the very least express some sort of gratitude for fighting this war, when in all honesty we don't have to.

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