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Are We Sending The Right Message
What are we teaching our youth today when we ostosize and condemn those among us who are a little different? I don't give a rats behind if you believe in God or your baby toe!what difference does it make.you mean to tell me that gay people can't be good human beings,and since when does any one person have a right to judge another.The worst part is we pass the poison of intolerance on to another generation.When are we going to wake up and at least try to do the right thing and stop teaching hatred to our kids.Boy Scouts should be the shinig example of the way we raise our male children not a politically motivated witch hunt to perpetrate the practice of inequallity and hatred. :mad:
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What is all this reference to the "separation of church and state?" Such a doctrine never existed. The phrase "separation of church and state" is nowhere to be found in the constitution. The first amendment reads, in part: "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof . Those who make court cases out of this amendment seem to conveiniently overlook the latter half of this sentence. To deny the Boy Scouts the use of a military facility because of their pledge to do their duty "to God", to declare the phrase "under God" from the pledge of allegiance unconstitutional, to prohibit prayer in schools, to prohibit displays of the ten commandments, nativity scenes or any other religious symbols on public property are all violations of the 1st amendment which guarantees all Americans "the free exercise (of religion) thereof." Although we as a society cannot compel our fellow citizens to suscribe to or accept any set of beliefs, we likewise cannot deny any American the right to worship or acknowledge God anywhere or anytime (s)he wants. Nor can we deny any group equal access to any public facilities because of any doctrine to which they may adhere based on any allegiance to God and the moral beliefs that may arise out of such allegiance. If, instead of the Boy Scouts, a group of young people advocating Gay Rights wanted to use the military facility in question, would the ACLU fight to stop that? We can't have it both ways, folks. Either it's tolerance for all viewpoints and beliefs, right and left alike, or we become a police state that is totally intolerant of anything other than what those in power want, a la George Orwell's hypothetical world as described in his novel 1984 . Personally I'll vote for tolerance for all beliefs and attitudes. I think gay is wrong, you think gay is right. I'll carry my sign down the street and you carry yours down that same street right alongside me. That's what America is all about!
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You are correct that the phrase does not appear in the Constitution. However, that doesn't mean the doctrine is any less real nor does it mean the founding fathers didn't believe in and subscribe to it. I found a very good site (http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/tnpidx.htm) that makes a very strong case for the doctrine.
There is a lot of truth in what you say, but there is one place where you go too far; "we likewise cannot deny any American the right to worship or acknowledge God anywhere or anytime (s)he wants.". To allow ANY group to use public facilities and public money to promote their way of worship is infringing on other group's rights to worship the way they want. Also your apparent antipathy towards the ACLU shows through. What makes you think the ACLU wouldn't protest if public funds were used to support a Gay Rights convention? The analogy doesn't hold completely since Gay Rights is a lifestyle, not a religious issue. If the organization were Gays for Jesus (I have no idea if that is a real group or not) I would expect the ACLU to protest just as loudly. I agree with you that tolerance must be universal, which is one of the reasons the BSA got such a black eye over their hypocritical display of intolerance. But the court's issue was the use of public funds and facilities, not the right of the organization to conduct its event. Scott<> |
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BS from BSA
Let's see. The Boy Scouts kicked out a boy because he was raised as a atheist. They also ban gays from joining. Since this is a private organization with no public funding they can do this but I'd like some one to show me where this isn't religious discrimination in the first case and outright homophobia bigotry in the second. The message being send to the young membership is that if your different or don't have the same views as the majority that you're less of a person and we don't associate with "lesser persons".
Intolerance, bigotry, discrimination and homophobia are what's being taught here. I was a Scout many years ago and while they still had God in their creed I don't recall them banning any one for a belief or lack thereof. This turn to the right disturbs me and the fact that it's being taught to young boys disturbs me ever more. |
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This is why the BSA can discriminate, they are a private organization. Fact, there was a 1992 study done by K. Freud and R.I. Watson that found that homosexual males are three times more likely than hetero's to engage in acts of molestation with boys. I am not saying that gay people are child molestors, but with studies like this the BSA is held accountable for what takes place within their organization. If a kid is molested and the BSA ignored studies like this, they will get sued for millions of dollars. However, the most important reason that the ACLU is wrong is this: What if a church doesn't advocate homosexuals? Is the government going to force that church to have gay clergy? That's stupid. HOw about the ACLU, do they have any leaders who are religious right-wingers? NO!! They would never give a top position to someone who doesn't believe what they do. I guess they are discriminating against me!! Did any of yo know that the ACLU had the BSA removed from using schools for meetings etc in Chicago, San Diego, and other places. They are removing a program that teaches basic principles to young boys that can help them throughout their lives. Water safety, first aid, environmental science, gun safety, knife safety, how to build a fire, etc. They teach discipline and maturity to their youth. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT!! So they exclude gay people from their leadership, it's a liability issue, they can't do it and for some reason you guys cannot comprehend that. My church doesn't advocate homosexuality, as a matter of fact, if they have no desire to repent of the sin (I understand you don't agree with this, I;m entitled to my opinion) they are excommunicated. HOwever, so are adulterers that don't want to repent. Are we wrong for this, these people don't follow our precepts. Also, we let them back into the church if they so desire at a later time. It's not discrimination, it's personal beliefs.
Liberals always ride my butt for not "listening to their opinions" (which is true, but there is hypocrisy in that statement). Some of you believe homosexuality is OK, but some of us don't. Is our opinion not worth respecting? I have a lot of liberal friends, and even though I am very hard headed with their opinions, I still respect their opinions because they know what they are talking about. They also have that respect for me. They are also as hard headed as I am with liberalism. To my point: The BSA has their opinion, and it's not their fault nor problem that some of you get so "offended" by their opinions. Get over it! They are entitled to that with or without the Constitution!! |
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 Originally Posted by fredg
Judges interpret laws, that's what they do. Precedent is a large part of that system. Its not to "change" laws its to intepret them in terms of the Constitution. There have been bad precedents as well as good ones. Some precedents were set in the context of current times and have been changed as times change. That blows the rest of your alleged fact. Scott<> |
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Originally Posted by SSchultz0956
You talk about American values. One of the most cherished is 'innocent until proven guilty'. Yet you are ready to discriminate against a gay person (and I'm talking specifically about kids not the adults) because they are more likely to molest. That's garbage! If a kid (or even an adult) wanted to continue to be part of the Scouts they would be LESS likely do anything that would get them kicked out. I don't believe homosexuality is "OK". I believe, on the basis of scientific evidence, that it is not a choice. Are we to condemn people who are left handed or blonde or brown-eyed? Are lot of your arguments are farcial and I won't bother responding to them. I respect your opinion about the ACLU. There is reasonable basis for it because of their over zealous actions. I don't agree with a lot of things they do. But you miss the whole point of the BSA issue. As I said they are entitled to restrict their membership. But go back to the post where I posted the oath. To do what they have done when their OWN literature says what it says is the height of hypocrisy. Scott<> |
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Separation
Hi, Again, to ScottGem,
I did NOT say that activist judges "invented" the words "separation of church and state". I DID say that the ACLU seeks out activist and liberal judges to USE those words in changing and creating laws to get what they want. These new laws then become precedents for more activist judges to use later. This is not a theory, it's truth. If you wish to research laws, when they were made, and who made them for the ACLU and other minority organizations, it's well known that activist judges made them; with the ACLU seeking out those judges for decisions. |
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Originally Posted by ScottGem
I don't believe homosexuality is "OK". I believe, on the basis of scientific evidence, that it is not a choice. Are we to condemn people who are left handed or blonde or brown-eyed?
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Originally Posted by SSchultz0956
When many public facilities (many voluntarily) chose to not allow the BSA to use their facilities, the slack was taken by private facilities. Churches, fraternal organizations and others kept troops going which fine. I'm sure there are facilities in Chicago where BSA troops continue to meet. Originally Posted by SSchultz0956
http://www.soc.hawaii.edu/WS350/spr0...%20biology.htm Again you try to twist the issue. You confuse homosexuality with transsexuality. Homosexuality is the attraction of one person to members of their same sex. Transsexuality is the issue of a someone being born into the wrong body. And there have been documented cases of that. Did "God screw up" in those cases? Scott<> |
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Schultz,
You ask, "Speedball, question: I would like a source for that reference you made to the BSA kicking out a boy for not believing in God. I seemed to have missed that one. The New York Times reported on November 3, 2002, that a Seattle-area Eagle Scout named Darrell was asked to reconsider his outspoken atheism or leave the Boy Scouts. Question 1: What do Mormons, Islamic extremists, Scientologists, Druids and hypocrites all have in common? Answer: They can all join the Scout Association – but humanists,(Atheists) can’t. Question 2: What do paedophiles and atheists have in common? Answer: They are the only two groups automatically excluded from volunteering in the Scout Association. Why are atheists so hated? That’s a difficult question to answer. Regardless of why someone becomes an atheist, the mere fact that they don’t bother to accept such a popular belief like theism represents a fundamental challenge to all theists’ belief and religion. Just by living and getting by day-to-day, atheists demonstrate that belief in gods isn’t needed to enjoy life, to succeed in life, and to make life better. What is the Boy Scouts of America policy on gays? - It's hard to determine exactly what the policy is, since it is not stated in the BSA Bylaws, Rules and Regulations, or Procedures for Maintaining Standards of Membership, nor in any leader manual or handbooks that boys and parents use, nor in any training course syllabus, nor on any application. The earliest written record was in an internal memo dated 1978; it first reached public attention when Tim Curran sued the BSA in 1980; and it was discussed in Scouting magazine twice only in 1992. It appears in various briefing and position papers for BSA internal use only. The closest thing to a National Council or Executive Board policy statement was a request for those who supported the lawsuits to stand. In defending their stance, National Council spokesmen usually quote from the Scout Oath: "to keep myself morally straight" and the Scout Law: "A Scout is Clean." They state their support of "traditional family values" and leaders as "moral role models." The National Council Boy Scouts of America gives out the message to the public, scouters and adult leaders that people who are gay do not have family values and don't live moral lives. The BSA places all gay people into one category, negating the diversity and uniqueness of people who are gay. They claim through their logic that there is such a thing as a gay way of believing. There are conservative, liberal and moderate people who are gay. They come from all walks of life and represent every segment of society. Would they also use that same logic when describing heterosexual people? They espouse the belief that gays have inferior values then their own. The National Council Boy Scouts of America has not defined what they mean when they use the term "family values." The BSA practice is to deny registration to any "known or avowed" homosexual. In fact they have dismissed gays, children of gay or lesbian parents, bisexuals, celibate homosexuals, and suspected homosexuals. While the stance is apparently "don't ask, don't tell," they do act on anonymous tips and "common community knowledge" and have carried on intrusive investigations "This is why the BSA can discriminate." I like the way you started that post and discriminate they certainly do. I notice thatyou have no defense against the charge of religious discrimination and homosexual bigotry. Is this because you were raised in a household that condones religious discrimination and gay bigotry or did you pick it up later in life? Inquiring minds want to know! Tom |
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Originally Posted by fredg
Scott<> |
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Tom,
Well said! I'm glad someone else here is showing factual information rather then trying to obfuscate the real issue, that the BSA is hypocritical in that they practice discrimination in violation of their own published values. Scott<> |
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Originally Posted by speedball1
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