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    fredg's Avatar
    fredg Posts: 4,926, Reputation: 674
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    #1

    Nov 13, 2005, 08:18 AM
    Boy Scouts
    Hi,
    I have an interesting question for your consideration and opinions. But first, here is a little history of the Boy Scouts of America.

    Scouting began in England in 1907-08, created by General Robert Baden-Powell. B-P, a 50-year old bachelor at the time, and was one of the few heroes to come out of Britain's Boer War.
    The Boy Scouts of America (which also uses the name Scouting/USA) was founded by Chicago publisher William Boyce on February 8, 1910.

    The Boy Scout Oath is:
    On my honor, I will do my best
    To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
    To help other people at all times;
    To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

    "A federal judge ruled that the Pentagon can no longer spend money to prepare a Virginia military base for use by a national quadrennial Boy Scout jamboree that attracts 40,000 Scouts and leaders, plus 300,000 parents and spectators. Although the jamboree is a 25-year-old institution, the ACLU persuaded an activist judge to ban it in the future because the Boy Scouts pledge to do their duty to God and country."

    The above quoted from: http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2005/s...psrsept05.html

    This is just one of many examples of the work of the ACLU.
    Do you agree, or disagree, that the Boy Scouts not be allowed to have their National Jamboree on a military base because they pledge to do their duty to "God"?
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #2

    Nov 13, 2005, 04:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by fredg
    "A federal judge ruled that the Pentagon can no longer spend money to prepare a Virginia military base for use by a national quadrennial Boy Scout jamboree that attracts 40,000 Scouts and leaders, plus 300,000 parents and spectators. Although the jamboree is a 25-year-old institution, the ACLU persuaded an activist judge to ban it in the future because the Boy Scouts pledge to do their duty to God and country."
    This quote shows the spin that was used to demonize the court's actions. The judge said ONLY that the military budget could not be used. This is consistent with Separation of Church and State. But the article goes on to claim that the ACLU got it banned in the future. That is spewing misinformation. There is no ban on the jamborees, just a ban against having it on a military base and using military funds to support it.

    By the way, I am a former scout and scoutleader. However, I am disgusted with the BSA's intolerance toward certain life styles. In my view, the BSA is paying the price for that intolerance.

    Scott<>
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #3

    Nov 13, 2005, 05:07 PM
    Scouts
    It is so important that the scouts keep the moral values and ethics that they are so well known for. They are a great group.

    And the real problem is that most soldiers hold the same concepts.
    Now perhaps a military budget should not be used for the event, but I am sure the scouts and/or the military personal privately could raise the funds.

    But you are right, this is a very good case of extreme activist judges not ruling on law, but ruling on personal prejustices and bias. Because of the scouts moral values and faith, they are a target for thoses that dispise such values.

    I would say that those who just don't like the group, and wish to have a group that would be accepting of lower values and morals, should start their own groups. There are within certain churches, groups of youth based on similar systems but working outside the scouts because they are even more strict on teachings and values.

    But too many people ( often without chidren or even an interst in the scouts) merely prefer to attack a group that has been effective as they are for years. They don't want to work at making a group better, or work within a groups guildelines, but prefer to destroy. If they would start a group and it is really that much better, guess what they would take over all the kids over time. Guess destroying something good is just easier.
    fredg's Avatar
    fredg Posts: 4,926, Reputation: 674
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    #4

    Nov 14, 2005, 06:48 AM
    Boy Scouts
    HI,
    Thank you for your opinions.
    The one about being "disgusted" with the Boy Scouts due to intolerance toward certain lifestyles is indicative of some's feelings. I applaud the Boy Scouts of America for "sticking to their guns", of sticking with their morals and beliefs. Certain lifestyles are trying to become the "norm", by allowing actions that have never been allowed before.
    Changing American morals and values because of any minority groups will, as I have often stated, be closely examined by the majority of the American public. Hats off to the Boy Scouts.
    Destroying "something good" is the goal of most of this, meaning destroying traditional beliefs. Not allowing the word "God" to be used in an oath on public property (such as a military base) is the work of these minorities.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #5

    Nov 14, 2005, 07:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    But you are right, this is a very good case of extreme activist judges not ruling on law, but ruling on personal prejustices and bias.
    Nope, wrong again. The doctrine of separation of church and state is sufficient legal justification for this ruling.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fredg
    I applaud the Boy Scouts of America for "sticking to their guns", of sticking with their morals and beliefs. Certain lifestyles are trying to become the "norm", by allowing actions that have never been allowed before.
    The paradox here is that the values that the Scouts have promoted all these years are what they themselves are turning their backs on. As a scout I was taught brotherhood, I was taught to respect other people's beliefs and to applaud diversity. I was taught tolerance of people who were different then I.

    Yet when a scout who clearly embodied all these values they promote, a scout who had attained the highest honors offered by the organization acknowleged his biological imperative and admitted his homosexuality, this organization turned intolerant and expelled him. For no other reason then his sexuality. That was what turned many people against the organization. That's when schools and other public places started refusing to provide space for them. Note, that the Girl Scouts, an organization with similar values, morals and ethics was not treated similarly.

    I won't get into a debate about homsexuality.

    Scott<>
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #6

    Nov 14, 2005, 07:34 AM
    I find it quite sad that the ACLU is doing that. I see why they are but the scouts promote the development of good skills and values in children. My kid will probably get involved in the scouts and fake the allegiance to God - just like the majority of part-time christians.
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    fredg Posts: 4,926, Reputation: 674
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    #7

    Nov 14, 2005, 07:42 AM
    Become a Scout
    Hi,
    Thank you, NeedKarma, for your post.
    I do wish your child the very best in the Boy Scouts. Who knows? Maybe he will get to know what the oath really means, including the beliefs in all of it.
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    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #8

    Nov 14, 2005, 08:00 AM
    You're welcome. We 're open to all sorts of things. If he decides that he wants to be a regular church goer then I'm behind him all the way.
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #9

    Nov 14, 2005, 08:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by fredg
    I do wish your child the very best in the Boy Scouts. Who knows? Maybe he will get to know what the oath really means, including the beliefs in all of it.
    What the oath really means:
    The Meaning of the Boy Scout Oath
    Excerpted from page 45-46, Boy Scout Handbook, 11th ed,
    (#33105), copyright 1998 by BSA, ISBN 0-8395-3105-2
    and from page 420-421, Webelos Scout Book, 1998 edition,
    (#33108), copyright 1998 by BSA, ISBN 0-8395-3108-7
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Before you pledge yourself to any oath or promise, you must know what it means. The paragraphs that follow will help you understand the meaning of the Scout Oath.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    On my honor.. .
    By giving your word, you are promising to be guided by the ideals of the Scout Oath.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .. . I will do my best.. .
    Try hard to live up to the points of the Scout Oath. Measure your achievements against your own high standards and don't be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .. . To do my duty to God.. .
    Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .. . And my country.. .
    Help keep the United States a strong and fair nation by learning about our system of government and your responsibilities as a citizen and future voter.

    America is made up of countless families and communities. When you work to improve your community and your home, you are serving your country. Natural resources are another important part of America's heritage worthy of your efforts to understand, protect, and use wisely. What you do can make a real difference.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .. . And to obey the Scout Law;.. .
    The twelve points of the Scout Law are guidelines that can lead you toward wise choices. When you obey the Scout Law, other people will respect you for the way you live, and you will respect yourself.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .. . To help other people at all times;.. .
    There are many people who need you. Your cheerful smile and helping hand will ease the burden of many who need assistance. By helping out whenever possible, you are doing your part to make this a better world.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .. . To keep myself physically strong,
    Take care of your body so that it will serve you well for an entire lifetime. That means eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep, and exercising regularly to build strength and endurance. It also means avoiding harmful drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and anything else that can harm your health.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .. . Mentally awake,
    Develop your mind both in the classroom and outside of school. Be curious about everything around you, and work hard to make the most of your abilities. With an inquiring attitude and the willingness to ask questions, you can learn much about the exciting world around you and your role in it.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .. . And morally straight.
    To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lets take a look at some of the points here:
    -Measure your achievements against your own high standards and don't be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do.
    -by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.
    -With an inquiring attitude and the willingness to ask questions, you can learn much about the exciting world around you and your role in it.
    -You should respect and defend the rights of all people.

    I believe in what this oath says. And it sickens me that, as I pointed out, the organization has corrupted this oath by their own intolerance.

    Scott<>
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #10

    Nov 14, 2005, 12:35 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    I find it quite sad that the ACLU is doing that. I see why they are but the scouts promote the development of good skills and values in children. My kid will probably get involved in the scouts and fake the allegiance to God - just like the majority of part-time christians.
    I don't see a need to "fake" an allegiance to God unless one is an atheist or maybe an agnostic. Anyone else would seem to have a belief in some god. Of course, there might be someone who may believe in a god but doesn't want to pledge allegiance to them. I guess they would have to fake it.

    ::taking tongue out of cheek::

    Scott<>
    fredg's Avatar
    fredg Posts: 4,926, Reputation: 674
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    #11

    Nov 15, 2005, 07:13 AM
    Bigot
    Hi,
    ScottGem has made many, many posts to this thread.
    Bigotry?
    I guess that's a word he uses after someone stands up for the rights of the majority, the Boy Scout's decision to ban a scout of a particular practice, and society's minorities' views.
    I do not agree with minorities changing the morals, values, and traditions of the majority, and especially of a majority group that has deep-rooted traditions.
    ScottGem does have some good points, as usual, but some are also completely "far fetched", describing what he feels is a "bigot". Using his thinking, many, many Americans are "bigots", because their feelings and opinions are different from his!
    I object to being called a "bigot".
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #12

    Nov 15, 2005, 07:27 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by fredg
    I do not agree with minorities changing the morals, values, and traditions of the majority, and especially of a majority group that has deep-rooted traditions.
    Have you ever been the minority anywhere or do you stay close to home?
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #13

    Nov 15, 2005, 10:32 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by fredg
    Hi,
    ScottGem has made many, many posts to this thread.
    Bigotry?
    I guess that's a word he uses after someone stands up for the rights of the majority, the Boy Scout's decision to ban a scout of a particular pratice, and society's minorities' views.
    I do not agree with minorities changing the morals, values, and traditions of the majority, and especially of a majority group that has deep-rooted traditions.
    ScottGem does have some good points, as usual, but some are also completely "far fetched", describing what he feels is a "bigot". Using his thinking, many, many Americans are "bigots", becuase their feelings and opinions are different from his!
    I object to being called a "bigot".
    If you object to being called a bigot then stop acting like one. According to Merriam Webster:

    Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

    I can point to several statements you have made (some you have retracted) that show your bigotry. The first (that I saw) was in the 'What Does God look like' thread. In this thread, you applaud the BSA for "sticking to their guns". Yet one of their "guns" is "-You should respect and defend the rights of all people." So explain to me how their intolerance towards homosexuality is "sticking to their guns"? By applauding them for their intolerance you are displaying your own bigotry.

    Talk to us more of the "rights of the majority". Does being in the majority allow prejudice against and oppression of the minority? That's not in keeping with so called "Amercian Values", that's bigotry.

    Show us where a minority group was "changing the morals, values, and traditions of the majority"? If we are talking about the Eagle Scout who was banned, by all accounts he was a model Boy Scout. There was never any hint of his behaving inappropriately towards any other scout. He simply chose to acknowledge his biology. How did that try to change the "morals, values and traditions" of an organization that preaches respect and tolerance for all? Seems to me that was very much in step with those "morals, values and traditions".

    I don't dispute that the BSA was within their rights to ban the kid. But I do, vehemently, dispute that doing so was consistent with the lessons they have taught for close to a century. I think I have more than adequately proven that point using THEIR own words.

    So show me what points I have made that are "far-fetched". Show me, given the definition of bigot, how my describing your words, doesn't meet that definition.

    As you may have gathered you hit a sore point with me. I detest bigotry and intolerance. I detest the idea that the majority can lord it over the minority just because it is the majority. A better man than I said it best; "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." That doesn't mean majority rule. That means respecting the rights of EVERYONE!

    Scott<>
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    SSchultz0956 Posts: 121, Reputation: 10
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    #14

    Nov 15, 2005, 11:13 AM
    Hi guys,

    It seems that scotty forgot about the Lemon Test. Just because the boyscouts do make reference to God, their purpose is very secular. They teach important things that all young men should know. The government money would not be promoting any religious affiliation. Freddy is right that the ACLU strategizes to locate radical judges and than plot with someone to make something out of nothing. It happened in the scope monkey trial. Before the trial the ACLU was advertising for someone to teach evolution in science class, a teacher said he would do it for them. The teacher was J.T. Scopes, and the ACLU pretty much set it up to win. They follow tactcs that do not support democracy. They don't lobby to win the votes, instead they get what they want from radical judges who legislate from the bench, and not speaking out for the people. It has happened time and time again. Every now and then they support a right-winger to further their claim that they aren't radicals. If you believe that, believe Baldwin their founder who said,"I am for socialism, disarmambent, and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an insrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownersip of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole control by tose who produce wealth. Communism is the goal!" You can find this quote in the 1192 policy guide of the ACLU: policy 4d, p.7, and polic 4g, p.9. Freddy, you are completely right!!
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    SSchultz0956 Posts: 121, Reputation: 10
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    #15

    Nov 15, 2005, 11:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    Have you ever been the minority anywhere or do you stay close to home?
    BTW, I actulally am a minority. I have felt discrimination in my life, and I still stick up for the majority, because that's what democracy is all about. Socialists may not agree, but it's the american way. DEMOCRACY!
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    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #16

    Nov 15, 2005, 11:24 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by SSchultz0956
    BTW, i actulally am a minority. I have felt discrimination in my life, and i still stick up for the majority, because that's what democracy is all about. socialists may not agree, but it's the american way. DEMOCRACY!
    As you probably know the question was posed to Fred but just out of curiosity, in what way are you a minority?
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    SSchultz0956 Posts: 121, Reputation: 10
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    #17

    Nov 15, 2005, 11:43 AM
    I am a mormon, which at first doesn't make for much of a minority, but consider this: Most christian denominations don't accept us as christians for reasons beyond me. I live in the bible belt, and have received much discrimination from various religions, but primarily baptists. Not to say they are bad, it just turns out many of them hate us. The ideas that these other "christian" people propagate about us make people hate us. It's marginal compared to others, but it's definitely there. I don't claim that I have felt what some that belong to minority races do, however, I must add that my heritage as a mormon is saturated with prejudices against us. The Missouri extermination order which permitted the murder of any mormon. Persecution that started in New England and never left even after the migration to Utah. Much of the discrimination however is from christians, though I have received some minor things from a couple of atheists that I know, primarily because of the rumors they have heard about us.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #18

    Nov 15, 2005, 12:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by SSchultz0956
    Just because the boyscouts do make reference to God, their purpose is very secular. They teach important things that all young men should know. The government money would not be promoting any religious affiliation.
    I was wondering if anyone would catch that one weak link. And I admit it is a weak link. But apparently a federal judge felt, that even though the BSA is a secular organization, its insistence that its member believe in God, was enough.

    As for the rest of your diatribe against the ACLU. The following is from the ACLU's mission statement (http://www.aclu.org/about/aboutmain.cfm):

    The ACLU is our nation's guardian of liberty. We work daily in courts, legislatures and communities to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to every person in this country by the Constitution and laws of the United States. Our job is to conserve America's original civic values - the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; and that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.


    I couldn't find any place to confirm your quote, not that I deny it, but I would like to see the context.

    I wonder what you think of the fact that the Pledge of Allegiance was originally written to promote the ideals of a utopian socialist?

    As for democracy being the American way, I beg to differ. The United States is a federal REPUBLIC. It is not now, nor was it ever intended to be a democracy. Our founding fathers feared democracy since it's the rule of the majority. They feared that majority rule can become oppressive and tyrannical. That's what they designed a republic and built in protections for individual rights (the rights the ACLU protects) into the Constitution.

    Scott<>
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    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #19

    Nov 15, 2005, 12:31 PM
    Steve,

    Well that certainly sucks. The baptists there really have no right in discriminating against anyone - that's a good example but the hypocrisy of being a 'good' christian. I was a Big Brother for 6 years and my Little Brother's mom was a Jehovah Witness. Other than not being able to give the little guy presents it was not an issue at all.

    Now you are correct in that being a mormon really isn't much of a minority example. I was looking more like landing on an island when you are white and all around you are black folks who speak a different language. That teaches you to see the other side of the issue (depending of the outcome of the experience). I had the opportunity to backpack through Europe years ago. Since I'm bilingual in English and French then there was no problem in England and France but when I missed a train stop in Italy and got out in a very small village at 2am then I said "now the adventure begins" as no one spoke english. Good times, good times.
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    SSchultz0956 Posts: 121, Reputation: 10
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    #20

    Nov 15, 2005, 07:44 PM
    I would add needkarma, that I have also experienced being the minority while I spent my mission in the Philippines for two straight years. This would probably play a more significant role in my experience because there I was certainly a minority in every way even considering the fact that I speak filipino (tagalog) fluently. As for Scotty, most people when they say america is a democracy they mean republican democracy. Sorry for not completely specifying what I meant. I assumed everyone else would assume so. You all know what happens when we assume I guess.

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