[SSchultz0956]

I was wondering what peoploe think about organizations like the ACLU trying to get christian icons removed from public schools. They go as far as saying that even the colors red and green count as icons for christmas and should not be used. It seems to me they are a bunch of people who fight for freedom of expression and religion as long as your not a christian. In case anyone doesn't believe they (ACLU) aren't radicals, Hellen Keller was extremely radical (on the socialist side, which is understanable from her past of overcoming disabilities) and helped in the establishment of the ACLU. Any ideas? Further, are there any christians out there who are offended when corporations prohibit employees from wishing you a merry christmas?

[CroCivic91]

I'm not from USA and am not familiar with ACLU, but the whole "ban the red and green color" seems like a mix of redicilous and stupid thing to fight for. I know I would be annoyed if they tried convincing (or even talking to) me not to use such colors because whatever reasons they might give me. I'm cool with them fighting for their own right, and they can choose not to use red and green color (I know it's just an example, but I have nothing else to say instead of that example), but if they annoy me with it - I won't like it. Same with homosexuals/vegetarians/people-who-decide-not-to-drive-a-car... fine, be what you want, do what you want, but don't force me to do the same thing you're doing.

About the corporations thing... I'm a christian, but I wouldn't wish a merry christmas to anyone I'm not sure would enjoy me wishing him/her a merry christmas. But I have friends for who I'm sure they celebrate christmas, so I do wish them a merry christmas when it's appropriate. I sure do not mind other people not wishing me a merry christmas.

[ScottGem]

I was wondering what peoploe think about organizations like the ACLU trying to get christian icons removed from public schools. They go as far as saying that even the colors red and green count as icons for christmas and should not be used. It seems to me they are a bunch of people who fight for freedom of expression and religion as long as your not a christian. In case anyone doesn't believe they (ACLU) aren't radicals, Hellen Keller was extremely radical (on the socialist side, which is understanable from her past of overcoming disabilities) and helped in the establishment of the ACLU. Any ideas? Further, are there any christians out there who are offended when corporations prohibit employees from wishing you a merry christmas?

Clearly you are anti-liberal. So anything you post has to be viewed in that light.

I consider myself a liberal. But I also pride myself on keeping an open mind about things. Somethng I haven't noticed in the few of your posts that I've read.

The ACLU considers themselves the watchdog of american liberties. They zealously guard those liberties whenever and wherever they feel they are being weakened. Do they go too far at times? I think so. But I would much rather have them err on the side of preserving liberties then allowing them to be weakened.

Your characterization of them being anti-christian is typical conservative blowing smoke. When the ACLU fights against religious icons in schools they do so because of the constitutional mandate of the separation of church and state. NOT because of any anti-christian attitude. I've seen cases where menorahs on public grounds were also fought against. On the other hand, I've never heard of the ACLU protesting the Rockefeller Center Christmas Tree or shopping malls having Santa Clauses or other religious decorations. That's because such places are PRIVATE property so no constitutional violation exists.

My personal philosophy is that anyone should be able to do anything they want up to but NOT including interfering with the right of someone else to do what they want.

Scott<>

[fredg]

Hi,
I agree completely with your post and comments.
I am a Christian.
The original Mayflower Pact contains the words "God" (not Gods), and says the reason for establishing a new world is for getting away from "religious persecution", to establish a place with "religious freedom under God".
The Pledge of Allegiance states "under God", again not Gods, meaning only one.
The Supreme Court building, highest court in the land, has the 10 Commandments.
Over 2000 yrs ago, Jesus was persecuted, and died for it.
Over the past 30 years, or even more, the ACLU, and some other minorities, have fought to stop all religious activities of Christians; and to change the basic purpose of why America was originally founded. Any changes as to why this country was founded, will not stand.
The words "liberal", "left", and "right" have become highly overused by the Media, and others, such as one answer here, to the point that Christian morals and values are on trial again, as they were over 2000 yrs ago.
According to National Polls, the majority of Americans say they are Christians; but the ACLU and others have gained so much, that they now speak out against the majority. They have gained through the courts, making laws against Christians, to pray anywhere they choose, or to worship God anywhere they choose. It will change.
Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.
In some time to come, Christians will begin voting in hugh numbers, changing laws, changing Senators and Representatives, who vote against them. The time is coming that the "laws", imposed by a minority of non-christians, will be changed.
Parents, family members, others, who greatly oppose doing away with prayer anywhere, will be heard. It has already started.
It's a sad day when companies say "don't say Merry Christmas" at work, say "Happy Holidays"... you might offend someone.
There is a great problem when you continue to offend the majority, in the name of "law", by the ACLU and others. Laws will be changed in some time to come, to reflect the majority of Americans' beliefs in Christianity.
In the meantime, don't let up, don't "give in" to those who try telling you that
"you can't do this anymore". Their time will come.
History is a study of "cycles"; with changes made when the majority of Americans have finally had enough.

[fredg]

Hi, SSchultz,
I tried rating your post, as a great post, with great comments. However, I got the "you must wait before spreading around more ratings" popup.
I will try again later.

[NeedKarma]

Hi,

Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.

What about those kids who attend public school and who are not christians?

[ScottGem]

Hi,
I agree completely with your post and comments.
I am a Christian.
The original Mayflower Pact contains the words "God" (not Gods), and says the reason for establishing a new world is for getting away from "religious persecution", to establish a place with "religious freedom under God".
The Pledge of Allegiance states "under God", again not Gods, meaning only one.
The Supreme Court building, highest court in the land, has the 10 Commandments.
Over 2000 yrs ago, Jesus was persecuted, and died for it.
Over the past 30 years, or even more, the ACLU, and some other minorities, have fought to stop all religious activities of Christians; and to change the basic purpose of why America was originally founded. Any changes as to why this country was founded, will not stand.
The words "liberal", "left", and "right" have become highly overused by the Media, and others, such as one answer here, to the point that Christian morals and values are on trial again, as they were over 2000 yrs ago.
According to National Polls, the majority of Americans say they are Christians; but the ACLU and others have gained so much, that they now speak out against the majority. They have gained through the courts, making laws against Christians, to pray anywhere they choose, or to worship God anywhere they choose. It will change.
Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.
In some time to come, Christians will begin voting in hugh numbers, changing laws, changing Senators and Representatives, who vote against them. The time is coming that the "laws", imposed by a minority of non-christians, will be changed.
Parents, family members, others, who greatly oppose doing away with prayer anywhere, will be heard. It has already started.
It's a sad day when companies say "don't say Merry Christmas" at work, say "Happy Holidays".....you might offend someone.
There is a great problem when you continue to offend the majority, in the name of "law", by the ACLU and others. Laws will be changed in some time to come, to reflect the majority of Americans' beliefs in Christianity.
In the meantime, don't let up, don't "give in" to those who try telling you that
"you can't do this anymore". Their time will come.
History is a study of "cycles"; with changes made when the majority of Americans have finally had enough.

I wonder if you realize how contradictory and hypocritical this diatribe is? You start with talking about how the Pilgrims sought religious freedom. From there you go on to imply religious freedon is OK as long as you're a christian.

the ACLU is about upholding the Constitution NOT about presecuting religion. They are against the use of publicly owned facilities used to promote a SPECIFIC religion. Thjis is because of the separation of church and state mandated by the Constitution.

This display of religious bigotry is VERY offensive. You talk about "offending the majority", but you care nothing about offending the minority. That is bigotry!

You talk about "Christian morals and values are on trial". But where did those morals and values come from? They come from the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments. Why do you think its called the Judeo-Christian ethic? But you leave that part out. More bigotry!

If we have religious freedom (and we do) that means EVERYONE should have the right to worship they way they want. Jews, Moslems, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Druids, Wiccans etc. You cannot have religious freedom if you suppress ANY religion. By allowing a public entity, like a school or government building, to promote one religion over another is an affront to religious freedom and should be fought. Either EVERY religion needs to be represented or none. That is the stance of the ACLU and should be the stance of EVERY American who believes (as I do) in the principles this country was founded on!

Scott<>

[Curlyben]

I can't believe that I just read your bigoted myopic tirade.

Do you see everything in such black and white terms??

As Scott rightly said this is all down to your constitution separating church from state, get used to it. This kind of thing has been happening in the UK for years, but nobody pays it much attention any more.

[Chery]

I will not dissaprove of anyone's opinion here, as we all have a right to think of this subject as we wish and to save my sanity I intend to stay neutral, but have a few ideas (mine only).
Don't intend to be wishy-washy on this thread, but religious debates boggle me.

I believe each of us has a right to celebrate a religion if needed, and that religion and politics should not dictate what one does at home or at the workplace. In schools there should be a choice as the students are our future decision makers and need the experience of all thoughts and religious ideas to grow and find a way to get along, so why not give them the choice, instead of parents forcing their ideals down their throats. This planet is everyone's home. Now, should colors, books about christmas, and christmas decorations be banned everywhere?? "the season to be jolly" has been so commercialized that I don't even enjoy it anymore - that's my choice, but I don't mind others around me enjoying it. This has been a controversial issue for centuries, but - Gosh, lets grow up.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_1.gif

[ScottGem]

Your answer made me look at your location. Part of this has to do with American values that you may not fully understand.

[ScottGem]

I'm sorry Chery, but I have to disagree with some of your points, though I agree with others.

The key disagreement centers around bigotry. My Dictionary defines bigot as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices". Bigotry leads to hatred. I have no problem in anyone following the Christian religion (or Moslem, Hindu or whatever). It is when someone tries to tell me that my following a different religion is wrong that I balk. And that's what Fred has done here. I have long supported the fact that people are entitled to their opinions, but I draw the line on opinions that have no basis in fact and that promote intolerance and/or hatred against others.

Like you, I generally shy away from religious debates because they tend to be a no win situation. But when someone is as bigoted and hypocritical as has been displayed here I feel compelled to comment.

As for school children being given a choice, I agree with the American Founding Fathers about keeping church and state separate. Having a state religion or having government promote a certain religion leads to persecution. On the other hand, I believe in the power and pursuit of knowledge. I am not averse to the teaching of ALL religions as long as they all are represented. And that is the problem because it would be almost impossible for schools to cover them all. So it would be better for that to be handled in the home.

And that is the other point that people from outside of America (and many Americans) seem to miss. The problem is not the display of religious icons or other trapings of religion. The problem is WHERE its displayed. As I said, there is no problem with having Santa Claus in malls, putting up Xmas trees and other holiday decorations as long as they are on PRIVATELY owned properties. The objection is SOLELY to the use of public/government facilities for these displays and the objection is SOLELY related to the mandates of the US Constitution not to any prejudice for or against a particular religion.

Scott<>

[Chery]

Dear Scott, thanks for coming to my defense, but my dad was a soldier in the US Army, my stepdad also, and my ex-husband. As a child, going to Department of Defense schools, I prayed and pledged allegiance just like all other fellow students - it never bothered us, it bothered our parents which we did not understand then, but do now and it would have been better for parents to let us make up our own minds. I had a german mother, and that's why I stayed here to take care of her while she was sick. Now I'm stuck (cancer and other illnesses) in a country that has schools run by nuns and have a political faction called CDU (Christian Democratic Union):eek: , - I still feel that Religion and Politics have no right to combine and dictate to people on what to believe or what is politcally correct. The reason I stay (for the most part) out of religious debates is that I was raped by a priest, and the media is full of priests doing things to young boys that is irreparable psychologically, and don't believe any human who sins has the right to tell me what the scriptures of any religion state and is 'false' christianity to me. I'm a big girl and can make up my own mind as to what to believe - and I believe in human values and the ability to interpret the will of religions teaching goodness and love towards one another. I was babtised a Lutheran which teaches subversion of women, so I stepped out of the church and don't pay church taxes which exist here. This is also why I did not have my child babtised and gave her the option to choose the religion (if any) to believe and follow. She had to go to a german school for a few years, and they actually graded you on your 'religion class' on the report cards - which I thought was wrong and took her out and put her into an 'ethics' class, because here you had three choices, catholic, protestant, and ethics. I had a 'wild hair' one day and told them that I'd prefer a Jewish class - you should have seen the reaction. She is still an agnostic and doing quite well in her life without being told by a human what 'God' wants her do do. We believe in being good a kind to people of all denominations unless they give us reason not to be. I am just as afraid of terrorists and fanatics as the next person, but don't put all in one barrell. The history of religious wars and Spanish Inquisition in the past, and the on-going religious wars today are enough to make me really sick of it all. I also lived in the south, my daughter was born in Georgia, and experienced all the fire and brimstone teachings; have had Jahova Witness friends; Mormon and Jewish friends; and religion was one thing we discussed out of couriosity, but not argued about. People immigrated to the US to escape persecution of their convictions and not have other's values forced down their throats and wanted freedom of religion and speech, etc, but look where it's going? There are may groups and organizations who's main function is to help others but also teach morals and religion which is just fine, as long as they don't push it too far to those who don't want anything to do with it. Isn't that the basic freedom initially escaped to? - and now, just because it's not agreed to by some who are powerful enough to make changes, the same thing that was run from is beginning to grow and fester all over again. That's why I said what I said about 'growing up' in my last post. So, again, if people need a religion as something to use as a crutch, that's fine, just don't force others to follow if they don't want to, and stop killing people over it! Because if there is a God, I'm sure that's not what 'he' wanted humankind to to. Another reason to 'grow up' after the novelty of the pretty lights (in any religion) get old, you realize most of it is commercialism anyway, and this is something we can give our kids credit to learn to realize themselves without the church or politicians getting involved. Ok, getting off my soapbox now, hope I did not offend anyone as it's not my intention, just my opinion. Peace! - too bad my smiley did not work here.. :D http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_12_4.gif

[ScottGem]

Hi Chery,
First, let me applaud you for your bravery in talking about some of the trials you have experienced. Second, let me applaud you for what you have said here. I couldn't agree more with it.

I am jewish, but not a practicing one. I don't really believe in organized religion. In my opinion religion is a construction of mankind to explain certain mysteries. Its also a crutch mankind developed to allow it to deal with things like death, disasters, and other evils.

What I believe in is ethics. I believe in the Judeo-Christian ethic. I believe in the golden rule and I believe that everyone has the right to do what they want up to, but not including interfering with someone else's right to do the same.

My daughter is currently "trying to find herself". She is going to temple and to a church. I have supported her in this because she has the right to make her own decisions.

Scott<>

[NeedKarma]

Agree with your values.

[Chery]

I tried to rate, but got the 'spread it' message again.
I'm sure we are not the only ones who feel this way, but it's a shame that they cannot for some reason express their views. This is a very sensitive subject, but we should all be free to express our feelings, as long as we don't harm anyone else in doing so - Also right about the 'crutch' - and some are better than drugs and alcohol and crime. I do respect the need for emotional stability for everyone and can relate with their choices, to me Ethics come first.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_3_35.gifFound a new one, he's cute!

[cralmic]

With all of the X-Mas debates and being afraid to "step on anyone else's toes"... Why is it OK to ban speaking about god and X-mas in schools and telling our kids not to use red/green colors. But... it is totally acceptable to have pictures of witches etc and black/orange colors used in schools? What morals are we teaching our kids? People tend to go along with the halloween thing because it's fun and candy is involved. Look at the true meanings.

I love this country and hope (not certain it will) stay the same. Am I conservative... yes, but I love what our country was founded on. Does this mean we cannot change and adopt new ideas or ways of life. No! What it does mean is this country was founded with certain beliefs. Beliefs that were so strong that we made a constitution, which includes being fair to all people, but not to the point where we destroy our beautiful country because we don't want ot piss off anyone. If we continue on our current path, what will the US look like in 10-20 years? I hope being PC does not destroy our country. I hope my children and their children will be able to have the same beliefs as our fore-fathers.

To those coming to the US: Don't like it here or feel offended. You think that coming to the US means you have the same rights as all americans. Yes, you do. BUT I don't think it should be to the degree that you change our country... send me your phone number... I'll meet you and help you get on the nearest plane to another country (I'll even pay for the flight) Shoot, maybe can start a campaign, everyone loves to protest. Let's start a "go back to wherever you came from movement" Let's think about this for a second... If it was so great where you came from... why did you leave? Where in the world can you go where you have the freedom's and liberty's available to you in the states? (also the ability to slam our government and any group because we get a bug up our butt. Just be careful where you pick as they tend to kill extremests!

[ScottGem]

but we should all be free to express our feelings, as long as we don't harm anyone else in doing so

Chery,
Exactly! But opinions that are bigoted or intolerant DO harm people. They promote hatred and interfere with people's freedoms.

Scott<>

[ScottGem]

Some good points Cralmic. It does seem hypocritical to allow Halloween celebrations and not Xmas. However, even though Halloween does have it origins in religion, it has moved far away from them and has become very much a secular and fun celebration. Christmas, however commercialized and secular it gets still can't get far enough away from what it is, a celebration of the birth of Christ. So while I see your point, I also see enough of a difference to not make a big deal out of it.

One of the greatest strengths of this country is our freedoms. Its also one of our greatest weaknesses as well. Our enemies have often used our freedoms against us. But is the answer limiting those freedoms? For the most part I have to say no.

Scott<>

[fredg]

Hi,
In reply to the "nobody pays much attention to it anymore" by Curlyben, is just the type of thing that is happening to America. If left alone, changes eventually come to be accepted, unnoticed, until someone finally realizes that all changes are not good.
Removing the Ten Commandments stones, plaques, and statues from Court House lawn in many states, particularly in TN, has caused quite an uproar from the majority living in that area.
The main points here about the ACLU is that freedom of Worship is being taken away from the majority, in favor of the minority.
ScottGem's comments are normal, and he makes some good points, but still, the problem for the Majority still exists.
The Basic Fundament Right of Christians, guaranteed by our fore-fathers, is being taken away by the ACLU and other minority organizations. This is a fact!
And, it's what this debate is.

Fortunately, Tyson Food Company, largest meat producer in the world, has developed a system of Chaplains, Ministers, etc, for talking with employees, helping with employee personal problems, etc. Prayer is allowed inside this company, at certain times, certain gathering places. Their productivity has increased, and their profits are increasing, due to happier employees.

This great company's ideas are beginning to spread to other companies and corporations. Other corporations are now looking at their own policies and changes are beginning. They realize the importance of prayer, talking with ministers, and leads to their bottom line, more profit.
Everyone will begin to see some changes made in laws, upholding Christians' rights, because it's already started.

[Curlyben]

What I meant by "nobody pays attention" is that the government may come out with all these hair brained ideas which are then ignored by the general population.

The best one at the moment is the ban on smoking in pubs and fox hunting.
The policy has been so badly thought that there are MASSIVE loop holes which are being used to keep the status quo as it was.