[aj55]

So are 6 month old Lab has been sharing a bed with us for 2 weeks now. We have also started obedience classes about the same time. The issue is that he does not get off the bed when we ask him to. We literally have to pick him up off the bed. OK so we thought that was cute and all. This morning he was up and wanted to play and we wanted to sleep. We took him off the bed and gave him his toys at the side of the bed. He jumped up and we took him off. He jumped up again and this time I took him into the living room with his blanket and toys. I went to check on him a few minutes later as he has tendency to be on the couch which he is not allowed. He was sitting on the carpet but he heard me and followed me back into the bedroom. I then took him out again and this time shut the door. I then went to check on him 10-15 minutes later and found him on the couch and to MY surprise saw that he had Pooped and pee. We let him out for his morning pee about 30 minutes before. Is he telling us something. Is this a case of Alpha Male and if so what can we do to change this behaviour. Rest assured he isn't going to be sleeping with us, at least not at this age. The instructor told us to get him off with a treat so he learns the what we want to get from him. The training is all done with treats and hand signals and then words, slowly losing the treats and then just going with the words and hand signals. I know we started this mess and we want to correct it. Should we bring back a crate for bedtime or will that confuse him. How do we get him to sleep in our room but not on our bed. I have started luring him off the bed with the word "OFF" and a treat which is not working. If I say come he will come but that would require me to get out of bed every time and say come for him to get "OFF" the bed. He knows the word "OFF" and responds when he is not on the couch/bed. I will also add that we are having him neutered in a month when his obedience classes have finished. Any advice greatly appreciated. We don't want a problem child on our hands.

[labman]

I would go back to the crate. We don't even leave out 12 year old Lab loose at night. Yes he is challenging you for top dog status. The choice sleeping spots are a big deal to the dogs. The trainer isn't doing things quite the way I would. Still, it might be better to continue his way for now. One method applied consistently is more likely to work than doing it one way at class, and another way at home. Besides, the trainer can see what the dog is doing much better than you can describe it to me. No one method is best with all dogs either.

Labs can be difficult. I am afraid some people that are used to other dogs don't understand what often works, falls flat with intelligent, strong willed dogs. I think part of the reason the dog guide school is breeding many Lab/Golden crosses, is that the labs were too hard to work with. They had developed a line that performed flawlessly in the hands of the professional trainers. However, they couldn't train the people that need the dogs to handle them. A couple of years ago, they had an entire litter of German Shepherds fail because they were too soft. Never heard of a Lab being rejected as too soft.

[fredg]

Hi,
Be consistent, and stick to your guns.
The dog pooped and peed in the house cause he wants your attention, telling you he doesn't like how he is being treated, and he wants his way.
My suggestion is to not let him on the bed at all. Do as you are now, and put him down, telling him "no" firmly. It will take awhile, but he will get the message. He will also test you to the fullest, and he will want to see if he can "keep it up" longer than you can! Be persistent and don't give up.
Keep him off the couch, if this is what you want. Continue putting him back on the floor, telling him "no".
When he eventually learns that you are more persistent than he is, he will do what is expected of him.
It took us 3 months to get our housedog to go outside to use the bathroom, and almost gave up. All of a sudden, she started to go to the door when she had to "go"... surprised all of us. She would also, for a short time, remind us that she wasn't "happy" with some decisions, doing the same thing, peeing on the floor. She doesn't do that anymore, and it's been 12 yrs now, with no pee or poop in the house.
I do wish you the best, and hang in there.

[labman]

Those with a good background in dogs realize that you can't train some dogs not to do things when you aren't around. It is a foolish idea that a young Lab will stay off the sofa when you aren't there, no matter how you have trained it. No, it is back to the crate, obedience class, and maybe time to mature.

The "shut the puppy in a safe room" is a fallacy. Very few houses even have a
Safe room. How many of us have a room with a hard surfaced floor and nothing
Else? Most rooms have electrical cords to chew if nothing else. In addition
To destroying anything a bored puppy finds to chew, it may choke or have
Intestinal blockage from the pieces. I had a friend that left her dog in a
"safe" room. It ate a hole in the floor covering. The safe rooms fail to
Give the dog the comfort of the enclosed space their instinct requires. Nor
Do they restrict activity extending the time the dog can go without relieving
Itself.

I really wonder how much background Fred brings to the dog area. The limited experience with a dog or 2 of his own? How many books has he read and training sessions attended? Does he meet monthly with other people raising young Labs for training? Some of his answers could kill a dog.

[aj55]

Thanks for the replies, We went out and got a bed for Tiko yesterday and were quite surprised that he slept on it all night. He did jump up on the bed once but we told him to get off and he was good until the morning. During the day he is kept in a part of the kitchen with baby gates. He doesn't have a lot of room but we feel it is better than a crate for 8 hrs. He hasn't had any accidents and it seems to be working well. I don't expect him NOT to be on the couch if we leave him in the living room and leave the house. However if we are at home and in another room, when we are not watching him, I do expect him NOT to be on the couch. I hope that made sense. We will monitor the situation and see how Tiko is responding.

[aj55]

Ongoing saga continues... Yesterday we basically started from scratch with Tiko. We put him on his training collar and had him on leash everywhere we went including the house and when we let him out to go pee (we had been letting him out to go do his business but were finding he wasn't coming back until he felt like it or we had to go an. We took away all his toys and rewarded him with them when he responded to a command instead of them being everywhere in the house and him having access to them whenever he chooses. He looked very confused which was expected. We were told the next week would be the hardest as we have changed his routine. We have also brought back a crate for him to be in when we are at work during the day (the biggest one so he has room to move around/stretch). Is there anything else we should be doing to get the behaviour we want?

[labman]

There are a whole range of things you can do to remind him who is top dog. The withholding the toys until he obeys a command is good. A big one is the food dish. It doesn't hit the floor until after his butt does. It can be done. The first meal or 2 may take 10 minutes. You go through the door first. If he is in the way, he moves, you don't step over or go around. Many more in any good book.

At his age, the bigger the crate, the better. Some people claim too large of a crate makes housebreaking harder. I do have a smaller crate I use with new puppies, but never saw a problem with the large one. Of course many dogs are different.

[aj55]

The food dish isn't a problem,since we have had him he has always had to sit before he got his food. We actually have him sit and then the food goes to the floor then he waits for us to say it is OK to eat. Usually 5-7 seconds. Can I actually feed him after we eat which would also be after his 1+ hour walk. We have been coming home feeding him right away then waiting 20 minutes and then taking him on his walk. Then we come home and eat dinner ourselves. Is there going to be a problem if we feed him after his walk in the evening (too hyper etc. etc. etc.) Can you recommend some books for us to read. When do you suggest a private session with a trainer. I know we are not there yet but was wondering if there is a time limit. We want to avoid that option as it is very costly.

[labman]

Top dogs eat first. This can be very confusing to the dog when the mother feeds the kids before she eats. Surely I have mentioned http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/

This is from a thread I started on another forum:
''I'm a big fan of "The other End of the Leash" and most of the other books Patricia McConnell has written. I also own many of her booklets and pamplets. A good book one of my trainers recommenced for me was Dogs are from Neptune by Jean Donalson, (Author of the Culture Clash, also an Awesome book)... "Click for Joy" by Karen Pryor is also good. ''

I haven't read any of those. I know somebody that really knew what she was doing liked The Culture Clash. Dogs are different from people. One big difference is the way somebody is in charge, either you, or the dog.

The best thing I have ever read is the manual the dog guide school give us puppy raisers. Unfortunately, it is not available to the public.

[aj55]

Hello all, just thought I would give an update on Tiko. He was quite confused the first couple days as he did not get everything he wanted when he wanted. He has come around very nicely and is sleeping in his own bed and does not even look at the couch as something to sit on. He does periodically jump on the bed but gets off right away when he is told too. We have been keeping him on a leash for all his walks until he knows the rules. I must say I am quite surprosed at how quickly he came to understand what is acceptable and what isn't. I guess being consistent really is the key. We are currently enrolled in obedience classes and I must say he is learning lots. One thing he is doing is jumping on people when they say hi and he is lunging at other dogs when on walks. The people thing we got down as he does not get anything unless he sits and waits to be petted. We have to stand on his leash so if he tries to jump he cant. With dogs it's a little different because he sits and then I say play nice or gentle and he just lunges. He wants to play but scares the crap out of these dogs as he doesn't know how strong he is. Any suggestions on getting him to play nice is appreciated.

[labman]

Glad to hear things are mostly going well. Most young dogs don't like to play nice. You may have to keep him away from older dogs and find some younger ones his size where they can enjoy roughhousing.

[sassycee]

So are 6 month old Lab has been sharing a bed with us for 2 weeks now. We have also started obedience classes about the same time. The issue is that he does not get off the bed when we ask him to. We literally have to pick him up off the bed. OK so we thought that was cute and all. This morning he was up and wanted to play and we wanted to sleep. We took him off the bed and gave him his toys at the side of the bed. He jumped up and we took him off. He jumped up again and this time i took him into the living room with his blanket and toys. I went to check on him a few minutes later as he has tendancy to be on the couch which he is not allowed. He was sitting on the carpet but he heard me and followed me back into the bedroom. I then took him out again and this time shut the door. I then went to check on him 10-15 minutes later and found him on the couch and to MY surprise saw that he had Pooped and pee. We let him out for his morning pee about 30 minutes before. Is he telling us something. Is this a case of Alpha Male and if so what can we do to change this behaviour. Rest assured he isnt going to be sleeping with us, atleast not at this age. The instructor told us to get him off with a treat so he learns the what we want to get from him. The training is all done with treats and hand signals and then words, slowly losing the treats and then just going with the words and hand signals. I know we started this mess and we want to correct it. Should we bring back a crate for bedtime or will that confuse him. How do we get him to sleep in our room but not on our bed. I have started luring him off the bed witht he word "OFF" and a treat which is not working. If i say come he will come but that would require me to get out of bed everytime and say come for him to get "OFF" the bed. He knows the word "OFF" and responds when he is not on the couch/bed. I will also add that we are having him neutered in a month when his obedience classes have finished. Any advice greatly appreciated. We dont want a problem child on our hands.

If you did not want him on the bed you should have never started. You like a couple if you give me all your attention at first and take it back it would hurt their feeling. So don't start anything you do not intend to keep up