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dkjw424 · Oct 18, 2005, 10:11 AM

I have seen quite a few questions regarding closet flanges but not exactly what I have going on.

The toilet in my first floor bathroom has been leaking from the base so I decided to take the opportunity to update the entire bathroom. After removing the toilet I was shocked to find no closet flange. Since there was no closet flange and the wax ring I am assuming made minimal contact with the waste pipe the surrounding subfloor has rotted in an area of about 1.5 sq. ft.
(I am not well versed in plumbing so please pardon any details I might miss.)
The waste pipe is metal and has a lip to it but no area for bolts to fit through to attach the toilet, the ID is approximately 4". My plan is to cut out the rotted subfloor and replace that I will then install plywood over the entire subfloor in the bathroom. After that I am installing a laminate flooring and will be planning on using an Oatey 4" Twist-N-Set Flange to get the closet flange up to the final flooring height.

Is there anything I missed or should be taking into consideration or am I going about this totally in the wrong manner?

I appreciate any help.

Thanks,

Dan

speedball1 · Oct 18, 2005, 10:45 AM

First of all I need to know the material of the pipe that has a lip. If it's lead do not change anyrhing and get back to me. I'll wait on your reply. Tom

dkjw424 · Oct 19, 2005, 06:58 AM

Tom,
How can I be sure what material it is?

Thanks,

Dan

speedball1 · Oct 19, 2005, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by dkjw424

Tom,
How can I be sure what material it is?

Thanks,

Dan

Scrape it with a kinfe. If its hard it's cast iron but if it's soft it's lead. My bets on lead and if it is let me give you instructions on how to set a toilet on a lead closet bend. Tom

dkjw424 · Oct 19, 2005, 07:28 AM

Tom,
From the way you described the difference I can 99.9% guarantee that it is lead. The reason I say this is when I was clearing out the rotted floor last night I noticed that the lip was a bit out of shape and it easily went back to form with a few light taps with a hammer.

I will wait on your instructions.

Thanks,

Dan

speedball1 · Oct 20, 2005, 06:59 AM

Good morning Dan,

You live in a older house that still uses lead for drainage. The problem with lead is that it's soft and a expanding closet flange will tear through the wall of the pipe causing yet more problems.
You are faced with two options.
(1) you can remove all the lead drainage back the cast iron and then convert to PVC ---or---
(2) You can use what you have. You're in luck, you caught a old time plumber that has worked with lead closet bends.
First off closet flanges aren't necessary. All they do is secure the bowl to, the floor. Back then we used wood screw closet bolts to hold the bowl down and a ring of plumbers putty for a seal.
You will use the same wood screw closet bolts but in place of plumbers putty you will use a wax seal with a attached funnel. You need have no fears about using this method, It's worked great over the years.
Let me know what you decide. Regards, Tom

dkjw424 · Oct 20, 2005, 08:40 AM

Tom,
My concern is the way the toilet was originally installed is along the lines of the second option you posed and it leaked horribly. But then again there was no funnel on the wax ring to lead the water into the sewer pipe.

I have replaced the rotted subfloor around the sewer pipe and the pipe is above the subfloor by about 1/2". I plan on laying an additional 1/2" plywood over the entire subfloor and then install a laminate floor on top of that.

Will your second option, of installing the wax ring with the funnel, still work considering the added height of the final floor? It sound like the simplest option and from your experience, it works.

How difficult is removing the lead pipe back to the cast iron and replacing with PVC?

speedball1 · Oct 20, 2005, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by dkjw424

Will your second option, of installing the wax ring with the funnel, still work considering the added height of the final floor? It sound like the simplest option and from your experience, it works.
How difficult is removing the lead pipe back to the cast iron and replacing with PVC?

Yes, it will work if the funnel extends below the top of the lead closet bend. (Get a wax ring with a longer funnel then the one I have shown.)
Would it be possible to raise the closet bend a little higher so that the you can flare a lip over the new floor? Careful! The lead is old and will tear easily.

Removing the lead pipes back to the cast Iron, converting to PVC and redoing the closet stub up is a job for a plumber unless you have plumbing skills. Good luck, Tom

dkjw424 · Oct 20, 2005, 09:30 AM

The pipe seems to be very firm in place regarding the height but I will check to see if there is any play in it.
If I can raise it up, obviously I should brace it from the bottom so the lip of the lead pipe is not taking too much weight considering the softness of the metal. Should the lip of the lead flange be flush with the final floor or a bit above to ensure a good seal?

Thanks,

Dan

speedball1 · Oct 20, 2005, 11:22 AM

Hi Dan,

if you can raise it a bit you can build a "cradle" out of 2 X 4s to steady it. The best would be if you could form a lip on top of the finished floor but not necessary if the funnel extends below the top of the lead closetbend.
Set the bowl directly over the opening and then mark the closet bolt holes. The wood screw will attach to the floor on the markings and be your guide for placing the bowl. More questions? Just ask! Tom

dkjw424 · Oct 20, 2005, 11:33 AM

One other thing Tom.
I have seen the FluidMaster Wax-Free bowl Gasket, will this work for my situation if I install a flange on the final floor?

If I am envisioning this correctly. The Gasket will fit onto the flange and then the sleeve of the gasket will extend into the closet elbow.

Does that sound right?

Thanks Tom. You have been more helpful than you could possibly imagine.

speedball1 · Oct 20, 2005, 03:55 PM

Hi Dan

I'd be happier if I could pull up the installation instructions but if that's a funnel I see it should work. Cheers, tom

dkjw424 · Oct 20, 2005, 06:13 PM

That's the one Tom.

Here are the installation instructions.

Fluidmaster Instructions

I stopped at the lumber yard and picked up 1/2" plywood to go on top of the sub floor, with that and then the laminate floor on top of it there will be only a minor gap from the final floor height to the top of the closet elbow. So I am going to invesitgate both the wax ring with the horn and also the fluidmaster gasket.

Tom I grealty appreciate all of your help and will let you know how everything comes out.

Thanks Again,

Dan