[ALZ1]

Bigg oops I thought I double posted the question some how and edited/lost the origonal

Dangit will try to recompose it

Issue of dimming lights, brightening of lights, constant flickering. All these would be a lot worse of a flicker when it is night time or windy out, but still quite often in daytime.


With all my breakers and main breaker off, I still get a current reading on the water pipe bond and the main neutral feed to my breaker panel.

I have called electricians to check out my house, but after explanation of my issues and the neighbors that do not call it in, they explain that even if they determine it is not in my home that any little thing they find and put in a report could used to blame it on my home.





Thanks
ALZ1

[Stratmando]

Are you measuring volts or amps? If a neutral is open, the load will not go to ground.
If all breakers are off, the neutral will draw Zero.
What are you measuring between?

[tkrussell]

The results of your amp measuring seems to indicate that your neutral is carrying current from the utility system flowing to your grounding electrode.

The ground at the utility transformer may not be sufficient. Or there is current flowing through their neutral from another customer seeking ground return.

Contact the utility and ask for a troubleshooter technician to be sent. Once he is there show him the current flow with your main off. With your main off, there should be zero amps flowing in all of your system, hots, neutral, and at the grounding electrode conductor connection at the water line.

If you get no response or they shrugged it off, contact the local electrical inspector and/or the Public Utilities Commission for your state.

[ALZ1]

Are you measuring volts or amps? If a neutral is open, the load will not go to ground.
If all breakers are off, the neutral will draw Zero.
What are you measuring between?

Amps with a true rms meter where main feeds come into the panel.

[ALZ1]

The results of your amp measuring seems to indicate that your neutral is carrying current from the utility system flowing to your grounding electrode.

The ground at the utility transformer may not be sufficient. Or there is current flowing thru their neutral from another customer seeking ground return..

They just put in this pole and xformer.

Most of our communication has been over the phone, but now I have written a letter to email addressing the ongoing problem.


Thanks
ALZ1

[Stratmando]

The neutral with all breakers off, still should not have amps, and more likely not the Electric Company.
A circuit has to be complete to draw power, with breakers off circuit to neutral is open.
Is you neutral bonded to ground in panel.
Also, with breakers on, measure current of both hots, neutral, and ground.
The neutral should draw the difference of the 2 hots. The ground should be Zero,
If ground is drawing current. Turn off breakers 1 by 1 to determine equipment or circuit leaking to ground.
Are you using clamp on ampmeter around neutral in main panel?

[tkrussell]

Strat, with the main off, correct there should be no current flow. So if it is "more likely not the Electric Company.", where is the current coming from?

[ALZ1]

The neutral with all breakers off, still should not have amps, and more likely not the Electric Company.
A circuit has to be complete to draw power, with breakers off circuit to neutral is open.
Is you neutral bonded to ground in panel.
also, with breakers on, measure current of both hots, neutral, and ground.
The neutral should draw the difference of the 2 hots. the ground should be Zero,
If ground is drawing current. turn off breakers 1 by 1 to determine equipment or circuit leaking to ground.
Are you using clamp on ampmeter around neutral in main panel?

Yes


Neutral is bonded to grounding electrode in main panel, I have no sub panels. The lug is one unit with 2 holes in it(just in case you were wondering)



With all curit breakers off and main breaker off neutral is not 0. Both Hots do read 0.

[tkrussell]

Alz1, your heading states 'Flickering Lights" but no mention of flickering lights in your question. Explain further, this can be caused by a loose neutral connection, anywhere from the utility lines through to your panel. Loose neutral condition can cause abnormal voltages to be impressed on appliances. Lamps, etc. and cause considerable damage.

[tkrussell]

This is problem caused by the utility, and needs to be traced and corrected by the utility.

[ALZ1]

Alz1, your heading states 'Flickering Lights" but no mention of flickering lights in your question. Explain further, this can be caused by a loose neutral connection, anywhere from the utility lines thru to your panel. Loose neutral condition can cause abnormal voltages to be impressed on appliances. lamps, etc. and cause considerable damage.

I have checked each circuit nuetral to ground bus, with all breakers off, no continuity, infinate ohms. Poco has tighten and re-tightend meter base, If I tighten my panel connections any more I'll end up stipping out the threads.

Aside from the pretty much continuous flickering enough to make on crazy.

Part of my letter to poco:

These have been my symptoms in the last year:

Weird artifacts on CRT monitor, 2 toasted monitors, lcd monitors have shadows that come and go, have lost two hard drives in 1 yr, 1 power supply, 2 different cable modems and routers, cable DVR reboots itself, weird buzz hum lines on DVR recordings, phone losing dial tone, phone has static, stove clock flashing when other clocks without backup battery are not, sometimes my appliances sound strange, newer toaster buzzes,
Dryer shuts off before it is dry, (gas) microwave heats the same cup of water differently from time to time. Just in case you are wondering, my interconnecting TV and PC components are on their own circuits and not on opposites legs.

Neighbors ADT mysterously started working again after second transformer was put in. I have seen their lights flicker outside. Motion sensor light come on when nothing is there.
Their phone line has gone down more than mine, street light goes out in the middle of the night then comes back on, one had outlets showing blackening by prongs after 3 yrs.

I also understand now why some people may not report anything because of the response they may get when they do. Being told by the Power company, well you have 120v what's the problem, connections all look good, it must be in your house, etc...

ALZ

[tkrussell]

I do not understand

"I have checked each circuit nuetral to ground bus, with all breakers off, no continuity, infinate ohms. "

Do you mean zero ohms or no ohms? You should see almost zero ohms, as the neutral and equipment ground is connected at the panel containing the main breaker.

How relevant is that anyway?

How are you measuring amps?

I went back and see you edtied your original question. Flicjkering lights is a loose connection, could be a hot or a neutral for that circuit.

Brightening lights is an indication of a loose Shared neutral, which can be one neutral for two branch circuits, usually a 3 wire cable with black, red, and white leaving the panel.

Can also be the utility system neutral, which is shared between the two hot utility feeders to your meter. Or can be the system neutral in the meter or panelboard.

With current flow in the grounding conductor at the water meter, (I assume you are using a clamp on amprobe), with your Main breaker off, tells me current is flowing from the utility neutral and flowing through the grounding electrode conductor to ground, at the water line.

This can be due to a loose neutral elsewhere in the utility system, not necessarily any of the connections for your home, but next door, down the street, etc.

Ask the utility and/or your electrician to measure the current flow in the main system neutral to your home, ahead of your meter, and with your main off.

There should be zero amp flow. If there is a flow, and these guys that see this current flow don't understand, then tell them to find someone that does get it.

Be sure to hire a good troubleshooting service electrician. If you can't find one let me know I can find one in your area.

You need to be persistent in getting the flickering lights and brightening to stop. The brightening of lamps is any indication of the high abnormal voltages being delivered to your appliances, etc, and as you already mention, can be damaged. I have seen this voltage get so high that electrical devices can get so hot they burst into flames. Not trying to scare you but share my experience with this condition.

From this point on, cc any written documentation between you and the utility with the Public Utilities Commission, and be sure the utility knows that.

[ALZ1]

I do not understand

"I have checked each circuit nuetral to ground bus, with all breakers off, no continuity, infinate ohms. "

Disconnected circuit neutral from buss at panel and tested to make sure there were not any connection between neutral and ground.

How relevant is that anyway?

to eliminate that there were no unintended connections to ground.

How are you measuring amps?

With an ideal 61-736
IDEAL INDUSTRIES - Testers & Meters

I went back and see you edtied your original question. Flicjkering lights is a loose connection, could be a hot or a neutral for that circuit.

it affects all lighted circuits at different points and time.

Brightening lights is an indication of a loose Shared neutral, which can be one neutral for two branch circuits, usually a 3 wire cable with black, red, and white leaving the panel.

have none of these.

Can also be the utility system neutral, which is shared between the two hot utility feeders to your meter. Or can be the system neutral in the meter or panelboard.

Everything from a new panel board to pole has been replaced, including the meter to a new digital one.

Be sure to hire a good troubleshooting service electrician. If you can't find one let me know I can find one in your area.

I have called electricians to check out my house, but after explanation of my issues and the neighbors that do not call it in, they explain that even if they determine it is not in my home that any little thing they find and put in a report power company could use to blame it on my home. How I do not know, that is just what one of them told me. If you know of one in the omaha NE area that also works in Iowa.

Not trying to scare you but share my experience with this condition.

There has been an increase in ele related fires in our area since there was a fire (reported in news paper) at the power company plant. I went to a friends house on the other side of town and noticed flickering lights. Went home grabbed meter and a current reading was on her copper pipe where it bonds to Electrical ground also.
Told her she needs to call someone and report it. Every three minutes or so. No AC kicking on.

From this point on, cc any written documentation between you and the utility with the Public Utilities Commission, and be sure the utility knows that.

I will send this email, but I don't think the utilities commissions has an email address. May have to snail mail it.



I even got a slight tingle from the kitchen sink faucet. Which really blows my mind knowing I have no ele wires touching around the sink, no garbage disposal. Just the copper water pipes. All new wire and bonding connections, no splicing for the ground. Solid #6 I believe it is.

Bizarre
Thanks
ALZ1

[tkrussell]

Excellent response.


Here are a few web sites that should help:
Nebraska State Electrical Board Home Page

Nebraska Energy Office

Nebraska Public Power District - Always there when you need us

So the neighbors are having similar problems? Dead give away that the utility is the problem.

I am having a problem trying to find your utility to see their requirements, complaint process, etc. Poco you say? Where are you located? Nebraska or Iowa?

To find a good service contractor, look here and chose your state and city:
TEGG - TEGG Service Contractor Network - The industry leader in electrical preventative maintance.

Good meter you are using. Once you disconnect the ground from the neutral, the current flow stops?

[ALZ1]

So the neighbors are having similar problems? Dead give away that the utility is the problem.

I finally convinced one with dimming that it is not normal. That if he does not tell them they will just think I am a crazy women with too much time on my hands... no no, just that they will not take me seriously and think it is just my home.

One, the women noticed dimming flickering lights, the husband turned around after saying he noticed odd things, to saying "nope we aren't having ele problems." and chaged his story.

One that was hit by lightning some yrs ago is a rental not being rented.
Some are never home enough to notice.

I am having a problem trying to find your utility to see their requirements, complaint process, etc. Poco you say? Where are you located? Nebraska or Iowa?

Power Company Mid American energy. Iowa, most people know where omaha is more readily, compared to council bluffs which is across the river.

Good meter you are using. Once you disconnect the ground from the neutral, the current flow stops?

When I disconnect the bond between the grounding wire and the water pipe where it enters my home. I hate messing with connections where it bonds at the panel if I don't have to.

No, it is like it comes in on the water piping and splits and spreads in different directions on my water pipes. I have not checked to see where it tries to go on my panel, It is not the same, readings are different all over the place.. I have noticed the wood is darker in those immediate areas. Also read something some where how it will try to travel in wood rafters and cause drying of wood and can start fires.




Thanks
ALZ1

[ALZ1]

To find a good service contractor, look here and chose your state and city:
TEGG - TEGG Service Contractor Network - The industry leader in electrical preventative maintance.

Closest is Lenexa, KS 3hrs drive one way... ouch.

[Stratmando]

Unless I am interpreteting differently, and missed something, when original post said at Main Panel, I thought he meant Main Breaker Panel in house with the Breakers, I was assuming 4 conductors, and in that panel the neutral is isolated from ground, and if that the case , then with the breakers off, there should be ZERO amps, because there is no circuit(Hots removed).
I wonder if a ground didn't get blown open from Lightning. Should not get strange readings.
Verify continuity/integrity of grounds, or run New one.
Like Tk was saying, neutral can cause bright or dimming of lights.
I would verify Tightness of all connections, especially neutrals. Measure from start to breakers and see where you are lacking. TK, I still don't know if clamp on amp reading, and where exactly. Does it make your electric meter move?
If you are getting shocked from sink. First I would see when shocking stops. Turn off breakers one by one until voltage gone. This is a sign of ground problem or live wire hitting ground.

[ALZ1]

Unless I am interpreteting differently, and missed something, when original post said at Main Panel, I thought he meant Main Breaker Panel in house with the Breakers,

yes I am talking about main breaker panel (I have no other panels)

I was assuming 4 conductors, and in that panel the neutral is isolated from ground, and if that the case , then with the breakers off, there should be ZERO amps, because there is no circuit(Hots removed).

Not a good thing to assume, When you use the word "isolated" I think sub panel where they are isolated from each other, 4 wire run to sub panel. Utility is 3 wire.

I wonder if a ground didn't get blown open from Lightning. Should not get strange readings.
Verify continuity/integrity of grounds, or run New one.

I am not the one that got hit by lightning I was referring to the neighbors around me. Three different paragraphs three different neighbors.

I still don't know if clamp on amp reading, and where exactly. Does it make your electric meter move?

here is a pic similar to mine
On the neutral lug it is all one fabricated piece with 2 points where the neutral connects in one hole, and ground connects in the other. (the middle #2) 2 hots on outer #2



I am a she not a he.
And if every one keeps over tightening the neutral bus I really won't have any connection left on 14-gauge wires. I redid them all when I tested them. Snip, strip, tight. Same outcome. That is why they have torque specs isn't it...

[Stratmando]

Hey, you're good, You sound very knowlegable. If neutrals are tight, leave alone.
That Center Lug(Neutral), sounds like it connects to neutral buss on both sides of panel, and should not have Green screw Bonding to Panel Box. Needs to stay isolated. The Grounds needs a separate ground bar, and should be screwed to back of panel. Photo hard to see if 2 ground bars are present. If not you will need one. The Ground and Neutral only connect at Service.
If this is the case, and with all breakers off, the neutral has no way to be part of a circuit,
And should not draw current. And you are using the Clamp On Ampmeter around White in Panel? When tightening Neutral in panel, have power off. Also while off, physically move wire to check tightness. Sometimes a screw will go tight, but not be tight on screw.
With meter set to volts, measure between lug, and exposed wire connecting to lug.
Any voltage will expose bad connection. Hang in there.

[tkrussell]

So, Alz1, where are we at with this? Are you all set? Do you have any other questions?

You are correct, 3 wire utility to the main breaker, then4 wire to the panel. The picture you show does not have a main, therefore the neutral is not be bonded to the metal can of the panel, keeping it separate form the equipment ground. I see there are two equipment ground bars.

Also, correct, on the tightening, tighten to torque specs and stop, no more tightening. Why is the #14 getting too short? You don't need to cut wire off to re-tighten.

Do you have the utility and electrician checking this?

Please let us know how this all works out. Do not hesitate to post any additional questions.