[Morganite]

Dear Friends,

What do you believe to be the date of the Exodus of Israel from Egypt, and why do you choose that date over other dates?


MORGANITE

[Bobbye]

The Date of The Exodus

"The actual date of the Exodus, though a difficult problem, is also an important one for understanding the background of the book.

"Critical scholars usually date the Exodus around 1280 B.C. in the reign of Rameses II. But the chronology of the Book of Judges, plus the explicit statement of I Kings 6:1, calls for 1447 B.C. as the correct date.

"Biblical chronology dates the arrival of Joseph in Egypt as a slave around 1900 B.C., during the height of the Middle Kingdom. He died about 1806 B.C., and the new king "who knew not Joseph" ((1:8) must have been the first Hyksos invader of Egypt(about 1730 b.C.).

These Hyksos invaders were less numerous than the Hebrews at that time, and had cause to fear that they might ally themselves with thenative Egyptians. After the Hyksos were driven out (c.1580 B.C.), the Egyptians of the powerful Eighteenth Dynasty continued to oppress the Hebrews.

"Moses was born in 1527 B.C. and was raised by Hatshepsut, daughter of Thutmosis I and later, a Pharaoh-Queen (1501-1480).

"Thutmosis III (1480-1447), the mighty "Napoleon of Egypt," was the Pharaoh of the Oppression, and his son Amenhotep II (1447-1425) was the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

"Not only do the Biblical events fit perfectly into this portion of Egyptian history, but also it must be said that the Biblical account cannot be harmonized with theview that the Exodus occurred around 1280 B.C. The main argument in support of this view is that the store city (treasure city) of Raamses (1:1) could only have been built during the reign of Raamses II (1290-1224 B.C.). But if this be so, then the birth of Moses must be dated later than this to allow for the lengthy events of 1:12-22, and the Exodus could not be dated until 80 years after that (7:7). This would allow less than a century between the Exodus and the reign of Saul.

"Such a view is utterly unnecessary, however, for evidence has been discovered that pharaohs of the Nineteenth Dynasty used names employed by the Hyksos, and even worshipped gods ornored by the Hyksos, so that Hyksos kings could have built a city named Raamses."
Source: "The Date of the Exodus," Bulletin of the Evangelical Theological Society, Summer, 1960. Reported in "The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary," Zondervan Pub. House; Grand Rapids, Michigan; 1963.
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Per Bobbye: I take exception to this statement:
"...the new king "who knew not Joseph" ((1:8) must have been the first Hyksos invader of Egypt(about 1730 B.C.).

According to some commentaries, the new king "who knew not Joseph" was actually Egyptian, AS THE EGYPTIANS DEPOSED THE HYKSOS KINGS (foreigners who declared themselves kings, as well as a dynasty; non-Egyptian) AFTER THE DEATH OF JOSEPH. THUS, HE WAS NO LONGER CONSIDERED A NATIONAL HERO. NO ONE IN POWER CONSIDERED HIS HISTORY -- THUS ALLOWING FOR HIS BONES TO BE REMOVED, WHICH REMOVAL WAS FORBIDDEN AT HIS DEATH, DUE TO HIS NATIONAL STATUS.

My point:
(1) Hyksos kings (as stated above in quote) invaded Egypt about 1730 B.C.
They were in power when Joseph became "prime minister."
(2) The Hyksos kings were overthrown by the Egyptians after the death of Joseph.

The sequence I support reverses the purpose of the phrase "...and knew not Joseph." This followed Joseph's reign, rather than preceding it -- supported by the statement above:i.e. "...for evidence has been discovered that pharaohs of the Nineteenth Dynasty used names employed by the Hyksos, and even worshipped gods honored by the Hyksos, so that Hyksos kings could have built a city named Raamses."

Bobbye

[Morganite]

The Date of The Exodus

"The actual date of the Exodus, though a difficult problem, is also an important one for understanding the background of the book.

"Critical scholars usually date the Exodus around 1280 B.C. in the reign of Rameses II. But the chronology of the Book of Judges, plus the explicit statement of I Kings 6:1, calls for 1447 B.C. as the correct date.

Bobbye

Attempts to date the Exodus are problematic because the Bible provides two conflicting times of when the event took place. Kings 6:1 clearly dates the Exodus to 480 years before the founding of Jerusalem's temple by King Solomon.

This would put the date of the Exodus at around 1450 BC, as you say, which has long been believed by Christians as the date of the Exodus.

However, in Exodus 1:11, it is recorded that Pharaoh put the enslaved Hebrews to work on two "store-cities" called Pthom and Raamses.

Scholars cannot not agree on the location of Pthom, although there is general agreement that Raamses is a Hebrew version of the Egyptian name Ramesses, and as is thought to be Egyptian Piramesses, the Delta capital built by Ramesses II. If that is correct, the Children of Israel cannot have left before the 13th Century BC.

Could the 480 years given in Kings be symbolic? Was it arrived at by adding shorter periods that overlapped, such as those in Judges?

Was there was an existing city that Ramesses II built upon to make Piramesses, and the Hebrews worked on this earlier city. The rendering of Raamses could have therefore been a later update of the original city's name.

Merenptah, along with his father, Ramesses II, or both are often given credit as being the Pharaoh of the Biblical Exodus, because of an inscription from the reign of Merenptah, who succeeded Ramesses II.

It has been suggested that the event of the Exodus should not be dated much later than the middle of the 13th Century BC. In the last lines of this inscription, carved on a stela set up to commemorate Merenptah's victory over the Libyans in his fifth year on the throne (about 1209 or 1208 BC), the king boasts of his victories over various peoples and places in Syria-Palestine.

Here, he claims, with the exaggeration expected on royal inscriptions, that "Israel is desolate, and has no seed.”

Merenptah's army had obviously fought some part of Israel and beaten them roundly. According to this historical item, the Israelites were already in Canaan although it does not point to the date of their arrival. For this reason, most scholars agree that the Exodus was completed by the 13th Century BC, and most date at circa 1250 BC, which seems reasonable.

The Bible tells us that Moses belonged to a large group of Semitic settlers whose ancestors had arrived in Egypt from the land of Canaan. This rings very true, for archaeological evidence shows that such groups of people from Canaan were settling in parts of the Eastern Delta from around the middle of Egypt's 12th Dynasty.

Evidence has been unearthed, for example at Tell el-Dab'a in the Delta, that these newcomers were of mixed origin, including pastoral nomads like the Hebrews described in Genesis 47:1-11. Though we cannot positively identify Israel's ancestors in Egypt, it is intriguing to note that during the 17th century BC the site of Tell el-Dab'a was developed as the Hyksos capital known as Avaris, and in the 13th century BC, and was absorbed by the sprawling city of Piramesse.

It should also be noted that the route chosen by the escaping Israelites, from Piramesse to Tjeku (biblical Succoth: Exodus 12:37) and eastwards, was precisely the same that was used by two escaping slaves of the late 13th century BC, as reported in Papyrus Anastasi V.




MORGANITE


:)

[SSchultz0956]

If you look at a primary source (an original source) you'll see that the biblical chronology of this is off. The annals of Rameses II (1304-1237 BC) specify that Semitic people were settled in the land of Goshen. It is further explained that they went there from Canaan for want of food. But why should Rameses' scribes mention this settlement at Goshen? According to standard Bible chronology the Hebrews went to Egypt some three centuries before the time of Rameses, and made their Exodus in about 1491 BC, long before he came to the throne. So, by virtue of this first-hand scribal record, the standard Bible chronology as generally promotes is seen to be incorrect.

Source (for Morganite): Laurence Gardner, "Bloodline of the Holy Grail"

The major difference b/w this and the bible(technically a primary source) is that the bible has too many versions and has been tampered with too much. Allowing for more mistakes. Also, the preophets that recorded in the bible were also not perfect and could have easily mistaken a date. There are a variety of examples of that throughout the bible. The annals of Ramses II has not had such a process. ( I'm not refuting the truthfulness nor sacredness of the bible.) I agree with Morganite, and have always thought Moses to have been born in 1370 and the exodus from Egypt in 1290. At least we know for sure that the exodus occurred 80 years after Moses' birth.

[Morganite]

If you look at a primary source (an original source) you'll see that the biblical chronology of this is off. The annals of Rameses II (1304-1237 BC) specify that Semitic people were settled in the land of Goshen. It is further explained that they went there from Canaan for want of food. But why should Rameses' scribes mention this settlement at Goshen? According to standard Bible chronology the Hebrews went to Egypt some three centuries before the time of Rameses, and made their Exodus in about 1491 BC, long before he came to the throne. So, by virtue of this first-hand scribal record, the standard Bible chronology as generally promotes is seen to be incorrect.

Source (for Morganite): Laurence Gardner, "Bloodline of the Holy Grail"

The major difference b/w this and the bible(technically a primary source) is that the bible has too many versions and has been tampered with too much. Allowing for more mistakes. Also, the preophets that recorded in the bible were also not perfect and could have easily mistaken a date. There are a variety of examples of that throughout the bible. The annals of Ramses II has not had such a process. ( im not refuting the truthfulness nor sacredness of the bible.) I agree with Morganite, and have always thought Moses to have been born in 1370 and the exodus from Egypt in 1290. Atleast we know for sure that the exodus occured 80 years after Moses' birth.

It would be nice to find a proper primary source. In any event, the Bible offers two possible dates several hundred years apart. Both cannot be correct and neither might be.

There was a difference between Semites and Bebrews, or habiru, as they might have been referred to. The whole region of Palestine and beyond was the province of Semites, but not all Semites were Israelites.

When extracting dates from the Old Testament, it is advcisable to be cautious as record keeping in those days was an art, not a science, and 'near enough' was usually ;good enough.' Always allow for the human hand in these matters. Nothing from antiquity whether in the Bible or out of it, comes to us untouched by human hands.




MORGANITE