[firmbeliever]

I was just wondering,
Has the "tail bone" or coccyx been found in many humans from the past?
I mean where the whole skeleton is not found, has only the coccyx ever been found?

Just curious...

[Capuchin]

I was just wondering,
has the "tail bone" or coccyx been found in many humans from the past?
I mean where the whole skeleton is not found, has only the coccyx ever been found?

Just curious...

I'm wondering why you would expect to see such a thing?

[michealb]

I personally see no difference between micro and macro evolution. Micro leads to macro, and by believing that one happens, we must conclude that the other does too.

Considering mice and man have DNA 97% the same meaning in the millions of years that animals like mice have been around there has only been a 3% change seems like a pretty minor change. The fundies will never concede that point though.

[inthebox]

The Americans arent evolving to take into account changes in the abundance of food in their environment, they still have the primative "eat as much high fat food as you can" mentality. But really it's not evidence against it, as the fat americans are having less children and dying earlier, leaving the more fit ones to survive. But it hasnt been long enough to see if there are any effects here. Our medicine interupts evolution, making humans a tricky thing to study the evolution of.

I personally see no difference between micro and macro evolution. Micro leads to macro, and by believing that one happens, we must conclude that the other does too.

There are plenty of things that we have that are vestigial, muscles to move our ears? (some people can move their ears, others can't, because it's a useless trait and we are no longer selected for it). Same with our sense of smell. These things we used in prehistory, but now have no use for because predators are such a small threat so they are diminishing. Surely god would not let these things diminish, in case we needed them in future? Right?

Our sense of smell is linked to taste. Ask anyone with a cold how anything tastes.
Also our sense of smell is interconnected with memory and emotion, thus the perfume industry. There are studies showing a correlation between a loss of smelll and neuropsychiatric illnesses like alzheimer's and schizophrenia.

So the sense of smell is far from vestigial or useless.




Grace and peace

[michealb]

The sense of smell isn't useless, a sense of smell like a blood hound is. I think what Cap was referring to was some data I remember seeing(don't remember where) That either speculated or had evidence(again don't remember the article that well) that humans once had a much better sense of smell and that moving into large groups and starting to farm, we lost our keen sense of smell because it wasn't needed for survival

[templelane]

I think the article was in New Scientist, I remember reading something like it anyway.

[Capuchin]

Our sense of smell is linked to taste. Ask anyone with a cold how anything tastes.
Also our sense of smell is interconnected with memory and emotion, thus the perfume industry. There are studies showing a correlation between a loss of smelll and neuropsychiatric illnesses like alzheimer's and schizophrenia.

So the sense of smell is far from vestigial or useless.

Grace and peace

Michaelb has what I meant, it isn't exactly vestigial, but we just don't use it anymore. We don't encounter rotting food enough for the smell part of taste to be selected for.

You're right that there are uses for smell, I never claimed there wasn't, just that it's no longer a life or death situation, and that there is evidence that it is diminishing because it's no longer being selected for.

Something doesn't have to be useless for it to be energetically inefficient.

[firmbeliever]

michaelb has what i meant, it isnt exactly vestigial, but we just don't use it anymore. We don't encounter rotting food enough for the smell part of taste to be selected for.

You're right that there are uses for smell, i never claimed there wasn't, just that it's no longer a life or death situation, and that there is evidence that it is diminishing because it's no longer being selected for.

Something doesn't have to be useless for it to be energetically inefficient.

Is it possible that at the rate humans are depending on electronic gadgets like computers to do all the brainwork,
Then could we be already "killing" parts of our brain?

[worthbeads]

Is it possible that at the rate humans are depending on electronic gadgets like computers to do all the brainwork,
then could we be already "killing" parts of our brain?

I would imagine that we are getting smarter, because electronics are taking the place of physical labor, not mental labor.

[firmbeliever]

I would imagine that we are getting smarter, because electronics are taking the place of physical labor, not mental labor.

Smarter?
Or dependent and lazy?:)

[worthbeads]

How about this: 50% evolve because they use technology to its full potential and the rest don't because they are dependent. :D

[michealb]

We are definitely making it easier for those of us that lets just say aren't the brightest crayon in the box to breed and I think we are already starting to see the ill effects of this in the United States. Very few don't make it to breeding age because they are too dumb so no natural selection there and then we give well fare based on the number of children you have which encourages those that are not able to support themselves encouragement to breed more. It's like selecting those that are worst suited to fend for themselves and artificially making sure there are more of them. I'm not saying that everyone on well fare is less suited to breed and you could make the argument that some of those people are only on well fare because other people keeping them down but I think more than a few fall into the should not breed category.

[firmbeliever]

michealb,
You are making humans sound...
Less human:)

[albear]

I agree with him fully though

[Capuchin]

michealb,
You are making humans sound.....
less human:)

He's making us sound perfectly human.

[michealb]

michealb,
You are making humans sound.....
less human:)

I agree which is one of the problems with being an atheist. You have to understand that you are no different than any other animal just a little smarter and because of this you have to understand their rules. Their rules are evolve or die off. So if you remove natural selection in the human world how do you ethically add a form a selection, so that the most fit breed. You can't add natural selection back or restrict breeding rights so how to prevent a downward spiral?

[firmbeliever]

I agree which is one of the problems with being an atheist. You have to understand that you are no different than any other animal just a little smarter and because of this you have to understand their rules. Their rules are evolve or die off. So if you remove natural selection in the human world how do you ethically add a form a selection, so that the most fit breed. You can't add natural selection back or restrict breeding rights so how to prevent a downward spiral?

Smarter with a conscience!:)
Does that not make a difference even if we have evolved?

[inthebox]

I agree which is one of the problems with being an atheist. You have to understand that you are no different than any other animal just a little smarter and because of this you have to understand their rules. Their rules are evolve or die off. So if you remove natural selection in the human world how do you ethically add a form a selection, so that the most fit breed. You can't add natural selection back or restrict breeding rights so how to prevent a downward spiral?

Humans are no different than any other animal? Human life is equivalent or not to be valued anymore than any other species?
That is why I asked about cows and humans.

Hitler, and Margaret Sanger believe in a "fit breed" breed under the auspices of evolution and eugenics.

This is the reason I have a problem with evolution.
The major 3 monotheistic religions value humans over animals. That is an "evolved" belief.



Grace and Peace

[albear]

Humans are no different than any other animal? Human life is equivalent or not to be valued anymore than any other species?
That is why I asked about cows and humans.

Hitler, and Margaret Sanger believe in a "fit breed" breed under the auspices of evolution and eugenics.

This is the reason I have a problem with evolution.
The major 3 monotheistic religions value humans over animals. That is an "evolved" belief.



Grace and Peace

we are very different from other animals, and should be valued more because impreety sure the cows don't give a damm about us

[inthebox]

What scientific theory is there that states that humans are any more important than cows or trees or the oceans?

Even pagans acknowledge a higher power.




Grace and peace