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    letmeno's Avatar
    letmeno Posts: 215, Reputation: 23
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    #1

    Sep 23, 2005, 07:58 AM
    Living in sin
    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly... This is a relationship question, but I chose to discuss this with other christians.

    I am in a relationship with the father of my 2 year old son. We are not married yet, and we live together. I have always known the Lord, but I have recently renewed my fellowship in church, and have come back into the light. I was not in the light when he and I came together, moved in together and had our son.

    God does not recognize relationships such as this. I know that he will give me the strenghth and the knowledge to make the right choice.

    We are going to get married after I graduate from school. Should we move under separate roofs until then. I am not trying at all to rationalize this, It is morally wrong, but we do love each other, we have been through some really rough times together, we are getting married, we have a son together, but he has no place to go.

    I pray on this, but I would also like some words of comfort, encouragement and support from you all.
    Chery's Avatar
    Chery Posts: 3,666, Reputation: 698
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    #2

    Sep 23, 2005, 08:14 AM
    I'm not a member of any church, I am interested in all religion out of pure curiosity. But when I went to Sunday School as a child, I did learn that God forgives our sins - he sacrificed his only son to tell you that. In my opinion, your sin is very minimal compared to murder and mayhem. And you did ask for forgiveness, you did receive it. Also teaches to love one another, that sounds like you don't need to put anyone out on the street as you do have the highest intentions for the future. You can put needs of the flesh aside until the blessed day, but a child needs his father and should not be denied that. My best wishes to you all as a family!

    :)
    Heirborn's Avatar
    Heirborn Posts: 4, Reputation: 2
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    #3

    Sep 26, 2005, 02:35 PM
    Living in sin
    Good afternoon!

    I think a couple of things need to be addressed here. First and foremost is YOUR relationship with God, followed VERY closely by your child's relationship with God, and then your lover's relationship with God.

    My advice is to live under separate roofs (if at all feasible) until your marriage is complete. It is my opinion that if we are "walking in the light again," as you say, that we should not knowingly continue in sinful ways.

    That being said, I would also like to add that you have a HUGE part to play in your child's present and future relationship with God. Jesus held the children in such high esteem, that he told us grown ups that we needed to be more like them. But that also came with a warning:

    Mt 18:6
    but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

    Your actions have an effect on your child, both in the present and in the future.

    Now, I must ask if your significant other is a believer as well? If so, then good, this should go at least moderately well until the marriage. If not, then you're opening yourself to a whole bunch of problems, fights, temptations, and spiritual battles. I just recently counseled a young lady in my church in just such a situation. I predicted to her a year ago what would most likely happen when her new-found faith collided with his selfish "my way or the highway" attitude. Sure enough, it did.

    I must take exception to the previous poster's notion of some sins being graver than others. Sin is sin, and there are no degrees. That's something we humans made up to ease our conscience. "At least I only stole 10 bucks, it's not like I killed someone." In our worldly system, that's true. Stealing is not as bad as murder. But in the economy of God, sin is sin, and it's all abhorrent, and He cannot stand to look upon it. Hence the sending of His son, in whom we believers stand.

    Tread carefully. You're not just affecting your life, you're affecting the life of your child, as well.
    hanabelle's Avatar
    hanabelle Posts: 37, Reputation: 6
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    #4

    Sep 27, 2005, 10:45 AM
    I completely respect your values and religon and Its good that you are wanting the best for your family but I think your being awfully hard on yourself. You obviously are in love with this person and they to you and you have a beautiful child together that you both love unconditionally; with so much love between all three of you, how can god look at your life and not recognize the pure love between you. I was raised with the same beliefs as you do, but unfortunately I found myself in the same situationwith a young child. I did go through the same feelings as you are expirencing but I came to a conclusion that I was in love with the man I lived with and I wasn't going to let any one or any religon tell me that I was a bad person because of it, not only that but I had a child to think about. There comes a time to do what you think is right based on your faith and then there is reality, YOU HAVE A CHILD TOGETHER, do you really feel it is wise to live in separate homes when thus far you have been living together, that may cause more harm then good. If your really not sure then ask god for forgiveness and do the best you can with the situation your in. You made a mistake, GOD WILL FORGIVE YOU. Please don't be so hard on yourself. :o Good Luck and best wishes!
    s_cianci's Avatar
    s_cianci Posts: 5,472, Reputation: 760
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    #5

    Sep 29, 2005, 06:27 PM
    I don't think the question of whether you should live under the same roof is pertinent at this point. You've acknowledged your past sins and that is what's most important. You are already yoked to this man because you have a child together and that will be the case regardless of whether you are married or not. You are already married to each other in spirit if not legally. Personally, my advice to you would be to get married right now and don't wait until you graduate from school. I believe that's the right thing to do in God's sight at this point.
    letmeno's Avatar
    letmeno Posts: 215, Reputation: 23
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    #6

    Sep 29, 2005, 07:57 PM
    I thank you all for your words of encouragement. As I have said before, I was not in the light when he and I came together, so naturally, neither was he. This Saturday he told me that he was going to join church as a new member. I didn't pressure him into doing this, I suggested this. And I proceeded to go to service every Sunday morning w/out him (praying that he would open his heart to this of course) More and more each day, he became intrested in the bible, what was going on in church, how it made me feel, etc. and then one day, it was literally like a lightbulb came on. We have agreed to move the wedding up. I don't feel as if putting him out on the street will solve my issue, but only create a bigger problem. My children attend service with me every Sunday, I want the best for my family and again, I thank you all.
    Chery's Avatar
    Chery Posts: 3,666, Reputation: 698
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    #7

    Sep 30, 2005, 08:51 AM
    You are more than welcome! It is still my feeling that "God" is forgiving and sees good intentions and love, especially in an intact family. Those who preach fire and brimstone, and are human and not beyond sin themselves - to me, don't share the initial intent of religion, which is to guide and teach love for one another and not fear. Bless you and your young family and all the best to you.
    dimples's Avatar
    dimples Posts: 256, Reputation: 9
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    #8

    Sep 30, 2005, 08:58 AM
    I am not so much of a Christian but this I say. Marriage is not just walking down the aisle & saying "I do". I think this only came into practice few centuries ago. But I think the most important thing here is respect, love & faithfulness to one another. That is the universal essence of a real MARRIAGE.
    Chery's Avatar
    Chery Posts: 3,666, Reputation: 698
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    #9

    Sep 30, 2005, 09:36 AM
    I agree dimples, marriage was 'initiated' by early 'modern society' and has nothing to do with the history of beginning of man and evolution. I don't remember reading anything about Adam and Eve's marriage. The priority issue at that time was procreation and assuring the survival of man on this planet. But in this society, people seem to need more and seek guidance through religion which is interpreted in many ways, depending on life's trials and needs. The family unit is still the rudimentary focal point and should continue to be that way.
    letmeno's Avatar
    letmeno Posts: 215, Reputation: 23
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    #10

    Sep 30, 2005, 07:29 PM
    Oh do I ever agree, women today are more driven by the "wedding", the white gown, friends, gifts, and the party.
    However very nice and fun, after the party is over, then what?
    Since this man and I have been together, he has changed in so many ways. This didn't happen overnight but, he gradually began to open up. If we stay together and stick together, by the grace of God, it will get better.
    phildebenham's Avatar
    phildebenham Posts: 95, Reputation: 9
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    #11

    Oct 1, 2005, 10:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by letmeno


    We are going to get married after I graduate from school. Should we move under seperate roofs until then. I am not trying at all to rationalize this, It is morally wrong, but we do love each other, we have been through some really rough times together, we are getting married, we have a son together, but he has no place to go.

    I pray on this, but I would also like some words of comfort, encouragement and support from you all.
    After you graduate from school? What schoo? High School? College? How old are you?

    You have a child and you are living like you are married. Why, then, don't you get married and end the charade? What does school have to do with it? You are already living a married life, perhaps you should seal the deal.

    Phil
    phildebenham's Avatar
    phildebenham Posts: 95, Reputation: 9
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    #12

    Oct 1, 2005, 11:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Chery
    I don't remember reading anything about Adam and Eve's marriage.
    Genesis 2:21-25
    Chery's Avatar
    Chery Posts: 3,666, Reputation: 698
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    #13

    Oct 2, 2005, 12:41 AM
    21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

    I know about the rib, but no wedding ceremony or vows. I'ts all in the interpretation. My interpretation is that when you live together, you are man and wife - even without the papers or today's society.

    To cleave: Main Entry: 1cleave
    Pronunciation: 'klEv
    Function: intransitive verb
    Inflected Form(s): cleaved /'klEvd/; or clove /'klOv/; also clave /'klAv/; cleaved; cleav·ing
    Etymology: Middle English clevien, from Old English clifian; akin to Old High German kleben to stick
    : to adhere firmly and closely or loyally and unwaveringly

    Don't mean to offen anyone, but it still is in the interpretation...
    phildebenham's Avatar
    phildebenham Posts: 95, Reputation: 9
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    #14

    Oct 2, 2005, 03:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Chery
    21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

    I know about the rib, but no wedding ceremony or vows. I'ts all in the interpretation. My interpretation is that when you live together, you are man and wife - even without the papers or today's society.
    The "ceremony" for Adam and Eve was God's joining them together as husband and wife. It is here that God instituted marriage. Ceremonies have changed over the years and cultures, but marriage is the same. In "today's society" living together in a state of non-matrimony is accepted, by and large, by the community. It is not marriage, however. The couples doing so do not even consider themselves married. They consider themselves committed to one another, but not "married."

    What is the reason for living together and not getting married? If you are truly committed to one another, why do you not make the societal and biblical commitment before men? I can see no logic, no scriptual reason, no spiritual reason, to not marry. I can see only self-righteousness, egotism, and a desire to illiminate ones guilt of sin by saying that sin is not sin if we really love each other. To take marriage lightly is to take the One who instituted lightly as well.

    Phil Debenham
    eawoodall's Avatar
    eawoodall Posts: 230, Reputation: 5
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    #15

    Oct 2, 2005, 03:30 PM
    First corinthians seven verse thirty six
    When a man and a woman are engaged to be married (she is 'his virgin'- she can only be 'his virgin' and not her father's virgin if she is engaged to him)
    And she is not extremely young, but has needs, if he wills in his heart to fulfill those needs, they have not sinned let them marry.
    Read it for yourself I cor 7:36

    God does recognize relationships such as this.

    Read the bible and do not listen to the words of ignorant men.

    That should be some words of comfort, encouragement and support from you all.

    eawoodall
    phildebenham's Avatar
    phildebenham Posts: 95, Reputation: 9
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    #16

    Oct 2, 2005, 05:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by eawoodall
    when a man and a woman are engaged to be married (she is 'his virgin'- she can only be 'his virgin' and not her father's virgin if she is engaged to him)
    and she is not extremely young, but has needs, if he wills in his heart to fulfill those needs, they have not sinned let them marry.
    read it for yourself I cor 7:36

    God does recognize relationships such as this.

    read the bible and do not listen to the words of ignorant men.

    that should be some words of comfort, encouragement and support from you all.

    eawoodall
    I do not know if your line "read the bible and do not listen to the words of ignorant men" refers to me (since I posted just before you) or not, but I would agree with the statement (although I would leave out the word "ignorant.")

    The verse you quote, 1 Cor. 7:36, reads in the NASB:

    But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wshes, he does not sin; let her marry.

    In the context of this passage we find that the Apostle Paul was giving instruction as to the disposal of children in marriage. He is saying that children should seek and follow the direction of their parents. Parents should also consult their children's wishes and not dictate as they please without reason. This is the context of what Paul is saying and has very little to do with the query of this thread.

    Not listening to "ignorant men" and reading the bible is very good advice, but we must be careful HOW we read the bible. To make proof texts out of passages of scripture is very dangerous indeed. Any text without the context is a proof text and often leads to error.

    Be blessed,

    Phil Debenham
    Chery's Avatar
    Chery Posts: 3,666, Reputation: 698
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    #17

    Oct 2, 2005, 11:13 PM
    There are so many religions and as many interpreters of their scriptures, and through my personal experience I have become warry of 'human' interpretations purely because some of those humans were greater sinners than I could have ever imagined! Take the Koran for instance. This has been interpreted to me by three individuals and each have 'read' it differently. My Jahovah Witness friends also teach me one way. Budism teaches another way. In other words, if one needs a religion for comfort and guidance, great! as long as it is for the good of passing on love, caring and comort towards one another. So, blame me for interpreting things my way, -we all have the right of choice-. But be truthful, some commit crimes, go to confession, say a few Hail Mary's and feel forgiven?? Some abuse young boys in church, but continue to 'teach the word'. What about the victims of murder and abuse - who do they turn to? I also have been married, and have a wonderful child. But "God" did not protect me from being a victim of spouse abuse and rape. When I did seek advice and comfort from the church, all I was told was to do my wifely duty?? This is the reason I will not let another human being interpret the words of "God" to me any longer. I'm more comfortable in reading and seeking the guidance myself and need no other intervention. But I do not encourage anyone else to follow my beliefs and still have a right to express them, thank goodness. We all should believe in 'live and let live' no matter what. This might not belong here, and is long-winded, but "I had to say it". Thanks for listening and the best to all.
    eawoodall's Avatar
    eawoodall Posts: 230, Reputation: 5
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    #18

    Oct 3, 2005, 04:29 AM
    Your error still
    The problem you have is in the verse, not your belief about what you think it is talking about, but what it actually said.

    It is impossible for this verse to be talking about the father's daughter as 'his virgin' since it said at the end of the verse for them to marry. A father cannot marry his daughter! 'his virgin' must refer to the fiancé of the virgin, because the fiancé is the only one who can marry the virgin, that is why they are engaged to begin with, hello? You are listening to ignorant men, because you believe a father can marry his own daughter, silly person.
    Arranged marriages were common, since women were only considered property, before christianity showed that they should be treated equally because they have equal worth with God. You need to read the bible not listen to what others tell you it said! Because the ignorant are trying to lead you astray, and have obviously done so, since you think a father should marry his daughter. Read the bible and the context is obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by phildebenham
    I do not know if your line "read the bible and do not listen to the words of ignorant men" refers to me (since I posted just before you) or not, but I would agree with the statement (although I would leave out the word "ignorant.")

    The verse you quote, 1 Cor. 7:36, reads in the NASB:

    But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wshes, he does not sin; let her marry.

    In the context of this passage we find that the Apostle Paul was giving instruction as to the disposal of children in marriage. He is saying that children should seek and follow the direction of their parents. Parents should also consult their childrens wishes and not dictate as they please without reason. This is the context of what Paul is saying and has very little to do with the query of this thread.

    Not listening to "ignorant men" and reading the bible is very good advice, but we must be careful HOW we read the bible. To make proof texts out of passages of scripture is very dangerous indeed. Any text without the context is a proof text and often leads to error.

    Be blessed,

    Phil Debenham
    Chery's Avatar
    Chery Posts: 3,666, Reputation: 698
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    #19

    Oct 3, 2005, 04:43 AM
    OK, I just picked up on something else... Here I go again! Even after Christianity, women were NOT always considered equal, and in the teachings of Martin Luther, and a Christian Teaching in former Yugoslavia taught that women were inferior and that they were property and they had to walk behind the husband to show respect. Even in the early american lifestyles, while witch-hunting, women had absolutely no rights. Like I said before, and always will, I'm no expert any anything, but I am a curious type and still like to learn more in spite of my age and illness. I am open to any opinions others have, but am certainly not shy in expressing mine either. So again, please do not feel offended, but don't wear blinders either. All the best, no matter what your beliefs, Chery.
    eawoodall's Avatar
    eawoodall Posts: 230, Reputation: 5
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    #20

    Oct 3, 2005, 04:59 AM
    there is only one interpretation of scripture.
    any single sin is counted as guilty of death before God.

    that the catholic church has popes who bows down to whatever religion comes before them, instead of teaching their people the word of God, shows that the catholics at the highest levels are not christian. See:
    http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/rome.html
    many are trying to keep you away from a true relationship with God. They are blind leading the blind. Jehovah's witnesses believe that God already returned to earth several times, since they keep predicting it (since the 1800s), even though Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour. So they refuse to listen to Jesus, how much could they actually be witnessing about someone they refuse to believe? The koran was made from the words of an angel, just like the book the mormons follow, paul said if any angel or even we ourselves come to you and preach any other gospel let them be cursed. Revelation states that any add words to this book shall have the tribulations of this book added to them. Writing additional books and claiming they are of God sounds like adding words to me. So neither of them follow the word of God.
    Buddism believes that nothing really exists, and that people can make themselves perfect, and that becoming perfect is good enough, but God has said in the bible that having committed any sin your entire life is enough to not be perfect, because it is your entire life that is perfect or not. Only God can save because only God is infinite, and able to do the infinite. God planned all this before he made it. The 'whosoever will' can be saved, because they want to be saved, and are willing to agree with God (repent) that they need to be saved. Logically only those who think they need salvation will ask for it. So catholic doctrine proves itself wrong- the pope many years ago declared himself perfect in healing, then he went for a walk wanting to use his new power, a person was on the ground, the pope command him to rise up and walk, the person tried to get up, and fell back down (because he was not physically healed), so the pope continued his walk. From this we learn the catholics deceive themselves willingly. They practice witchcraft, they claim in the mass they are making God come down and become blood and body again so they can eat and drink the "mass" (cana baal ism - priest of baal - condemned in the bible). They claim they are doing witchcraft for good (white witchcraft it is called), but the bible states rebellion is as witchcraft so they are in rebellion against God, so they are not following God. Logically only those who refuse to submit can be raped, if you are willing you cannot logically be raped, it is called consent. You stayed in the marriage after you said no, and your husband forced himself on you? God will repay, vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Do not thank some 'goodness' that you believe might exist someplace, Thank God. It is the job of man to thank God. The bible said there is no private interpretation of the word of God, that is a reason to not let other interprete it for you, not that you don't want them to, but that God said not to! To obey is better than sacrifice. God does not want any to suffer, but all be delivered. Do not stay in an abusive relationship, if only because others care about you if you do not consider yourself worth saving, if there are children you need for their safety to leave! Abusers of wives also often abuse the children! And rape is a form of abuse!
    I do not believe in live and let live, if the safety of the children is in question because you don't want to leave an abusive husband, get the children out of the household before the husband gets bored with raping you, and looks around for someone else to rape. Jesus said if a man offends you rebuke him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chery
    There are so many religions and as many interpreters of their scriptures, and through my personal experience I have become warry of 'human' interpretations purely because some of those humans were greater sinners than I could have ever imagined! Take the Koran for instance. This has been interpreted to me by three individuals and each have 'read' it differently. My Jahovah Witness friends also teach me one way. Budism teaches another way. In other words, if one needs a religion for comfort and guidance, great!, as long as it is for the good of passing on love, caring and comort towards one another. So, blame me for interpreting things my way, -we all have the right of choice-. But be truthful, some commit crimes, go to confession, say a few Hail Mary's and feel forgiven???? Some abuse young boys in church, but continue to 'teach the word'. What about the victims of murder and abuse - who do they turn to? I also have been married, and have a wonderful child. But "God" did not protect me from being a victim of spouse abuse and rape. When I did seek advice and comfort from the church, all I was told was to do my wifely duty???? This is the reason I will not let another human being interpret the words of "God" to me any longer. I'm more comfortable in reading and seeking the guidance myself and need no other intervention. But I do not encourage anyone else to follow my beliefs and still have a right to express them, thank goodness. We all should believe in 'live and let live' no matter what. This might not belong here, and is long-winded, but "I had to say it". Thanks for listening and the best to all.

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