[eawoodall]

Once again you quote men, not God. Men do not matter! Let God be true and every man a liar the bible said.

OK, I just picked up on something else... Here I go again! Even after Christianity, women were NOT always considered equal, and in the teachings of Martin Luther, and a Christian Teaching in former Yugoslavia taught that women were inferior and that they were property and they had to walk behind the husband to show respect. Even in the early american lifestyles, while witch-hunting, women had absolutely no rights. Like I said before, and always will, I'm no expert any anything, but I am a curious type and still like to learn more inspite of my age and illness. I am open to any opinions others have, but am certainly not shy in expressing mine either. So again, please do not feel offended, but don't wear blinders either. All the best, no matter what your beliefs, Chery.

[phildebenham]

the problem you have is in the verse, not your belief about what you think it is talking about, but what it actually said.

it is impossible for this verse to be talking about the father's daughter as 'his virgin' since it said at the end of the verse for them to marry. a father cannot marry his daughter! 'his virgin' must refer to the fiance of the virgin, because the fiance is the only one who can marry the virgin, that is why they are engaged to begin with, hello? you are listening to ignorant men, because you believe a father can marry his own daughter, silly person.
arranged marriages were common, since women were only considered property, before christianity showed that they should be treated equally because they have equal worth with God. You need to read the bible not listen to what others tell you it said! because the ignorant are trying to lead you astray, and have obviously done so, since you think a father should marry his daughter. read the bible and the context is obvious.

Verse 38, continuing the context, reads: So then both he who gives his own virgin in marriage does well, and he who does not give her in marriage will do better.

Fiancés TAKE their betrothed in marriage. Fathers GIVE their virgin daughters in marriage. That, sir, is the context. No where does this passage suggest that the man Paul is speaking of marries the virgin. In verse 37 he is told that it is all right to "let her marry", not "marry her." In verse 38 he is told he can "give her in marriage", not "marry her." This is what the passage says, not what men have taught me. You need to practice what you preach, my friend.

Phil Debenham (Silly man)

[hanabelle]

Im coming to Chery's defense. Im sorry and Im sure you mean well but you really have no right in telling any person that if they don't believe like you do then they will be led astray. I myself have heard many interpertations of the bible and how can you say your's is right? What I don't understand is how can anyone say that THIS is what the bible means and THIS is what god says when the bible itself was written by human beings "interpertting" what god says. Christian historians are still trying to interprut the bible and god's message thousands of years later? If everything is set is stone than why are they bothering? Everything is based on faith and belief. You believe your way and anyone who doesn't is damned? How is that love towards your fellow man? I know what scriptures say A good portion of mylife I was brought up as a "born again" christian. And I followed everything that was entailed right down to the fire and brimstone mentallity. Did that belief have any outcome on my life at all? NOPE! And I realized I could not live my life trying to be this perfect epitamy of godliness. I do ask god for forgiveness wwhen I have sinned. But I know he loves me and hears me when I pray. I don't believe that gives me the right to go out and sin, but I do try to always do the right thing. But we are not perfect that is what makes us human beings and sinners.Iv come to believe that god is a loving god and not something to fear. As I read on one of these posts that no matter what "sin is sin and no sin is worse than another". I don't believe that, you mean to tell me that if two people die and one was a sadistic serial killer and the other person was normal kind hard working person never committed a crime except for an occasional lie throughout their life then god would put them both in hell? I could never understand that growing up. I was tauht god was love and god loves you this and that and then to hear: well if you lie and then died that second after words your going to hell along with this murderer. That is seriously screwed up and to be honest with you I wouldn't want to believe in a religon that believed that god would do that to his people. You have your belief others have theirs, whether it be judiasm, muslim,buddhism we as HUMAN beings have no right to tell what we all should believe or not believe. Especially since we are all sinners and are all imperfect. If you want people to respect your belief respect theirs and stop trying to make people feel guilty.

[phildebenham]

OK, I just picked up on something else... Here I go again! Even after Christianity, women were NOT always considered equal, and in the teachings of Martin Luther, and a Christian Teaching in former Yugoslavia taught that women were inferior and that they were property and they had to walk behind the husband to show respect. Even in the early american lifestyles, while witch-hunting, women had absolutely no rights.

Chery,

There are many, throughout the history of the Christian Faith, that have taught the inferiority of women as compared to men. Martin Luther, a great believer and arguably the "father" of the Reformation, was still human and made many mistakes. However, I do not believe that the inferiority of women as compared to men is a biblical viewpoint, or a godly one for that matter. The culture we live in (in this country) is not the culture Paul was addressing when he spoke of a father giving his daughters hand in marriage. By explaining what the verse meant I was not making a statement concerning the rights of women. I was merely pointing out what the passage was talking about. I believe, Chery, that you are equal with, and just as important as, me. I do not believe that God looks upon me with any more favor than He looks upon you. I do not believe that Jesus died for me more than He died for you.

Blessings,

Phil

[phildebenham]

Im coming to Chery's defense. Im sorry and Im sure you mean well but you really have no right in telling any person that if they don't believe like you do then they will be led astray.

Hanabelle,

I shall defend Chery as well. I do not know where I have said that if you, she, or anyone else has to believe like me or they will be led astray. I am a Christian. I believe the bible is the Word of God. That is, therefore, where my answers will come from. If you disbelieve the bible you will reject my message. That is of course your prerogative, and, while I would hope that you and everyone else come to accept what the bible teaches, I respect your right to reject it. I may disagree with you, but I do not disrespect you.

I myself have heard many interpertations of the bible and how can you say your's is right? what I don't understand is how can anyone say that THIS is what the bible means and THIS is what god says when the bible itself was written by human beings "interpertting" what god says. Christian historians are still trying to interprut the bible and god's message thousands of years later? If everything is set is stone than why are they bothering? Everything is based on faith and belief. You believe your way and anyone who doesnt is damned?

Concerning interpretation, Hanabelle, we clearly disagree. There can be only one interpretation of any written or spoken word. All other understandings are mis-interpretations. The bible was written in Koine Greek. That is a language that was only spoken for about 100 years. Koine means "common." It was the language of the common person and easily urderstood. Personally, I believe that is why God chose that language for the New Testament. Interpretation does not involve what a person thinks a passage means. It involves what the passage originally meant by its author. That is not often hard to understand, even in the bible. Once you see what Paul, Luke, John, etc. was saying in a given writing you are free to accept it or reject it, but you are not free to "interpret" it for your own liking.

Christian Historians have nothing to do with biblical interpretation. They study the History of Christianity. Interpretation is the job of the reader. It is your job, if you read the bible. By and large that job is not too difficult. The bible speaks clearly for the most part (some areas of prophesy are difficult to understand), and can be easily understood. One of the most important rules of interpretation, whether of the bible or some other work, is to interpret in context. That has been my only dispute in this thread. If someone comes along and quotes a verse to prove his/her point, and the verse is quote out of the contextual content of the passage, I dispute it (even if the point is valid). Proof texts are dangerous and dishonest.

I have never said that anyone who does not believe as I do is damned, Hannable. It is the bible that says who is and who is not saved or damned. You can accept it or reject it, but you can't blame it on me. This thread began with the question of living together "in sin" (her words), or living apart. I suggested that if the couple already has a 2 year old son and they are living as if married, perhaps they should be married and end the charade. I never said they were damned for living together. The thing that saves, according to the scripture, is belief in the finished work of Christ. That is the only thing that saves. Rejection of that is what damns. That is what the bible teaches, not something I made up.

Finally, Hannabel being brought
Up in a "born again" Christian home does not make one a Christian any more than living in a barn make you a horse. There is only one kind of Christian; a person who has put his/her faith in Jesus Christ and given Him Lordship of his/her life. I respect your right to believe anything you want, Hannabel, but I can only answer question from my own belief system, which is decidedly Christian. If you reject the bible and the God of the bible you will want to avoid my answers. If you believe the bible and the God of the bible I just may have something worth sharing.

With great respect for you and Chery,

Phil Debenham

[Chery]

Thank you, for a while there I thought someone was going to 'stone' me. But I also have a good sense of humor and always think kindly of people first until they prove me wrong in my thinking so. Have a good one...

Chery,

There are many, throughout the history of the Christian Faith, that have taught the inferiority of women as compared to men. Martin Luther, a great believer and arguably the "father" of the Reformation, was still human and made many mistakes. However, I do not believe that the inferiority of women as compared to men is a biblical viewpoint, or a godly one for that matter. The culture we live in (in this country) is not the culture Paul was addressing when he spoke of a father giving his daughters hand in marriage. By explaining what the verse meant I was not making a statement concerning the rights of women. I was merely pointing out what the passage was talking about. I believe, Chery, that you are equal with, and just as important as, me. I do not believe that God looks upon me with any more favor than He looks upon you. I do not believe that Jesus died for me more than He died for you.

Blessings,

Phil

[hanabelle]

To Phildebeham: I want to first apologize to you if I seemed harsh in that last post I made. I may have had misunderstood you When I wrote that last response. But I wanted to say that I never said I rejected the bible and what it says. I may have a hard time understanding it but I never said I rejected it. Ever since I was little I have only heard it explained to me in one way and as I became older it seemed like god was something to fear. I know in my last post I said that I had heard the bible interpurted in a few different ways most of those were just other ideas what god was saying or what he meant by what he said. Not that I believe those ideas, but it was something to think about. As far as when I said I was raised as a born again christian, yes I still consider myself a christian, I love god with all my heart. I don't reject god or the bible in any way, if anything I'm trying to find out answers. Bottom line, the things that I was told in church scared the wits out of me, and all that I ever known was to be made to feel that If I didn't do what god said,I was going to hell(my fathers words). I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. Im sorry if you thought I meant you specifically that you said that I was damned. I didn't mean for you to take it that way, Its just that Its something I heard my whole life. I have read parts of the bible and I enjoy it, it always gives me peace in times of trouble and sadness. Actually it's the only thing I read for a month when my grandfather passed away. And it greatly comforted me. I love god with all my heart. I hope this sheds some light on where Im coming from. And Im very sorry if I offended you.--hanabelle

[phildebenham]

To Phildebeham: I want to first apologize to you if I seemed harsh in that last post I made. I may have had misunderstood you When I wrote that last response. But I wanted to say that I never said I rejected the bible and what it says. I may have a hard time understanding it but I never said I rejected it. Ever since I was little I have only heard it explained to me in one way and as I became older it seemed like god was something to fear. I know in my last post I said that I had heard the bible interpurted in a few different ways most of those were just other ideas what god was saying or what he meant by what he said. Not that I beleive those ideas, but it was something to think about. As far as when I said I was raised as a born again christian, yes I still consider myself a christian, I love god with all my heart. I don't reject god or the bible in any way, if anything im trying to find out answers. Bottom line, the things that I was told in church scared the wits out of me, and all that I ever known was to be made to feel that If I didn't do what god said,I was going to hell(my fathers words). I hope you can understand where im coming from. Im sorry if you thought I meant you specifically that you said that I was damned. I didn't mean for you to take it that way, Its just that Its something I heard my whole life. I have read parts of the bible and I enjoy it, it always gives me peace in times of trouble and sadness. Actually its the only thing I read for a month when my grandfather passed away. And it greatly comforted me. I love god with all my heart. I hope this sheds some light on where Im coming from. And Im very sorry if I offended you.--hanabelle

Hanabelle,

I am not offended. I am glad to hear that you believe the bible and saddended to hear of your negative experiences in church. There are many who have been injured by abusive churches, and if you are one of these, I understand completely. If you read something in the bible that you have trouble understanding, I would be happy to discuss it with you either in this forum or privately. Should you so choose, my email address is [email protected].

At your service,

Phil

[Fr_Chuck]

Get married,

"I am going to wait till>>>>>"

You did not wait to move in together, did not wait to have a child together.

So basically waiting is showing some doubt of commitment?

You either wish to be married ( if so this weekend would work great) or you don't want to marry this person.

If you don't want to marry him you don't have any business living with him.

Please I have heard it all, not enough money, want big wedding, and so on. Well the licence and blood test if needed normally cost less than 50 bucks, you can always have a large wedding when you get the money for a blessing latter.

[letmeno]

First and foremost, let me defend myself. You don't know me, my living arrangements or my situation. We are currently going through some financial, and legal issues that I do not want to bring into our marriage. But since you have never in your life met me, you wouldn't know that. He not only has children from a previous relaitonship, but so do I there are child support and custodial issues that need to be hashed out before we are married. Again, since you have never met me, you wouldn't know that either. If you had of read the very first post in this thread you would know that I am only seeking the advice of my christian sisters and brother's but you come right in here passing judgement on me and that is not what christians do. To me, you need to find another thread to post to or get all of the fact before you pass judgement on another human being, or submit a post. As I said in the first post that you obviously didn't comprehend. I was not living as a christian when we met, I was not living as a christian when I had my son, when I realized that I needed to be married to this man or move on with my life as christian, I turned to other christians for advice. To let all of the other's who were behind me and gave me GOOD advice, you will all be happy to know that we will exchange marital vows on Christmas Eve.

[Fr_Chuck]

Being told what is proper moral values is not judgement it is merely telling them standards that God expects. We all fall short in many areas.
But it is clear that you are making excuses, You merely want someone to pat you on the back and tell you it is all OK, Tell you keep doing things they way you are and it is all going to get better.

I will tellyou to get a life, look at reality and then follow God's word. When we try, at least to the best of our ability, to follow God's word, we will find that life has a way of clearing up so many of the issues.

You want an easy fit, and I am sure that there will be those that will give it to you, Not God's word mind you, but a twisted version that will make everyone feel all rosy and happy.

Not my style, truth and directness to the real issues and problems.
Most people don't like hearing bold truth at first, but normally they really know it is what should be done.

[Chery]

Hey, letmeno, I will be thinking of you and your family on Christmas - Good Luck in getting all the other issues to fit into place, dear, and keep us posted.

P.S. We do this on our free time and really appreciate feedback if our answers/advice helped or not, please: click the Rate This Post link, click on Approve or Disapprove, and give a comment. Thanks!

[letmeno]

Thank you chery. I spoke with my pastor on this one, and she is going to start marriage counseling next week.

[STONY]

It Sounds As Though You Have Become Co-dependent On Each Other For Your Basic Existence. Rent, Utilities, Etc. If This Guy Really Loves You Then It Would Seem That He Could Step On The Gas As Far As Getting Married To You. You Do Understand As Long As You Are Not Married There Are No Ties To Break, There Is No Covenant Between You That Binds You Together. My Advice, If He'll Marry You When School Is Over, Then He Can Marry You Now. Never Do Today What You Can Put Off Until Tomorrow Is An Excuse To Back Out At Any Time And A Receipe For Failure And Dissappoint-ment. This Could Be The Real Test Of Your Love Between Each Other, But Be Prepared Should You Fall Flat On Your Face. The One Who Loves You Closer Than A Brother Is Jesus Christ.

[Chery]

It Sounds As Though You Have Become Co-dependent On Each Other For Your Basic Existence. Rent, Utilities, Etc. If This Guy Really Loves You Then It Would Seem That He Could Step On The Gas As Far As Getting Married To You. You Do Understand As Long As You Are Not Married There Are No Ties To Break, There Is No Covenant Between You That Binds You Together. My Advice, If He'll Marry You When School Is Over, Then He Can Marry You Now. Never Do Today What You Can Put Off Until Tomorrow Is An Excuse To Back Out At Any Time And A Receipe For Failure And Dissappoint-ment. This Could Be The Real Test Of Your Love Between Each Other, But Be Prepared Should You Fall Flat On Your Face. The One Who Loves You Closer Than A Brother Is Jesus Christ.

Sorry, but I don't think you read the whole thread from the beginning, they have a child and also other commitments - so they are taking the right steps, one at a time to get to the perfect family unity and harmony, and not making excuses.

[JoeCanada76]

Hello Again,

I do not think everybody will agree with my answer but here is what I believe. Being pure before marriage. Waiting for marriage. Starting a life together is all good. As far as marriage, a piece of paper an agreement on paper. I believe that if you truly love that one person, you have promised to be with each other and you already live together and you have a child together. You in the eyes of God are already Married. It is a spiritual commitement, you join together with somebody that is your other half. You created a baby through your love together and that is part of marriage. Staying faithful, staying true and long term commitement. That is what God asks of a marriage. It is great that you are getting married. To be honest, my in laws did not want us to move in, and so forth before marriage but my wife and I did. We thought of waiting but we did not. The only thing we did was the night before our wedding we were in separate places and we did not see each other until she walked down the aisle. So enjoy your wedding and do not worry so much. God is faithful and he has blessed you with a beautiful baby and that is what is important. Hope this helps and may God bless you always.

[ranieri]

Dear one, please do what you know to be right in your heart and mind about your lover and your son. I did not bother to read any further posts because you need some real back up here.
Please do not accuse yourself of living in sin. It is called love. And in a lifetime not everyone is so fortunate to find a shoulder to lean on, a common ground, to share to laugh to hold . Nope not everone is so fortunate. And we know loneliness is the killer!
Does everyone who is passing judgment against you ( including yourself) realize how the Lord God and Saviour was born into this world. Did anyone dare to think differently. Yes it was a miracle. But who knew unless you were a beleiver in devine spirit. The fact holds true, they were not married at the time of conception. Does that make it less so? I think not.
Jesus preaches love, love your neighbor and love God. He will decide if it is inappropriate or not. True love does not need a piece of paper to the government to prove it is not sin.
True love does not need a ring(wedding) to make it so. True love needs a ritual of being honest and loving and caring devotion to one an other. Nothing more.
So you take in your lover and make it good for him. God is not a condeming God. Whenever 2 people are brought together in love, the Angel of God comes down above you and blesses and receives that union. It is a GOOD thing.
Angels and God know when it is done out of lust or love. The piece of paper is a means to an end. We all know plenty of(married) people that have all waited and done the right thing and cheat mercilessly on the marriage. I would call that a sin. To pretend to God and your intended that this is the real thing, I mean I would be more afraid to pull that one off than to live with the one I love. You go into that ceremony (ritual) making some serious promises before God. And to lie to him about your intentions to marriage, I would not be able to face him if this were so.
All the 10 commandments boil down to 2 things:
Love God &
Love thy neighbor
This is true spiritualism, religion, whatever you want to call it. That is what it boils down to.
If you are obeying these 2 laws, you don't even need the rest of the commandment, you can't go wrong.
I think people become judgmental about this because they are thinking of what goes on behind closed doors. Which 1st off is none of their business and get your mind out of the gutter because believe it or not! All relationships are not, Yes I said Are Not based on sex!!
We all know of stories in the news of people coming together in love, and at death find out they were of a different sex when the autopsy was done. Everone claims how can you not know this? There are all kinds of relationships. Do not get caught in this judgemental trap. Peace ranieri

[Chery]

dear one, please do what you know to be right in your heart and mind about your lover and your son. I did not bother to read any further posts because you need some real back up here.
Please do not accuse yourself of living in sin. It is called love. And in a lifetime not everyone is so fortunate to find a shoulder to lean on, a common ground, to share to laugh to hold . Nope not everone is so fortunate. And we know loneliness is the killer!
Does everyone who is passing judgment against you ( including yourself) realize how the Lord God and Saviour was born into this world. Did anyone dare to think differently. Yes it was a miracle. But who knew unless you were a beleiver in devine spirit. The fact holds true, they were not married at the time of conception. Does that make it less so? I think not.
Jesus preaches love, love your neighbor and love God. He will decide if it is inappropriate or not. True love does not need a piece of paper to the government to prove it is not sin.
True love does not need a ring(wedding) to make it so. True love needs a ritual of being honest and loving and caring devotion to one an other. Nothing more.
So you take in your lover and make it good for him. God is not a condeming God. Whenever 2 people are brought together in love, the Angel of God comes down above you and blesses and receives that union. It is a GOOD thing.
Angels and God know when it is done out of lust or love. The piece of paper is a means to an end. We all know plenty of(married) people that have all waited and done the right thing and cheat mercilessly on the marriage. I would call that a sin. To pretend to God and your intended that this is the real thing, I mean I would be more afraid to pull that one off than to live with the one I love. You go into that ceremony (ritual) making some serious promises before God. And to lie to him about your intentions to marriage, I would not be able to face him if this were so.
All the 10 commandments boil down to 2 things:
Love God &
Love thy neighbor
This is true spiritualism, religion, whatever you want to call it. That is what it boils down to.
If you are obeying these 2 laws, you dont even need the rest of the commandment, you can't go wrong.
I think people become judgmental about this because they are thinking of what goes on behind closed doors. Which 1st off is none of their business and get your mind out of the gutter because believe it or not! All relationships are not, Yes I said Are Not based on sex!!!!
We all know of stories in the news of people coming together in love, and at death find out they were of a different sex when the autopsy was done. Everone claims how can you not know this? There are all kinds of relationships. Do not get caught in this judgemental trap. peace ranieri

I tried to rate this post, but was not allowed again, but wholeheartedly agree though I'm not that religious. Society created that paper, and love for one another is also possible without it, and nobody else's business.

Letmeno, you have all the support and blessings you need, so no worry! Will be thinking about you at Christmas.. ;)

[talaniman]

I followed this thread fom sept to now and just took in the advice given to you from a lot of carring people.I was truly impressed that so many could encourage and support without condenming.That you reached your goal in a slow and thoughtful way... was beautiful.In this world seeing a mature person grow and do the right is a Marvel in itself.--Thank you for sharing and good luck! :cool: :) :) :)

[STONY]

I Don't Think I Was Passing Judgment On Either Of You, But In My Lifetime I Have Been Through The Grinder More Than Once. I Hate To See Anyone Make The Same Stupid Mistakes I Did If At All Possible. A Long Time Ago I Fell In Love With A Beautiful Face, But Under The Skin, She Was Meaner Than A Rattlesnake. The Last Time I Saw Her Was At The Winchester Women's Correctional Facility In Va. I Made My Peace And Walked Away, Because I Knew If I Stayed With Her Another Year I'd Probably Kill Her And Spend The Rest Of My Life In A Virginia Jail.