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 Originally Posted by baidarka
As for me, I usually always say, just because some people are obsessed and love or worship material things, new ideas and have all kinds of short comings they failed to see from there lusts and impatience from status of wealth, power or greed still does not make them better people then anyone before them who also fell into perdition from been absorbed by there things which blinded them away from true happines, and while yet good people where around them as examples or they could of read a bible or even Koran or some other books with a little glimpse of hope for guidance . So, unless I totally do not believe in God. I would not exactly take the chance to argue with God's message unless I had solid proof for myself like JPII and others did. we all have our own deeds to face, no one else can take our place id we are evil can they, Jesus certainly never promised salvation to Satan or evil people so what makes some people think he will take the blame is a sin alone. |
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Shalom
I was born into my religion, so as I was growing up I witnessed many people and some of the lessons I myself would have learned the hard way if I did not have a Torah. But whether or not anyone has access to any scriptures or not, if they are honest they can themselves learn the lessons for we all have our own deeds whether Good, Bad, open or secret to live with. But over all, I agree with the statement you just made. |
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Originally Posted by Tower4Love
Just trying to understand the basis for your beliefs before I go any further. I don't want another G4-450 debacle... ;) Chris |
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Originally Posted by baidarka
On the one hand they will claim that the Bible writers were so ignorant and primitive that you can't believe a word they say. On the other hand they will claim that they were so smart and sophisticated that they could pull off The Forgery Of All Forgeries and get the entire world to fall for it. If you can't get one to stick, try the other! But if you just reason on what the Bible itself really says, without any kind of prejudice, I think you would find conclusive evidence that the Bible writers were exactly who they said they were and that what they wrote is true and accurate. And the really tough question that we haven't talked about is, how do you explain Biblical prophecy? And MORGANITE--I apologize for getting off topic! Chris |
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Originally Posted by chrisl
Yes indeed it is from the Qur'an, which also contains the laws (10 commandments) and lessons from the Torah. you can not judge a single word in a book without reading it can you? Koran [28.43] We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations, (to give) Insight to men, and guidance and Mercy, that they might receive admonition. [28.44] And thou (Muhammad) wast not on the western side (of the Mount) when We expounded unto Moses the commandment, and thou wast not among those present; [28.45] But We raised up generations, then life became prolonged to them; and you were not dwelling among the people of Madyan, reciting to them Our communications, but We were the senders. [28.46] And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, that they may be mindful. [28.47] If (We had) not (sent thee to the Quraish),- in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they might say: "Our Lord! why didst Thou not sent us a messenger? We should then have followed Thy Signs and been amongst those who believe!" [28.48] But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say: "For us, we reject all (such things)!" [28.49] Say: Then bring some (other) book from Allah which is a better guide than both of them, (that) I may follow it, if you are truthful. [28.50] But if they do not answer you, then know that they only follow their low desires; and who is more erring than he who follows his low desires without any guidance from Allah? Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. [28.51] And certainly We have made the word to reach them so that they may be mindful. [28.52] (As to) those whom We gave the Book before it, they are believers in it. [28.53] And when it is recited to them they say: We believe in it surely it is the truth from our Lord; surely we were submitters before this. It states clearly that the Torah was given to Moses and the people who followed it recognize the word of God also in the Qur'an when they heard it, but its was directed to warn and guide the Quraish tribe, and a example like all prior prophets sent to there people to guide them, read it yourself. The Bible Contains the 'Torah' (1st 5 books of Moses)known as the Hebrew Bible, yet "Targum Onqelos on the Five Books of Moses" where in Hebrew and Aramaic (arabic) with Hebrew Vowels to spell out the Tenach, these are the most important basis of Jewish beliefs and the holiest book. The Koran contains what is known (in) arabic as the 'Sharia' (laws) but actually means the same thing and repeats the same stories in the "Torah/Tenach" known to other faiths as the Hebrew Bible. to again Guide them back to the laws which it clearly states. Muslim is a verb, and in arabic actually means doing do the will of God, his commandments in the Torah. The Talmuds on the other hand which G4-450 keeps mentioning where Rabbinic corruption's and in only aramaic (arabic) an not at all Hebrew. The Gospels where also in Aramaic or simply Greek. Simple |
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Question for T4L
I quote from your posting to Christ:
We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed ... <snip> Is this God speaking as "We," or is it the Prophet and his companions? BTW - the Gospels were written in Koine, the commercial and common form of Greek that became the written language of Palestine and surrounding areas following the process of Hellenization that naturally followed in the wake of its conqueror, Alexander Magnus. Thank you in advance for your answer. MORGANITE :) |
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Originally Posted by Tower4Love
The Hebrew Scriptures, or Hebrew Bible, either term is acceptable, is properly called by Hebrews, TANAK, or Tenech, etc. depending on your version of Hebrew. The Tanak contains the Torah, or Pentateuch, and supplies the "T" in TNK. The "N" is supplied by the Nabiim (Prophets), and the "K" is supplied by the Ketrubim, or Writings). Thus, an acronym for Torak, Nabiim, Ketubim is formed from their first letters: TNK, with vowels added to allow it to be expressed vocally as Tanak, or some variation. The remainder of your sentence is disjointed and makes no sense. There is something missing and I am unable to determine your intention: [BOLD"yet "Targum Onqelos on the Five Books of Moses" where in Hebrew and Aramaic (arabic) with Hebrew Vowels to spell out the Tenach, these are the most important basis of Jewish beliefs and the holiest book."[/BOLD] You start to say something that the Tarrg. Onk. Says, but you do not complete the thought. Historically, there is evidence that the scribes were making oral paraphrases of the Hebrew Scriptures into the Aramaic vernacular as early as the time of Ezra (Neh. 8:1-8). These paraphrases were not strictly translations, but were actually aids in understanding the archaic language forms of the Torah. That is, the sense of what was written was translated, rather than the actual words. Words written on one language to express thoughts and ideas, hardly ever translate directly into another language if the meaning rather than the form is to be maintained. Literal translations become linguistic mush, but dynamic translations convey the writer's intention. The necessity for such translations arose because Hebrew was becoming less and less familiar to the ordinary people as a spoken language, but it was still spoiken. By the close of the last centuries B.C.E. this gradual process had continued until almost every book in the Old Testament had its oral paraphrase or interpretation (Targum). These are similar to commentaries and serve the same purpose. During the early centuries AD. these Targums were committed to writing, and an official text came to the fore, since the Hebrew canon, text, and interpretation had become well solidified before the rabbinical scholars of Jamnia (c. AD 90), and the expulsion of the Jews from Palestine in AD 135. The earliest Targums were apparently written in Palestinian Aramaic during the second century AD.; however, there is evidence of Aramaic Targums from the pre-Christian period. These early official Targums contained the Law (Torah) and the Prophets (Nebiim), but the Writings (Ketubim) were included in unofficial Targums in later times. It is interesting to note that a pre-Christian Targum of Job was written in Palestinian Aramaic and discovered in Cave 11 at Qumran. Cave 4 contained a Targum of the Pentateuch. These unofficial Aramaic Targums were superseded by official text in the second century AD. You mention Onkelos in your incomplete sentence. During the third century AD, there appeared in Babylonia an Aramaic Targum on the Torah. This Targum was possibly a recension of an earlier Palestinian tradition but may have originated in Babylonia. It has been traditionally ascribed to Onkelos (Ongelos), a name probably confused with Aquila (Aquila is the name of the scholar who made a slavishly literal Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament as a substitute for the LXX; the confusion of the names was undoubtedly enhanced by the rigid rendering of the text of this Targum, which is itself regarded as a recension by many scholars.) Another Babylonian Aramaic Targum accompanies the Prophets (Former and Latter), and is known as the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel. It dates from the fourth century AD, and is freer and more periphrastic in its rendering of the text. Both of those Targums were read in the synagogues: Onkelos along with the Torah, which was read in its entirety, and Jonathan along with selections from the Prophets (haphtaroth, pl.). Just as the Jews abandoned their native Hebrew tongue for Aramaic (In Jesus time they spoke Aramaic) in the Near East, so they abandoned the Aramaic in favor of Greek (Jesus quoted from the LXX) in such Hellenistic centers as Alexandria, Egypt. During the campaigns of Alexander the Great, the Jews were shown considerable favor. In fact, Alexander was sympathetic towards the Jews as a result of their policies toward him in the siege of Tyre (332 B.C.E.). It was during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus (after the death of Alexander the Great) that full political and religious rights were granted to the Jews. It was in that period (c. 250-c. 150 BCE), that the Hebrew Old Testament (Tanak) was translated into Greek-the first time it had ever been extensively translated. The leaders of Alexandrian Jewry had a standard Greek version produced, known as the LXX (It should be noted that the term Septuagint applies strictly to the Pentateuch, which was probably the only portion of the Old Testament translated during the time of Ptolemy II Philadelphus.), the Greek word for “seventy.” It was translated during the third and/or second centuries B.C.E. and was purported to have been written as early as the time of Ptolemy II in a Letter of Aristeas to Philocartes (c. 130-100 B.C.E.). Understanding the make-up of the Hebrew Scriptures is, as you suggest, simple, but only when you have the facts at your fingertips. It might be that you are aware of these facts and intended to include than rather than give the impression that you do now know them, which aspects of your post suggest,and that somehow your post became corrupted. If it does nothing else, it provides a vivid demonstration of how frail the art of copyists and scribes are, even when copying sacred texts. I will address one other poiint. You seem to indicate that Aramaic is Arabic, when you wrote of "Aramaic (Arabic) " That is absolutely not true. Aramaic was the lingua franca of much of the Near East from about 7th century BC until the 7th century AD, when it was largely replaced by Arabic. A thing cannot be replaced by itself! Classical or Imperial Aramaic was the main language of the Persian, Babylonian and Assyrian empires and spread as far as Greece and the Indus valley. After Alexander the Great destroyed the Persian Empire, Aramaic ceased to be the official language of any major state, though continued to be spoken widely. It was during this period that Aramaic split into western and eastern dialects. Aramaic was once the main language of the Jews and appears in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is still used as a liturgical language by Christian communities in Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, and is still spoken by small numbers of people in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, Armenia, Georgia and Syria. Aramaic has also been written in versions of the Latin, Hebrew and Cyrillic alphabets, though the Syriac is the most widely used script to write Aramaic. Arabic is an entirely different language. The Arabic script was derived from the Nabataean Aramaic script, and has been used since the 4th century AD, but the earliest document, which is an inscription in Arabic, Syriac and Greek, dates from 512 AD. The Aramaic language has fewer consonants than Arabic, so during the 7th century new Arabic letters were created by adding dots to existing letters in order to avoid ambiguities. Further diacritics indicating short vowels were introduced, but are only generally used to ensure the Qur'an was read aloud without mistakes. There are two main types of written Arabic: 1. Classical Arabic - the language of the Qur'an and classical literature. It differs from Modern Standard Arabic mainly in style and vocabulary, some of which is archaic. All Muslims are expected to recite the Qur'an in the Arabic. However many have to rely on translations to understand the text because they do not understand Arabic. 2. Modern Standard Arabic - the universal language of the Arabic-speaking world which is understood by all Arabic speakers. It is the language of the vast majority of written material and of formal TV shows, lectures, etc. MORGANITE :) |
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Originally Posted by morganStien
Koran [28.43] We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations, (to give) Insight to men, and guidance and Mercy, that they might receive admonition. Today, you're a example of the same generations then, still ignorant and never evolved to succeed in happiness. have you found any happiness yet besides the kicks you get from been devious and a liar? We do not need more racist like you willing to lie in order to attack Islam, Judaism or any other people you are terrorized about like the GErman Nazis where when they dragged there people into a hole from xenophobia. Bush, Ariel Sharon and the losers they sent to rid of to war have been enough problems to the climate this year, so before more hurricanes or earth-shakes hit California lets try to stick to the subject. You posted ca 'WE' trust the Koran, I take it you invited people who did not trust the koran but rather hoped pagans joined you with there obsessions in hoping to seek in there darkness by turning everything into a mystery in order to get a piece of the pie in the hear after. So try reading before you start copy pasting from the anti islam or anti jewish and just anti semitic websites skin heads who claim to be jews or muslims use as a way to start trouble between people online like your trying with lies. Here is a buddy of yours BTW :)  The son of Israel's prime minister has been formally indicted on corruption charges, the justice ministry has said. The indictment of Omri Sharon, announced last month, follows an investigation into corruption in the funding of his father's party. The charges relate to Ariel Sharon's 1999 bid to lead the Likud Party and to be its candidate for prime minister. Attention will be focused on how the charges affect the prime minister, who has consistently denied involvement. If found guilty, Omri Sharon faces up to five years in prison over charges of violating campaign finance laws. |
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Challenge to G4-450 - Time to prove your lies
You have written:
" .... "Morgentide" and his agenda for attacking the Qur'an while yet claiming that the Talmud is 100% clean ... " Two things. First, my name is MORGANITE. not MORGANSTEIN, not MORGANTIDE, and not any other of your insulting inventions. Second, I do not have an 'agenda,' either for attacking the Qur'an or for promoting the Talmud as 100% clean, whatever that is meant to mean. I have not attacked the Qur'an, and I have never made any representation whatsoever regarding the Talmud. That you say I have, means that you are a liar, and I now call on you to furnish supporting evidence for your allegations. He who lies to serve his God serves the Shaitan, and by doing so he spits on God and becomes Shaitan himself. I have challenged you to bring your evidence to support your statements about my 'agenda.' If you are a man, you will now tell the truth and admit that you are a liar. If you do not, then we shall all see what kind of person you are. MORGANITE |
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Yes you can trust koran
Why Koran can be trusted:
1- it is a religious book that never changed from more than 1400 years ; it is the same book that prophet Mohamed taught his followers ;after death of prophet Mohamed by nearly six month khalifa abu bakr decided to collect the Koran in one book because many of Koran memorizers were killed in wars so he charged one of the Muslims to handle the collecting of Koran from men's harts and sheets and he told him that any phrase to be written in the book it must be found written in sheets and have two witnesses on it that they must say it from memory so the mission was accomplished and the book was called moshaf that means a book contains Koran between its two ends and after khalifa abu bakr died by nearly 15 years khalifa authman made several copies of Koran and sent it to all Islamic regions ; so Koran never changed because it was kept in harts and sheets and today if you compared the copy of Koran with a Muslim in America you will find it the same as with a Muslim in china . 2- Koran is several miracles in one book ; it was a challenge for Arab the nation that had no skill before Islam except in poetry ;the Arab poets stood puzzled against challenge of Koran although Koran was made from the same language they speak but they could not fabricate something like it with its powerful structure and superior words and meanings and for non Arabs it was a miracle in sociality and morals and science and economy and all the fields that have human activity ; the meaning of Koran words are flexible and renewed that make Koran valid for every time and every place. To know more about Koran and Islam you can visit the following sites: www.Harunyahya.com www.Al-islam.com www.Islam-guide.com www.Islamworld.net www.Islamfinder.com www.Al-sunnah.com Thetruereligion.org www.Discover-islam.net |
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Well
Besides the fact that no science has superseded the Koran and even the bible, and the fact that the Koran clearly states that no science will be possibly superseded it even until the and of time before there own destruction, it is best to just seek the wisdom and guidance in it. The Abdul Yassuf Ali "meaning of the holy Koran" should be read a few times patiently with the commentaries, -Explained in detail are the times the revelations came to MOhammed, -Describing the situations and evidence against those who attacked him from the start -it refutes the lies that Mohammed was a quaresh when through out the koran they where theee pagans of mekah and Mohammed's very enemies after his uncle died, alike abraham he had to stick to his beliefs rather then how some people in these posts believe race, blood or genes have to do with there choices. -It contains direct links to the torah and gospels when they are mentioned as evidence against those who threatened the peace treaties and the consequences they paid before time with God, -It contains detailed revelations that became apparent hundreds of years after a actual koran existed like the world was round, the seas are split in two, places where things took place, evolution of man, the earth and the expansion of the universe but also goes further in proving it contains the same God of the Torah by greeting those of it who kept true to there word and provides them the proof to decide for themselves. -It also exposes and refutes all paganic systems and clearly explains them and there systematic limits based on there theories which could only bring short comings and hope rather then facts and truth sustainable as also the bible has but contains falsehood by mans hands in it. -It spells out what a hypocrite is in the bible and in the koran and how they seek powers or gains in argument, even go as far as killing over there own blind addictions to there materialism, ideologies and other ignorant reasons for power since they do not get God's blessing and are blindly un happy like satan all there lives unless they repent. -And finally it Guides people by making it clear that until peace tries after peace treaties are broken (which happened) then and only then would a believer cut off those who are rebellious, and also exposed any false muslims who believed others HAVE to be ones by teaching that God guides only just people . -Over all, the Koran states that it is the word of the same merciful God of the Bible, who will grant this life as test to all and give all a free choice to do what they wilt, and that this life is about many chances to repent but Terror in the bible and destruction of evil tyranny in many ways not perceived will be the same for the cursed non believers, -And for the west, we learned in the U.S. that it gave us meanings to things like freedom of speech, equal rights, scientology's and the use of the arabic number system and I can go on But my point is that we can not just simply judge the koran as false because some people here still live in the dark ages because they are addicted to false fairy tails that Jesus was not from the middle east and the theory of evolution as Hitler put to practice with GErmans been the best race and other ignorant things not yet but proved the enemies of the koran as well been the same of humanity which impulsively attack innocent lives from there own diseases like racism, which is the roots of all hatred and Satans very own kind. So I do not think the science in it the koran is going to convince people as much as the science in the Bible since they share the same stories and even though the koran has allot more to show, I think its best to look at some of the more advanced civilizations and ask how come they never superseded mother natures fury as we see the US coast getting smacked with and also predict worse to come. |
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You have written:
" .... "Morgentide" and his agenda for attacking the Qur'an while yet claiming that the Talmud is 100% clean ... " Two things. First, my name is MORGANITE. not MORGANSTEIN, not MORGANTIDE, and not any other of your insulting inventions. Second, I do not have an 'agenda,' either for attacking the Qur'an or for promoting the Talmud as 100% clean, whatever that is meant to mean. I have not attacked the Qur'an, and I have never made any representation whatsoever regarding the Talmud. That you say I have, means that you are a liar, and I now call on you to furnish supporting evidence for your allegations. He who lies to serve his God serves the Shaitan, and by doing so he spits on God and becomes Shaitan himself lie me. :) I have challenged you to bring your evidence to support your statements about my 'agenda.' even though i have posted many aims of mine which contradicted my points into arguments to confuse you from the truth. If you are a man, you will now tell the truth and admit that you are a liar. If you do not, then we shall all see what kind of person you are. MORGANITE Originally Posted by Morganite
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Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Just look at all the MORGANSTIENS from the labs of man made things and compare them to the universe, then you may understand God. |
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Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Since when could age change a person in sin today from a person in sin 3000 years ago who also loved idols enough to consider them a God of Worship and willing to kill anyone or fight for them (money, cars, power etc. sins)? No difference at all, they still lie in the hopes that they will win there argument to live recklessly on the bottle like babies but replaced with alcohol. Now I remind you I believe people can have there free choice, but have you found anyone attacking you or others who idol worship and put there trust in everything BUT mother nature and God who created it? I have yet to even prove Mohammed did. So it's the other way around, a reckless person will start the wars and destroy everything in a tantrum just like a baby for the things he or she depends on for happiness (money, power, sex etc etc. SINS), and they do this blindly with out been aware they are sick. Originally Posted by NeedKarma
But not to surprise you with the cold truth, I am not asking you change for me, or going to lie like others around here with the Christmas wishful thinking to pacify stubborn sinners in hopes that one of these idols can be replaced with another to pass the pain of a false promise, I will say though, that accepting the One True God for all humanity is like accepting that everything in the world Is God's and learning to live in it with others as yourself, think about this and where the word Peace comes from now, again only you and yourself can reach this conclusion and come out of the cartoon cocoon. |
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