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    Hope12's Avatar
    Hope12 Posts: 159, Reputation: 25
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    #1

    Aug 31, 2005, 12:03 PM
    Here a question for you:
    Hello,


    Is Jesus the son of God or is Jesus God? What does the Bible say?

    Take care,
    Hope12
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #2

    Aug 31, 2005, 02:59 PM
    I've seen your many questions lately, and recognize that they're not really questions, but comments designed to generate discussion...

    You ask "Is Jesus the son of God or is Jesus God? What does the Bible say?"

    It's easy to look up what the Bible says, but since Jesus was here about 300 years before the Bible, aren't there other sources to answer the question?
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #3

    Aug 31, 2005, 08:56 PM
    Who is Jesus.
    The Bible is the only reliable source I have on that question and it clearly says that Jesus in God the Son of God.
    He is the anointed Word of God in whom all things were created, the Messiah, the Christ. See the first few verses of the gospel of John.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
    :)
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #4

    Sep 1, 2005, 04:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura
    He is the anointed Word of God in whom all things were created, the Messiah, the Christ. :)
    Amen.

    But gosh, what did the Christians of the first 3 centuries rely on I wonder?
    chrisl's Avatar
    chrisl Posts: 83, Reputation: 2
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    #5

    Sep 1, 2005, 06:02 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by rickj
    But gosh, what did the Christians of the first 3 centuries rely on I wonder?
    I'm not sure what your point is here. Is it your belief that the early Christian congregations did not have access to the scriptures?

    They certainly had the Hebrew scriptures, or the "Old Testament", in the form of the LXX (Septuagint.) Those are the scriptures Jesus used and quoted. The Christian Greek scriptures, or "New Testament", were distributed to the congregations in their original form as copies of the letters and writings of the apostles and disciples. There is evidence of such copies dated as early as the 1st century CE--within decades of the writing of the originals. Remarkably fast distribution for that day and age!

    Perhaps you mean they didn't have the full body of scriptures in one convenient source as we do in the Bibles we use today?

    Chris
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #6

    Sep 1, 2005, 06:20 AM
    OK, I'll confess. I was posting "in kind" to the many recent posts of Hope12 - which I saw as not really questions, but rhetoric.

    Christ, rather than writing a book, founded a Church. This Church decided which of the many writings that were circulating amongst the churches were certainly Divinely inspired; and called these Scripture.

    His Church did, and does today, affirm that Scripture is full of Truth and without error, however the claim that it is the only authority is not supported by Christ or His Church.

    In fact, there are more exhortations to seek the guidance of The Church and it's leaders in the Bible than there are to Scripture itself.

    ... so I, like Hope12, am just preachin' a little :p
    chrisl's Avatar
    chrisl Posts: 83, Reputation: 2
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    #7

    Sep 1, 2005, 07:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by rickj
    In fact, there are more exhortations to seek the guidance of The Church and it's leaders in the Bible than there are to Scripture itself.
    I'd be interested to see what scriptural support you have for this statement. I can't help but recall how many times Jesus himself referred people (and even Satan) to the scriptures saying "It is written..." or "Is it not written...?"

    It is true that the authority of the congregations, or The Church as you say, is vital but surely you do not mean to imply that such authority exceeds the scriptures? That cannot be. If a Church teaching conflicts with the scriptures, the scriptures are the final authority. (John 17:17; Acts 5:29)

    Chris
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #8

    Sep 1, 2005, 08:24 AM
    First of all, let me interject. May the True Peace and Joy of Christ be with all sincere Christians. Amen.

    OK, so I shouldn't have said what you quoted since I'm not willing to count them.

    ... and even if I were right, it wouldn't make my point very well anyway... so I'll jump ahead to my real point.

    As you've probably figured by now, I am speaking of Sola Scriptura, which is simply not even hinted at in Scripture.

    If the Bible were the sole authority, then somewhere within it we should find that it is so.

    But we do not.

    I don't remember my Logic101 very well, but wouldn't this be thesis be considered as either false or illogical?

    Further, Christ's words do not apply here. When He was speaking of Scripture, he was speaking of extant Scripture. And to boot, even He did not say it was the sole authority even then.

    Yes, I know it is an argument that's been debated for several centuries, but nonetheless I get an itchin' to get in on it every once in awhile...
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #9

    Sep 1, 2005, 08:54 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by rickj
    May the True Peace and Joy of Christ be with all sincere Christians.
    See that's where I differ from you - I wish true peace to all, not just christians. People are people, no matter what religion, color, nationality.
    chrisl's Avatar
    chrisl Posts: 83, Reputation: 2
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    #10

    Sep 1, 2005, 09:38 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by rickj
    Yes, I know it is an argument that's been debated for several centuries, but nonetheless I get an itchin' to get in on it every once in awhile...
    Hey, I'd like to "get in on it" too. Let's not let a few centuries get in the way! :)

    If the Bible were the sole authority, then somewhere within it we should find that it is so... But we do not.
    Do you mean the Bible itself making the claim to being the sole authority? If so, consider these NT passages:

    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. -- 2 Timothy 3:16-17

    For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. -- Revelation 22:18-19
    Paul's letter points out that the scriptures make one "complete" to carry out "every" good work. And Jesus' words in Revelation emphasize how seriously God views the authority of the scriptures. Nothing can be added or taken away from them. I think together these two passages make a very strong argument for Sola Scriptura.

    And consider Jesus' warning to the Pharisees about giving traditional teachings more emphasis than God's word:

    For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men--the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition...making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do." -- Mark 7:8,9,13
    I have to agree with Jesus' view of scriptural authority.

    Now, this is not to say that God doesn't reveal the meaning of scripture--especially prophecy--to his servants at a later date (see Dan 12:8-9; Habakkuk 2:2-3; 1 Corinthians 13:9-12), but I know of nothing that would suggest that such revelation is based on anything other than the scripture.

    Further, Christ's words do not apply here. When He was speaking of Scripture, he was speaking of extant Scripture.
    But if God were to inspire more scripture--as he eventually did--surely we would follow Jesus' example and give it the same respect. After all, they are the work of the same Author.

    And to boot, even He did not say it was the sole authority even then.
    Can you provide scriptures on this point? I'd be interested to learn the source of this teaching.

    Chris
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #11

    Sep 2, 2005, 03:06 AM
    1st to NeedKarma:

    I do indeed wish Peace on all. My statement was within the contect of this post to help set the mood... to affirm that my disagrements are not condemnations.

    If you and I were debating about who God is, I would likewise early in the argument confirm the same.
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #12

    Sep 2, 2005, 03:36 AM
    Chris, I haven't figured yet how to "quote selected text" - and not the whole thing. How you do dat? :confused:

    Even when I was Protestant I never understood the heavy leaning on
    2 Timothy 3:16-17 as the main reference to support SS.

    What in it leads one to believe it implies it's the sole authority?

    Paul confirmed that the Scripture that existed at the time was
    1. Inspired by God, and
    2. Useful.

    300 years later, the teaching Church that Christ founded confirmed that Paul's letters to Timothy, too, were to be added to Scripture. So we can now say Timothy's writing was
    1. Inspired by God, and
    2. Useful.

    So, again, where do we get that we should take this to mean the only authority?

    And Revelation? That's a dual-edged sword.

    He said "If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book". By "this book" he was not referring to what we know today as the Bible. He was referring to the "book" he just wrote.

    You're not implying that he was speaking of Scripture, are you? If you are, then we're all doomed, because The Church has added to scripture.
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #13

    Sep 2, 2005, 04:27 AM
    I haven't figured yet how to "quote selected text" - and not the whole thing. How you do that? :confused:
    I can help you with that. :)

    When you choose to reply by using the Quote button you'll notice that the previous poster's text is "wrapped" by [ quote] at the beginning and [ /quote] at the end. What I do is removed both those "tags" which makes it just like regular text.

    Now here comes the neat fun part. Remove the text that you won't be commenting on (highlight it and press Delete). Now highlight the part of text that you wish to quote and click on the Quote icon at the top right, the one that looks like cartoon talk bubble. That's it, you've quoted selected text.

    Experiment, use the Preview button to see what it looks like before you post.

    Cheers.
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #14

    Sep 2, 2005, 07:47 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    I can help you with that. :)
    Thanks NeedKarma... duh Rick :o... just delete what you don't want to post! :D
    chrisl's Avatar
    chrisl Posts: 83, Reputation: 2
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    #15

    Sep 2, 2005, 08:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by rickj
    What in it leads one to believe it implies it's the sole authority?

    Paul confirmed that the Scripture that existed at the time was
    1. Inspired by God, and
    2. Useful.
    Well, those are only two of the points he makes. Let's look at 2 Tim 3:16-17 and highlight some other relevant points.

    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
    First of all, Paul says that "All Scripture" is God's word. For us today, "All Scripture" includes both the Hebrew (OT) and Christian Greek (NT). Paul goes on to say the scriptures are to be used for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction. This would make a Christian "complete" and "thoroughly equipped for every good work." If the Bible is to be used for "doctrine" and "correction" and to make one complete for every good work, would you not agree that it is the authority to be used by Christians to resolve conflicts in teachings and traditions?

    And it's important not to focus just on this scripture. What does the rest of the Bible say? What examples do we have? If the examples of Jesus and the apostles and disciples are taken into consideration, I believe the pattern that Christians are to follow is very clear. Without exception, they all relied on the scriptures and were careful that their teachings not go beyond what God said in them. For example:

    These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. -- Acts 17:11

    Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. -- 1 Corinthians 4:6

    But maybe I don't fully understand your view point. Is it your opinion that the NT is incomplete or not canonical in some way? Or that later teachings and traditions would eventually have the same authority as the Bible?

    Let me ask this: if a tradition or teaching of a church is found to contradict the scriptures, which has the greater authority?

    And Revelation?. By "this book" he was not referring to what we know today as the Bible. He was referring to the "book" he just wrote.
    Yes, but this principle applies to all the scriptures. Otherwise, we would have to believe that God is saying, "You are free to modify my other words, but not Revelation." Is that possible? Consider these:

    "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. -- Deuteronomy 12:32

    Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar -- Proverbs 30:6

    But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. -- Galatians 1:8

    You're not implying that he was speaking of Scripture, are you? If you are, then we're all doomed, because The Church has added to scripture.
    No, we're only doomed if we nullify scripture in favor of tradition.

    But again, I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying the addition of the NT as a whole to the scriptures was somehow improper, or are you referring to traditions and teachings that were added later? If you are questioning the authenticity of the NT, then that's more than I can address within the limits of this forum, but if you mean the later teachings, I definitely agree.

    It then becomes a question of whether to abandon teachings and traditions that contradict scripture.

    Which leads to the question, do you think that all forms of worship are acceptable to God? If so, then you likely don't see a need to question any teaching. But if not, you must be careful to evaluate your worship. The Bible definitely teaches the latter view: God sets the standards for acceptable worship and we must meet them, not the other way around.

    Even in Jesus' day his disciples had to choose between the worship Jesus taught and the worship the Jewish leaders taught. We have the same issue today. If we find that our form of worship does not please God--perhaps it is incomplete or even incorrect--we need to make the needed corrections.

    The account of Priscilla, Aquilla and Apollos (Acts 18:24-28) is interesting because Priscilla and Aquilla corrected a misconception that Apollos had about a Christian teaching. The example for us is that if we have an improper understanding of a Christian teaching, we should be willing to correct it.

    Take care,
    Chris
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #16

    Sep 2, 2005, 07:52 PM
    Sorry chrisl but you statement is in error.
    The statement in Revelation regards that book only.
    Rev.22: 19. And if anyone takes words away from THIS book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
    Revelation was written long before the entire Bible was put together.
    Also Sola Scriptora is non biblical. The Bible even mentions another authority than it.
    See the books of Timothy to find it. Hint: It is the pillar or ground of the truth.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
    s_cianci's Avatar
    s_cianci Posts: 5,472, Reputation: 760
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    #17

    Sep 5, 2005, 06:12 PM
    Jesus is referred to as the "Son of God." However, he is not the "son" of God in the same sense that you are the son (or daughter) of your parents. Jesus is God incarnate ; thus he is fully God and also fully human. He is equal in power and stature to God the Father ; that part of the trinity that's often referred to as simply "God." Jesus is referred to as "son" because he willingly subordinated himself to the will of the Father, just as a good earthly son or daughter would willingly subordinate him/herself to the will of his/her earthly father and mother.
    chrisl's Avatar
    chrisl Posts: 83, Reputation: 2
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    #18

    Sep 5, 2005, 07:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura
    The Bible even mentions another authority than it. See the books of Timothy to find it. Hint: It is the pillar or ground of the truth.
    I assume you mean 1 Tim 3:15 which reads:

    but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. (NKJV)
    I find no permission here for anyone to supersede God's Word. It says that the Christian congregation is the pillar and ground of the truth, which is simply Paul's way of agreeing with Jesus' statement that those who worship God acceptably do so "in spirit and truth." (John 4:23-24) What truth? You will find Jesus' answer at John 17:17.

    What do you see in this passage that leads you to say that any Christian congregation has the same or greater authority than the Bible?

    Chris
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    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #19

    Sep 5, 2005, 07:17 PM
    s_cianci and God the Son
    Since Jesus Christ referred to himself as the Son and as God the Father as His Father I see no reason why we should change what the Bible records that Jesus said. "The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
    Of course you are welcome to your opinion as everyone else is.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura) :)
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #20

    Sep 5, 2005, 07:40 PM
    Chrisl and the pillar and foundation of the truth.
    Since the word of God says that The Church is" the pillar and foundation of the truth" (NIV) The Church also is an authority on what is the truth.

    If you don't believe that just ask The Church. It was even given the inspirational authority to compile the books of holy sacred Scripture into what we call the Holy Bible.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura) :)

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