[talaniman]

what you are really saying is that you have chosen not to believe in the Bible, and that from your standpoint God is incomprehensible.

I am not christian and don't believe in the bible. I do believe in God, which makes your statement inaccurate.

Which of course opens up the way for the anything goes way of life. How convenient!

Sorry Stardude, My personal relationship with God, prevents me from doing just anything.

[yamotnako]

[QUOTE=Starman]Since we Christians have the Bible, which we consider God's message to mankind revealing his requiremernts and his personality so that we can serve him, what you are really saying is that you have chosen not to believe in the Bible,

I am a Catholic and I didn't say I don't believe in the Bible. Though word of God is written in it... It is MAN who wrote it... and knowing an old culture especially from middle east... don't you think it has been altered a little bit and it came from a different language... how does one know the translation we are reading is the real message that was written... when it was first translated... it was the time when nobody has a voice but those who were in higher position... Let's say a phrase like "Those who believe in Me will be saved"... what if you're not a Christian?. and you believe in another religion... but all your life you didn't hurt anybody... would that mean that you cannot be saved?. I think being a good person which usually have guilt feelings if he did something wrong and admit his wrong and ask for forgiveness is enough requirement.

[Wangdoodle]

I am a Catholic and I didn't say I don't believe in the Bible. Though word of God is written in it...It is MAN who wrote it...and knowing an old culture especially from middle east...don't you think it has been altered a little bit and it came from a different language...how does one know the the translation we are reading is the real message that was written...when it was first translated...it was the time when nobody has a voice but those who were in higher position... Let's say a phrase like "Those who believe in Me will be saved"...what if you're not a Christian?...and you believe in another religion...but all your life you didn't hurt anybody...would that mean that you cannot be saved?...I think being a good person which usually have guilt feelings if he did something wrong and admit his wrong and ask for forgiveness is enough requirement.

You may be interested in reading what the Catechism of the Catholic church says about the necessity of faith in salvation. Paragraphs 161, 162. And about Sacred Scripure. Paragraphs 101-133.

[Starman]

I am not christian and don't beleive in the bible. I do believe in God, which makes your statement inaccurate.

Sorry Stardude, My personal relationship with God, prevents me from doing just anything.

Clarrification:

Not that Bible rejection leads to doing anything without restriction. Simply that the restrictions of a Bible rejector need not harmonize with the Bible principles but can deviate at the person's discretion.

Example: If a person rejects the USA Constitution and chooses to make his own laws some of those laws might be contrary to what he Constitution says. It doesn't mean that he will do this, simply that his rejection of the Constitution opens up the way for this possibility to become a reality.

[talaniman]

Clarrification:

Not that Bible rejection leads to doing anything without restriction. Simply that the restrictions of a Bible rejector need not harmonize with the Bible principles but can deviate at the person's discretion.

Fair enough. My point is that the God that I understand wants me to give Gay people as much respect as I do to christians, jews, and muslims, soccer moms, and any other human.

[Starman]

Fair enough. My point is that the God that I understand wants me to give Gay people as much respect as I do to christians, jews, and muslims, soccer moms, and any other human.

If by respect you mean not persecuting them or harassing them or depriving them of their rights to be self sufficient via violating their citizen rights or human rights-or otherwise being cruel simply because of their chosen lifestyle then I agree. However, if by respect you mean that we as Christians are under obligation not to point out what we believe God considers sinful, but should remain silent in order to show respect then I disagree, I guess that's where we differ.

As for love, the Bible tells us that making known God's requirements is an expression of agape love since it opens up the way to eternal life. In fact, keeping silent when we perceive another human being is in danger spiritually or is headed the wrong way is a sin. So it's not from a hating basis that Christians are making known God's requirements but from a position of concern for the eternal welfare of our fellow man.

[talaniman]

So it's not from a hating basis that Christians are making known God's requirements but from a position of concern for the eternal welfare of our fellow man.

So its okay to lead the horse to water but if he doesn't choose to drink, Now what??

[retsoksirhc]

However, if by respect you mean that we as Christians are under obligation not to point out what we believe God considers sinful, but should remain silent in order to show respect then I disagree, I guess that's where we differ.

I could swear that somewhere in the bible it says "Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Hmm.

[Starman]

I could swear that somewhere in the bible it says "Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Hmm.

You feel judged? Wonder why?

[Starman]

So its okay to lead the horse to water but if he doesn't choose to drink, Now what????

Now he or she lives his or her life the way he or she wants to. Or is there something additional which I am supposed to do and am unaware of? Pray tell!

[talaniman]

Now he or she lives his or her life the way he or she wants to. Or is there something additional which I am supposed to do and am unaware of? Pray tell!

No, just wanted an honest answer as to how far you'd go if the horse refused to drink. That's all. Take no offense, as my beef has always been with policy not people. If a simple and polite NO THANKS works when offered to drink from anothers cup its all good. That's not always the case, and not exclusive to christians either.

[retsoksirhc]

You feel judged? Wonder why?

I wasn't saying that I feel judged. In fact, I don't. I'm not really sure where you got that from. I'm just saying, it's not up to people to judge each other. If you're christian, then you can't decide what is sin and what isn't. You can interpret to your best ability what you think the bible says is sin, but since it does not state flat out that homosexuality is a sin, people have no right to infer that it is. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone upon her, judge not lest ye be judged, all that. It's up to God to judge whether something is a sin, and Jesus to forgive someone of that sin, if they are worthy.

And no, I'm not a Christian.

[yamotnako]

You may be interested in reading what the Catechism of the Catholic church says about the necessity of faith in salvation. Paragraphs 161, 162. And about Sacred Scripure. Paragraphs 101-133.

Thanks... even though I'm a catholic I don't believe in everything my church told me to believe in... that's why God gave us brain... so we can think for ourselves... coz if we don't... there would be only one Christian meta group and that would be Roman-Catholic. But since not everybody agreed with what they did... groups have been created or founded.

Anyway... as I've said... God loves all of his creation/children. And nobody or nothing can say otherwise.

[yamotnako]

BTW

No Christian on this forum has represented God as unforgiving. What has been clearly pointed out is that he has requirements which he expects us to respectfully pay attention to. The unforgiving idea is your own.

Didn't notice this before... requirements... all I know is God gave us hearts and brains so they could work together... you're not going to do something intentionally when you know it's going to hurt someone... are you?. I think that's the requirement needed... and besides... the requirements you're talking about... what if you failed to follow it... what then?. what if you failed to follow what the bible says... what then?. yeah... God is uncomprehensible... coz nobody really knows what He all of his thoughts are...

[Starman]

didn't notice this before...requirements...all i know is God gave us hearts and brains so they could work together...you're not going to do something intentionally when you know it's going to hurt someone...are you?...I think that's the requirement needed...and besides...the requirements you're talking about...what if you failed to follow it...what then?...what if you failed to follow what the bible says...what then?...yeah...God is uncomprehensible...coz nobody really knows what He all of his thoughts are...

God gave Adam a brain and a heart yet God required Adam to use that brain and heart in the way that he was instructed to.

Genesis 2:16-18 (New King James Version)

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
18 And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”

Not purposefdully harming others is a good rule. However, the word "harm" can mean many different things to many different people. That's why the Bible gives us details so that we can all be of the same mind in matters of such importance. Otherwise every man becomes a law unto himself and that leads to moral chaos which is incompatible with a God of order.

1 Corinthians 14:33 "God is not the author of confusion.

Philippians 3:16
Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.


The requirements and their consequences if not adhered to are no mystery to those who take the time to read the Bible. They are expressed clearly and are easily understood. Most probably what you really mean is that you don't agree with the requirements and the consequences as described in the Bible, prefer to cast the book aside as of little worth in reference to your moral decisions, and prefer to think God is incomprehensible. All of which is OK since you have a right to your opinion as I have a right to disagree with it.

Actually, this is nothing new:

Psalm 78:10
They did not keep the covenant of God;They refused to walk in His law,

Psalm 81:12
So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart,To walk in their own counsels.



BTW
If you don't wish to run into what you consider annoying biblical requirements why participate in a Biblical discussion forum?

[yamotnako]

BTW
If you don't wish to run into what you consider annoying biblical requirements why participate in a Biblical discussion forum?

The person who asked about the gay people didn't ask about the bible... but since Christians based everything on the bible... you're using quotes from the old testament... but shouldn't you be using the new testament? Since Christianity is really based on it?. and since you're using the old testament... I didn't read about not to be gay in the 10 commandments... isn't it the ultimate requirement?. and from what I know there's only one rule in the old testament... the golden rule... "Treat others only in ways that you're willing to be treated in the same exact situation"...

[Starman]

the person who asked about the gay people didn't ask about the bible...but since Christians based everything on the bible...you're using quotes from the old testament...but shouldn't you be using the new testament? since Christianity is really based on it?...and since you're using the old testament....i didn't read about not to be gay in the 10 commandments...isn't it the ultimate requirement?...and from what i know there's only one rule in the old testament...the golden rule ..."Treat others only in ways that you're willing to be treated in the same exact situation"...

There are three words in the questioner's question that require a biblical response-God, Christians, and judgemental.

Again, since this is a Christian discussion forum. To come here and expect everyone to ignore scripture which Christians consider sacred is irrational. It is also untrue that Christians only accept the NT. Christians accept the whole Bible as inspired of God and minister routinely quote liberally from both. It is considered ONE inspired book with one author-God and one message--salvation. Christianity is the culmination of all the things mentioned in the OT. A Bible study would be helpful in helping you to apreciate that very important fact.

No, there is no specific mention of homosexuality in the brief synopsis of the Ten Commandments. But there is mention in the detailed instructions based on the Ten commandments in the book of Deuteronomy and even in the New Testament itself. Or haven't you read either?

But as I said previously and on many other occasions, whether people want to pay attention to it or not is their personal choice. However, it's quite another thing to proclaim things which the Bible clearly tells us not to do as OK and demand that those who know better agree with you as you are doing. Might as well write your own "holy" book where all behavior YOU consider OK is approved. Ever consider that?


I can show you the scriptures referring to what you claim isn't found in the NT if you want me to. But considering your attitude, that would just further infuriate you or cause you to go into that accusatory mode of being judged by me.-which is absurd since I don't qualify for that particular judge of all humanity position.

BTW

That treat others as you want others to treat you is open to diverse cultural interpretations. That's why the Bible goes into specifics. And that's where you get annoyed.

[Starman]

I wasn't saying that I feel judged. In fact, I don't. I'm not really sure where you got that from. I'm just saying, it's not up to people to judge each other. If you're christian, then you can't decide what is sin and what isn't. You can interpret to your best ability what you think the bible says is sin, but since it does not state flat out that homosexuality is a sin, people have no right to infer that it is. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone upon her, judge not lest ye be judged, all that. It's up to God to judge wether somthing is a sin, and Jesus to forgive someone of that sin, if they are worthy.

And no, I'm not a Christian.

If you are not a Christian then why worry about what Christians say about your lifestyle? If I weren't a Christian I wouldn't give a frogs fat about what the Bible says or doesn't say. Neither would I be reading it or even mentioning it even less discussing it or debating it if I thought it was as disorganized and as open to all and any interpretation as you do. I would just live my life as I saw fit and let others waste their time with a book I considered veritably worthless. Make sense?

[retsoksirhc]

if you are not a Christian then why worry about what Christians say about your lifestyle? If I weren't a Christian I wouldn't give a frogs fat about what the Bible says or doesn't say. Neither would I be reading it or even mentioning it even less discussing it or debating it if I thought it was as disorganized and as open to all and any interpretation as you do. I would just live my life as I saw fit and let others waste their time with a book I considered veritably worthless. Make sense?

If I don't know anything about it, how am I supposed to know if I believe in it? And contrary to what christians might say about "my lifestyle," I'm not gay. Just because I believe that homosexuals should not be discriminated against, either in society OR in the christian religion, that doesn't mean I'm gay. In fact, I'm not even bisexual. I'm *gasp* straight! Just because I don't consider myself a Christian doesn't mean I shouldn't care about the bible. If you're not a Buddhist, should you not give a rats arse about inner peace? And I never said it was disorganized. Though you mention that I think it's open to all and any interpretation. I guess I was wrong about that. There is only one form of Christianity. All those different denominations of christian churches don't actually exist, I must have imagined them. I may not believe that everything stated in the bible is true, but it does teach several good lessons. Kudos go to christians who take those lessons into consideration (And I'm not talking about the psudo-christians like at the church I used to attend. You know the type... they're Christian on Sunday morning. The rest of the week, apparently God can't see what they're doing)

My point is, just because I don't consider myself a Christian doesn't mean I can't learn about Christianity. Knowing facts about what you don't believe is what makes arguments valid. If you can't see thing from another persons point of view, then what chance do you have of showing where you disagree and why? It would be like yelling at a brick wall.

As for the mention of my interpretation of what the bible says about humans judging each other, feel free to disagree. But like I said, see it from my point of view. Explain to me why you think that interpreation is invalid. Don't just say I shouldn't be interpreting it because I don't consider myself a Christian. It's almost as if you think saying "Oh, you don't believe? Well **** you then" will help someone spiritually. That's how I perceive this post, at least. Feel free to disagree with me, but only if you plan to give an explanation of your reasoning so that I might try to understand where your opinion comes from.

Sorry if I sound like an arse, but you CAN'T just tell me to F off (in a matter of speaking) without giving me a reason. The internet is about open exchange of information, and AMHD is about helping others, not telling them they shouldn't be in a specific forum.

I look forward to reading your well thought out reply.

[Ash123]

Fear.