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    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #1

    Aug 15, 2007, 07:38 PM
    Cows or humans?
    As a Christian, I believe that God created humans to be superior and above all animals [Genesis], even angels; and because of this human life is precious.

    Humans did not come from the same primordial muck that all other animals came from as evolutionists and a lot of scientists will have you believe.


    My question is to evolutionists, agnostics, atheists, perhaps non-Christians, who avidly call in to question Christian beliefs, and seem to be active on the "Christian" threads:

    If you believe that humans are like other animals [a bunch of chemicals and molecules],
    Is the daily slaughter of cows [ which probably ranges in the thousands ] worse than the 32 dead in one day at Virginia Tech ?


    If you answer 'no' then why?:confused:






    Grace and Peace
    shygrneyzs's Avatar
    shygrneyzs Posts: 5,017, Reputation: 936
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    #2

    Aug 15, 2007, 08:05 PM
    First, I would ask that you correct yourself in saying that humans are above the angels. They are not. Humans are above the creatures of the earth and sea and air. That is in Genesis.

    The other part of your post, I cannot address, as I am one of those who believe while God created man in His own image, there definitely has been some evolution to the being called man. Just look at prehistoric man and modern man.
    iloveLf221's Avatar
    iloveLf221 Posts: 62, Reputation: 5
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    #3

    Aug 15, 2007, 08:14 PM
    However I do believe in evolution, and I have been in a Catholic family and I have been one since birth, cows may have similar characteristics or molecular structures as humans, but there is a big difference between a farm animal and a human being. So no, I don't agree. The slaughter at Virginia Tech is FAR different than the killing of cows, if one human, God, perhaps, can create the earth in seven days, I would certainly like to see a cow try and create something other than a burger. The lives that were lost at Virginia Tech could've been something great, so I would change my "theory" of humans not coming from the same "primordial muck" in which you speak of.
    shygrneyzs's Avatar
    shygrneyzs Posts: 5,017, Reputation: 936
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    #4

    Aug 15, 2007, 08:16 PM
    It is difficult to compare cows to humans and especially with the masacre at Vriginia Tech. I do not think you would find even a hard core evolutionist who would say that humans and cows are on the same level here. You are asking for an extremely unfair comparison.
    iloveLf221's Avatar
    iloveLf221 Posts: 62, Reputation: 5
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    #5

    Aug 15, 2007, 08:18 PM
    And if human life is so precious, then why are you comparing it to animals who are "below"
    Us? I think that you are contradicting yourself there.
    iloveLf221's Avatar
    iloveLf221 Posts: 62, Reputation: 5
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    #6

    Aug 15, 2007, 08:23 PM
    I agree with shygrneyzs, cows are certainly not on the same "level" as humans, bluntly they are two very different creatures.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #7

    Aug 15, 2007, 08:42 PM
    What sort of mixed up logic is this? God gave humans animals for food, so the death of cattle is not to be compare with the death of humans.
    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #8

    Aug 15, 2007, 09:31 PM
    Appreciate the replies.

    I believe in God, and most of what science tells us. I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

    BUT

    I don't believe in what science tells us about the origins of life, that is evolution;
    and science's implication that there is no afterlife or there is no God, because, we Christians, don't have "scientific proof."

    Why would an evolutionist or an agnostic scientist value human life over that of a cow?
    They tell us that humans are from the same "tree" as monkeys, cows, etc..





    Grace and Peace
    Marily's Avatar
    Marily Posts: 457, Reputation: 51
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    #9

    Aug 15, 2007, 11:54 PM
    inthebox you say that you are a christian so I take it that you belief the bible, don't worry about what science say, yes science can't proof that there is a God, but we as christians by faith know that there is. This is my opinion
    Capuchin's Avatar
    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #10

    Aug 16, 2007, 12:08 AM
    I fail to see your problem inthebox. Cows are different to humans, just not in such an absolute sense as you believe. They're still different though.

    Yes there's nothing special about humans, except that they are our own species. Elephants grieve when a member of their herd dies, but give very little consequence to killing humans and other animals. It's a natural thing to be able to sympathise with your own species plight more than any other species.
    Capuchin's Avatar
    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #11

    Aug 16, 2007, 12:33 AM
    I also have a question for you, if you accept most of science, why do you not accept evolution? Only because it goes against your faith? If so, then what are you basing your belief in the rest of science on?
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
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    #12

    Aug 16, 2007, 01:14 AM
    That's an accusation that you cast my way as well and is totally baseless. Why must you constantly portray believers in God as ignoramuses who believe things merely on blind faith? That kind of argument, is fallacious, direspectful, and doesn't get your point across very well. Why not instead respectfully accept that there are intelligent people, scientists who have credentials with which your own might pale, people who believe in God because they are more convinced by the evidence AGAINST godless evolution then by the evidence which is presented to support it?

    Just as a reminder, here is a [tiresome] list of scientists who believed in a creator and many of whom didn't see any sense in abiogenesis.



    THE WORLD'S GREATEST CREATION SCIENTISTS
    From Y1K to Y2K



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    By David F. Coppedge
    c. 2000 David F. Coppedge, Master Plan Productions


    Table of Contents
    “O Lord, how manifold are Thy works! In wisdom hast Thou made them all: the earth is full of Thy riches.” – Psalm 104:24

    “The works of the Lord are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein.” – Psalm 111:2

    INTRODUCTION
    Everyday life in 1000 A.D.
    What this study can do for you
    Some clarifications
    The Origins of Science: Contrasting World Views

    THE EARLY CHRISTIAN ROOTS OF MODERN SCIENCE

    The Medieval Philosophers: Hugh, Ockham, Oresme
    Robert Grosseteste – Nature is knowable
    Roger Bacon – Experiment is the key
    Leonardo da Vinci – Master of all trades
    Sir Francis Bacon – Pathfinder to truth relies on God's word
    Johannes Kepler – Thinking God's thoughts after Him
    Galileo Galilei – Enemy not of Biblical truth, but of human tradition
    William Harvey – Surgeon to King James reveals secrets of the circulatory system

    SCIENCE TAKES OFF IN ALL DIRECTIONS

    Blaise Pascal – The short-lived genius, passionate for Christ Jesus
    Robert Boyle – Leading experimenter leaves a legacy to fight skepticism
    Sir Isaac Newton – Left the universe a different place, in answer to prayer
    Antony van Leeuwenhoek – The shop merchant in awe of God's tiny creatures
    Carolus Linnaeus – Organizer of the Genesis kinds
    William Herschel – An undevout astronomer must be mad
    John Herschel – All scientific findings confirm Scripture
    Samuel F. B. Morse – What hath God wrought!
    “NATURAL PHILOSOPHY” REACHES ITS ZENITH
    Michael Faraday – World's greatest experimental physicist, a humble, Bible-believing Christian
    Charles Babbage – Father of the computer defends the Scripture
    James Prescott Joule – Father of thermodynamics does science to ponder God's wisdom
    Lord Kelvin – Eminent physicist/professor takes on Darwin and his bulldog
    James Clerk Maxwell – Christian creation scientist par excellence
    Bonus! Maxwell poetry set to a new, original melody: “A Student's Evening Hymn”

    Great Christian Mathematicians: John Napier, Leonhard Euler, Bernhard Riemann

    Honorable Mentions in Physical Science: Copernicus, Brahe, Flamsteed, Davy, Dalton, Henry, Fleming

    SHINING THROUGH MATERIALISTIC DARKNESS

    Gregor Mendel – The monk whose gene laws Darwinists had to obey
    Louis Pasteur – World's greatest biologist opposes evolutionism
    Joseph Lister: Compassionate Quaker saves millions of lives
    The Anti-Evolutionists: Not just Bible-believers opposed Darwin's ideas
    Honorable Mentions in Life Sciences: Ray, Hooke, Bell, Simpson, Fabre
    Henrietta Swan Leavitt – The gentle Christian lady PhD who measured the universe
    George Washington Carver – Obedience to the Genesis mandate saves the South
    Wernher von Braun – World's greatest rocket scientist defends Genesis
    James Irwin – The Apollo astronaut who took the Bible to the moon

    THE RESURRECTION OF CREATION SCIENCE

    A. E. Wilder-Smith –Triple-PhD chemist pioneers intelligent design reasoning
    Raymond V. Damadian –Creationist revolutionizes diagnostic medicine

    Henry M. Morris – Father of the modern scientific creationism movement
    Duane Gish: The man the Darwinist debaters feared most
    Stephen A. Austin: Bringing Genesis back to the real world
    Richard D. Lumsden – Scientism can't save the scientist's soul...

    Science, the child prodigy of the church gone prodigal; will it come home to the Father?
    Capuchin's Avatar
    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #13

    Aug 16, 2007, 04:02 AM
    What accusation? I have not accused anyone of anything here Starman. I have laid out what I believe, which is exactly what inthebox was asking.

    A large number of the people you list here were born way before the theory of evolution was even in its infancy. How is that possibly proof that they believed in the "evidence against evolution" or not believing in abiogenesis?

    Science was, naturally, at the very beginning, a way of understanding God's wonder. Over time though, it has been discovered that God is not needed to explain these "miracles". Of course this revelation has split people, but it has led us to our present time where the vast majority of educated scientists believe in evolution as opposed to a special creation. I have never ever stated that people who believe in creation are stupid. I have on several occasions complimented people like inthebox and Morganite for their thoughtful responses to my posts. I wish more creationsists were like them, because then we could have a proper discussion, which is exactly what I had hoped this thread would be, before you barged in expressing offence and a copy-paste to something that I did not say.

    As I have stated before, a lot of people believe that there is evidence that abiogenesis is possible without divine intervention, the evidence at the present time is not solid, and open to interpretation, but very many scientists believe that it's nothing like an impossibility.

    Now, may we carry on talking about humans and cows?
    ebaines's Avatar
    ebaines Posts: 12,131, Reputation: 1307
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    #14

    Aug 16, 2007, 09:21 AM
    InTheBox: let me turn your question around on you - if you believe that man was given absolute dominion over animals by God, then it should follow that animal cruelty laws are bunk - is that right? After all, shouldn't a man be able to treat animals in any way he chooses? Here in the US a famous football player is `currently in trouble for sponsoring dog fighting (Michael Vick) - would you argue that man's dominion means Michael Vick has a God-given right to mistreat dogs as he sees fit, and hence should not be prosecuted?

    Personally I am a Christian who believes in evolution, because it explains the facts of the physical world better than any other explanation to date. That does not mean that a man murdering a man is the same as a man killing a cow. The fundamental difference is in the level of intelligence of the victim (so yes, killing a dolphin or chimp in my opinion is more significant than killing, say, a house fly), and in the understanding that without laws against murder we would be living in a totally lawless society, and that would be a bad thing for all of us. Societal norms is what allows humans to live together in peace.
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
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    #15

    Aug 16, 2007, 10:17 AM
    Saying that someone accepts things on blind faith is saying that the person is literally brain dead ignoramus who doesn't have a scientific leg to stand on. Which might be true in some cases but not in reference to people who reject evolution based on its flaws. Such people have a solid scientific foundation upon which they base their beliefs.

    The scientists who reject abiogenesis and evolution do so because they see it as unscientific and not because of blind faith. That is the point. Would some among those early scientists accept evolution? I doubt it. They would listen the creationist scientist's arguments which point out the flaws in the theory showing it to be unscientific and they would join their ranks.

    BTW
    Wonder how the DNA coded itself? Isn't code supposed to be evidence of mind? Not when it comes to admitting that there is a God. And there is the great flaw of atheism.

    Also, Darwin reached the conclusions he did because he had not of the evidence available to us today. That's why his idea has had to have many modifications--because it was flawed to begin with.
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
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    #16

    Aug 16, 2007, 10:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ebaines
    InTheBox: let me turn your question around on you - if you believe that man was given absolute dominion over animals by God, then it should follow that animal cruelty laws are bunk - is that right? After all, shouldn't a man be able to treat animals in any way he chooses? Here in the US a famous football player is `currently in trouble for sponsoring dog fighting (Michael Vick) - would you argue that man's dominion means Michael Vick has a God-given right to mistreat dogs as he sees fit, and hence should not be prosecuted?

    Personally I am a Christian who believes in evolution, because it explains the facts of the physical world better than any other explanation to date. That does not mean that a man murdering a man is the same as a man killing a cow. The fundamental difference is in the level of intelligence of the victim (so yes, killing a dolphin or chimp in my opinion is more significant than killing, say, a house fly), and in the understanding that without laws against murder we would be living in a totally lawless society, and that would be a bad thing for all of us. Societal norms is what allows humans to live together in peace.

    Calling Jesus an ignorant liar, and being Christian is supposed to be incompatible. At least to my knowledge it is.

    In response to your comment, the only way you can call Jesus misguided and a liar in reference to creation and still believe yourself a Christian is to write your own Bible. And set up your own particular religion which has NOTHING to do with what Jesus since being a Christian requires that we respect his teachings and obviosly you have your own.
    ebaines's Avatar
    ebaines Posts: 12,131, Reputation: 1307
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    #17

    Aug 16, 2007, 10:30 AM
    Regarding Christians who believe in evolution, please see:

    Science, Technology and Faith

    Episcopalians believe that the Bible “contains all things necessary to salvation” (Book of Common Prayer, p. 868): it is the inspired and authoritative source of truth about God, Christ, and the Christian life. But physicist and priest John Polkinghorne, following sixteenth-century Anglican theologian Richard Hooker, reminds us Anglicans and Episcopalians that the Bible does not contain all necessary truths about everything else. The Bible, including Genesis, is not a divinely dictated scientific textbook. We discover scientific knowledge about God’s universe in nature not Scripture.
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
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    #18

    Aug 16, 2007, 10:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ebaines
    Regarding Christians who believe in evolution, please see:

    Science, Technology and Faith

    Episcopalians believe that the Bible “contains all things necessary to salvation” (Book of Common Prayer, p. 868): it is the inspired and authoritative source of truth about God, Christ, and the Christian life. But physicist and priest John Polkinghorne, following sixteenth-century Anglican theologian Richard Hooker, reminds us Anglicans and Episcopalians that the Bible does not contain all necessary truths about everything else. The Bible, including Genesis, is not a divinely dictated scientific textbook. We discover scientific knowledge about God's universe in nature not Scripture.
    I am not denying that there are people calling themselves Christians while they are discrediting the scriptures which Jesus tells them are God's Word and truth. This claiming to be Christian while attacking clear Bible teaching has a long tradition going back before Darwin came up with his idea. The Bible refers to it as the apostasy.


    BTW
    Why call yourself a follower of Christ if you believed him to be spreading lies on how mankind got here by telling people that the Genesis account is historical fact? Or is it that you haven't read the Gospels and are unaware that Jesus considered Genesis, including the Genesis account historical fact?

    Wouldn't that be the same as I believing that Mohammed was spreading lies and then calling myself a Moslem. Or believing Buddha to have been misguided and calling myself a Buddhist
    Capuchin's Avatar
    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #19

    Aug 16, 2007, 10:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Starman
    Saying that someone accepts things on blind faith is saying that the person is literally brain dead ignoramus who doesn't have a scientific leg to stand on. Which might be true in some cases but not in reference to people who reject evolution based on its flaws. Such people have a solid scientific foundation upon which they base their beliefs.

    The scientists who reject abiogenesis and evolution do so because they see it as unscientific and not because of blind faith. That is the point. Would some among those early scientists accept evolution? I doubt it. They would listen the creationist scientist's arguments which point out the flaws in the theory showing it to be unscientific and they would join their ranks.

    BTW
    Wonder how the DNA coded itself? Isn't code supposed to be evidence of mind? Not when it comes to admitting that there is a God. And there is the great flaw of atheism.
    People in this thread said that they have no solid evidence for god's existence, yet still believe in him. This is the definition of blind faith, they have admitted to it. I don't think they are stupid for believing in him and having blind faith, yet you obviously do, hence your comment. (I don't think I ever used the term blind faith).

    You don't see that maybe proclaiming that you know what some dead people who you had never met would have thought if they had been presented with the evidence for and "against" evolution might make you seem a little crackpotish, Starman? Also, I don't think that saying "Most of the scientists who would believe in what I believe are dead" is a very good way to get your point across either. (Even if it were true, which nobody can say, because there is zero evidence).

    I don't believe you have pointed out a single flaw in evolutionary theory that stands up to even the most cursory analysis that I give it.

    About DNA "coding". I don't think that wordplay is a valid "great flaw of atheism".
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #20

    Aug 16, 2007, 10:45 AM
    It is fun how they try to switch the question, change the topic, but never will address directly the cow issue

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