[jillianleab]

You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.

Please. Have you even ever met an atheist? Apparently not...

[rudi_in]

I want to believe in God and a heaven so my soul will live on.

I worded that the way I did because it appears as though worthbeads may feel this way. If he chooses to ignore his feelings, he may very well grow old with a sense of unfulfillment or emptiness.

Please. Have you even ever met an atheist? Apparently not...

I have actually met several. I have even met many followers of other faiths as well. I am not so secluded that I have not experienced parts of the world and various people within it.

I have many places yet to go and much to learn but don't sell me so short so soon.

It does not seem fair to assume that I am ignorant in this way based solely on a single response that I gave to someone who shared their feelings.

These are merely some thoughts for worthbeads to consider or not.

[Capuchin]

Speech, I believe we have agreed to disagree on this before, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?

Because man is chemical processes. That's why. We are bags of mostly salty water. I know you won't like that description, but that's exactly what we are.

Why does religion seek to complicate the observable world with something which is not observable and non-falsifiable? The vast majority of things that we observe can be explained by science (and more will be explained in the future), yet you chuckle when a scientific explanation is put forth. Why?

[Starman]

Why is there religion? Do most people want just to be a better person, or do they want to go to heaven?

Here is a website that will answer many questions for you.
All About The Journey & Does God Exist Scientifically?

[firmbeliever]

I can answer why I believe what I believe in the light of Islam,but then as worthbeads thoughts are on a Christian path, I refrain from quoting from what I believe...

That being said I agree with those saying its takes faith to believe in Science and the Creator together without having a war with our conscience.
If one leaves science and believes only in the Creator,then that makes one very ignorant of the miracles that exist in the universe.
And those who have faith in science and not in the Creator is also missing out... (I believe even if a person does not realise this, the soul yearns to receive guidance, love,be loved and depend on a higher being)

[inthebox]

Speech, I believe we have agreed to disagree on this before, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?

Because man is chemical processes. That's why. We are bags of mostly salty water. I know you won't like that description, but that's exactly what we are.

Why does religion seek to complicate the observable world with something which is not observable and non-falsifiable? The vast majority of things that we observe can be explained by science (and more will be explained in the future), yet you chuckle when a scientific explanation is put forth. Why?

Off topic, but it reminds me of the Star Trek episode when a pile of mostly carbon based chemicals lay on the floor after these humans were dehydrated.:)



Grace and Peace

[NeedKarma]

(I believe even if a person does not realise this, the soul yearns to receive guidance, love,be loved and depend on a higher being)

Yes, children require loving parents to become well adjusted adults who then mate with a similar well adjusted adult to love and be loved. I do not believe in this innate need for higher spiritual power or else every single human being would feel that and that is certainly not the case.

[speechlesstx]

Speech, I believe we have agreed to disagree on this before, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?

Because man is chemical processes. That's why. We are bags of mostly salty water. I know you won't like that description, but that's exactly what we are.

Capuchin, believe me I understand the science of man and I understand and appreciate what that science has done for man, so I'll get to your questions.

Why does religion seek to complicate the observable world with something which is not observable and non-falsifiable?

Religion doesn't seek to complicate the observable world, it is not out to destroy, demonize or dismiss science. Science cannot explain everything in spite of the many presumptuous attempts to do so, neither can religion of course, but they don't have to be incompatible. I admit I can't prove the existence of God, but scientists seems to assume they'll eventually be able to explain everything. How do you reduce a thought down to a series of chemical reactions and electrical impulses? How do you explain falling in love as chemical reactions and survival instinct? These things are so much more profound than reducing it to instinct and chemical processes, and if science can't see that one should wonder just how intelligent these scientists are.

The vast majority of things that we observe can be explained by science (and more will be explained in the future), yet you chuckle when a scientific explanation is put forth. Why?

Like I said, life - especially human life - is so much more profound than paleocircuits and "neural platforms for bodily expression." It devalues mankind, it reduces us to being worth nothing more than a handful of dust, or "salty water" as you put it. Salty water is great for making pasta and taffy, but a human being is worth so much more. We can laugh, love, cry and reason, that is much more than science can ever fully explain.

[jillianleab]

I have actually met several. I have even met many followers of other faiths as well. I am not so secluded that I have not experienced parts of the world and various people within it.

I have many places yet to go and much to learn but don't sell me so short so soon.

It does not seem fair to assume that I am ignorant in this way based solely on a single response that I gave to someone who shared their feelings.

These are merely some thoughts for worthbeads to consider or not.

rudi, I didn't mean for my comment to sound as rude as it did. I wasn't trying to sell you short, but rather point out the flaw in your logic. You're saying an atheist always has an underlying desire to believe, that they have an emptiness inside them, and frankly, that's just not true. I'm going to go bold here and say every atheist on this site feels quite "full" and does not feel there is something lacking in their life; at least not something that can be filled by belief in god (cause I'd really like a burger right now... :)). My point is your statement does not apply to the majority of atheists. I mean, if you don't feel satisfied by your lack of belief, why not seek out a belief? I think for most people it can be said if your belief system isn't working for you, you find one that does. For an atheist this is an easy jump because we never worry if we stop not believing in god we will go to hell. For a Christian to consider switching religions it's a much more involved process, as you have to consider you might go to hell for changing your beliefs. Atheists don't have that problem. We're all going to hell anyway! See you there, Cap, NK and my other buddies! :)

[jillianleab]

speech I think the difference is you have a romanticized view of human life. You attribute something profound to love, hate, etc instead of looking at it from a scientific POV and attributing electrical pulses to such feelings. To a scientist, or someone who follows the scientific line of thinking, we aren't anything special. We're just bags of salty water with lots of electricity running through us. When you break it down, that's what a human is; we're flesh, blood, bone, water, gooey stuff, and there's all sorts of electricity running around in there too. On the LITERAL surface, that's a human. Scientists think on the literal surface. You, and many others, want there to be more than that to humans; it's romanticizing scientific reasoning. You can hook someone up to fancy machines and show them images to demonstrate the electrical impulses of feelings. It can actually be seen, certain parts of the brain light up when certain things happen. That's how scientists explain emotions - they can be seen.

I'm not saying you are wrong or less intelligent for thinking this way - I know you're a smart guy. But I think your religious beliefs lead you to think this way, whereas someone without religious beliefs looks at the literal surface.

[Capuchin]

Heh, Jill, I'm thinkin' flamegrilled. Mmmmm.

[rudi_in]

You're saying an atheist always has an underlying desire to believe, that they have an emptiness inside them, and frankly, that's just not true.

I am not even talking about atheists at all.

I am well aware that not all atheists feel empty.

worthbeads, however, has said that he/she wants to believe in God but has some unanswered questions. Reference the following quote...

I want to believe in God, but there are so many questions unanswered.

As I stated before, to quote myself...

I worded that the way I did because it appears as though worthbeads may feel this way. If he chooses to ignore his feelings, he may very well grow old with a sense of unfulfillment or emptiness.

There is something that is nagging at worthbeads to believe. If belief never comes to him/her then it seems logical that being unfulfilled or feeling empty could be a result.

your statement does not apply to the majority of atheists.

It is not supposed to apply to the majority of anyone.
It was meant for worthbeads - based on statements made by worthbeads.

[jillianleab]

Actually, rudi, you DID mention atheists:

You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
You die. No heaven, no hell, no big deal.

That directly says atheists are not fulfilled and have an emptiness in their hearts. I see your point that you intended that to only be directed at worth, but, again, you are saying if he chooses to not believe he will have an emptiness. How do you know if he lets go of the notion of heaven and hell he won't feel free and become fulfilled by other things in life?

[speechlesstx]

speech I think the difference is you have a romanticized view of human life. You attribute something profound to love, hate, etc instead of looking at it from a scientific POV and attributing electrical pulses to such feelings. To a scientist, or someone who follows the scientific line of thinking, we aren't anything special. We're just bags of salty water with lots of electricity running through us.

When I was a child and cried after losing my dog, was that a romanticized view of life, or did I hurt down to my very soul? For that matter, as a 46 year old man and I cried for hours after burying my dog this past June, was that just a romanticized view of life or did I hurt down to my very soul? Sure, there were chemicals brewing inside me and electrical impulses racing, but did that convert to the conscious emotional pain I felt over losing my best friend of 10 years, or was my pain the cause of those processes?

When you break it down, that's what a human is; we're flesh, blood, bone, water, gooey stuff, and there's all sorts of electricity running around in there too. On the LITERAL surface, that's a human. Scientists think on the literal surface. You, and many others, want there to be more than that to humans; it's romanticizing scientific reasoning. You can hook someone up to fancy machines and show them images to demonstrate the electrical impulses of feelings. It can actually be seen, certain parts of the brain light up when certain things happen. That's how scientists explain emotions - they can be seen.

Sure they can be seen, but which was the stimulus, the thought or the impulse? How do you convert electricity into a thought?

I'm not saying you are wrong or less intelligent for thinking this way - I know you're a smart guy. But I think your religious beliefs lead you to think this way, whereas someone without religious beliefs looks at the literal surface.

Thanks for the kind words, but I don't believe it is religion that leads people to think that way, they have to be taught to think otherwise.

[firmbeliever]

Religion cannot be forced down anyone's throat, it has to be understood,believed and accepted.
As for me my religion is not just a private thing, nor does it restrict myself from learning the sciences.
For me it is a way of life, with guidelines from the newborn to the dead, from how to keep myself clean to how to pray, from how to behave with those who believe and those who do not,from how to conduct myself in business transactions to divorce settlements,from how to treat my family to how to treat the needy,from the laws of inheritance to how to dress...
And this is why my faith completes my life...

[rudi_in]

You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
You die. no heaven, no hell, no big deal.

My quote says that there is a continued desire to believe that is not fulfilled. Being directed at worthbeads, when I say "you choose" it means worthbeads chooses.


My hypothetical situation to worthbeads is that God or no God, heaven or no heaven, hell or no hell, if he wants to believe and never does there is the possibility that he is left unfulilled.

The key here is that worthbeads said that he wants to believe.

If you want something and never get it, would that not leave you unfulfilled in some way?

[buzzman]

There are some good books on Creation vs Evolution if you are as inquisitive about your logical side as you say you are. Not to say one way or another, but if scientists and people were as "Logical" as they say they are, society would not be so quick to displace the Creation theory. Do you realize that Evolution has become so accepted as truth that it is taught as fact in schools? Do you realize that it is still given the title of "Theory"? This means it has not been proven as fact... I am not saying to believe in one or the other, I am simply trying to get people to not believe everything you are taught. We have to be free thinkers and think for yourself. Test everything. Do you realize that the creation theory says that the earth is only 6000 yrs old? Noahs flood is what caused the dinosaurs to die off, causing the polar ice caps to form instantly and not over millions of years. Read some objective books on Carbon dating and you will find that it is not a reliable way of dating objects. They have found sub-tropical plant fossils in the north pole. Something to think about.

Yeah, but what if my soul lives on in some sort of hell? At my faith level right now I am most likely not assured to stay out of hell.

[NeedKarma]

...but if scientists and people were as "Logical" as they say they are, society would not be so quick to displace the Creation theory.

Isn't Creation theory pretty much "Let there be" this and "Let there be" that? Is there something I am missing?

[jillianleab]

Speech:

did I hurt down to my very soul?

That implies there IS a soul. I know you believe there is such a thing, but there is no proof of such a thing.

Sure they can be seen, but which was the stimulus, the thought or the impulse? How do you convert electricity into a thought?

I don't know, I'm not a scientist. I'm just a boring business student. :)

Thanks for the kind words, but I don't believe it is religion that leads people to think that way, they have to be taught to think otherwise.

In a way I agree with you here. Unless one is taught about the electrical impulses and how on a literal surface the human body functions, they will more than likey assume it's "magic" or "god" or whatever. When we don't understand something, we look for a way to explain it. I guess what I meant to say is your religion furthers your belief there is something more profound to humans than what science has demonstrated.

rudi, I see your point. Your comments were directed at worth and at worth alone.

If you want something and never get it, would that not leave you unfulfilled in some way?

But there is still the possibility that if he chooses NOT to believe, if he realizes belief DOESN'T fill his needs, that lack of belief WILL fill his needs. People often talk about how accepting Jesus into your hearts gives you a sense of fulfillment, but why can't that same fulfillment be reached by rejecting him? To say one can only be fulfilled by accepting religion is not accurate. Religion can set you free - so can lack of religion.

[rudi_in]

Yes, there is the possibility that if worthbeads has a change of heart and no longer has a desire to believe that there will be no sense of emptiness.