[Capuchin]

Firm, there are many cases of imperfection in the wild, for example the vestigial hind legs of a whale. Evolution describes these structures well. How did a perfect designer come to design such organs with no use?

The main evidence for a single common ancestor is DNA and genes, nothing to do with water content. We are so genetically similar to other animals, with only relatively few genes defining the species. There are other evidences, but DNA is remarkably powerful. The vast majority of organisms life off oxygen and water, except for those that were forced into an ecological niche where one of these was absent. Why didn't God make more nitrogen-based creatures, since he decided to put so much nitrogen in our atmosphere?

[cal823]

Maybe it is more efficient for god to create us all based on a similar dna template, and it would have other good points to this method, such as making it easier for us humans to eventually decode this dna, because of the similarities.
Just because you cannot see a use does not mean that there is no use.
Also, if god created a being with no imperfections, he would be cloning himself.
He wanted to create whales, not gods with flippers.

[Capuchin]

I thought man was supposed to be perfect?

[cal823]

No.
Man sins.
We were created as almost perfect (in gods own image)
But we didn't have all the knowledge (the two gifts on the two trees in eden)
We took one of them, but we took it in an act of sin, and thus became sinners.
If we had eaten both, who knows what would have happened

[Capuchin]

But he designed us to be perfect, in his image right?

[cal823]

Almost perfect in my opinion.
Here's some quotes that really interest me
First one from the bible
"you were fearfully and wonderfully made"etc etc made in gods own image (I don't have a bible on hand and can't remember the exact words or the verse)
Now here's one by shakespeare

"What a piece of work is a man!
how noble in reason!
how infinite in faculty!
in form and moving, how express and admirable!
in action, how like an angel!
in apprehension, how like a god!
the beauty of the world!
the paragon of animals!"

[inthebox]

But he designed us to be perfect, in his image right?

Yes, until Adam and Eve sinned. Now we have the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong. We have freedom, choices , and responsibilities.

And I know that I have made wrong choices, and done evil things, and may always do so in this lifetime even though I try as hard as possible to do the right thing.

He, the Lord, imparts His righteousness and His perfection, and thus acceptability to those who believe.;)




Grace and Peace

[Starman]

Firm, there are many cases of imperfection in the wild, for example the vestigial hind legs of a whale. Evolution describes these structures well. How did a perfect designer come to design such organs with no use?

The main evidence for a single common ancestor is DNA and genes, nothing to do with water content. We are so genetically similar to other animals, with only relatively few genes defining the species. There are other evidences, but DNA is remarkably powerful. The vast majority of organisms life off oxygen and water, except for those that were forced into an ecological niche where one of these was absent. Why didn't God make more nitrogen-based creatures, since he decided to put so much nitrogen in our atmosphere?

Similarity doesn't prove common ancestry unless one approaches that similarity with evolutionary preconceptions. We share similar structues because we live on the same planet and the Creator used the similar body plans to allow us all to live here.

Similarity can either be the result of common ancestry or common design. The 96% (or whatever) similarity alone doesn't prove common ancestry.. .
Chimps Are Like Us

Nitrogen fertilizes the plants. Lightning makes it available and rain brings it down.

Excerpt

Vestigial organs are thought to be useless by evolutionists.

They say the whale has "a vestigial pelvis and it is evidence of evolution from a 4-legged land dwelling mammal. The whale retains pelvic and leg bones as useless vestiges."

But the real truth is, these are really anchor points that muscles attach to and used for reproduction; they have absolutely nothing to do with a whale having legs.

Frauds And Fakes #1 (Vestigial Organs)

[Capuchin]

How about human ear muscles? They are too weak to serve any purpose.

How about the sense of smell diminishing in modern societies?

[cal823]

You really want to hear what the person in house 3 blocks away are saying?
I wouldn't. I don't want to hear everyoens private conversations, my ears are powerful enough to hear what people want to tell me and not to hear other people private business.

[Capuchin]

Exactly, our ear muscles have degraded because they are not in use any more and they have changed evolutionary because people with too weak ears to be able to hear predators are no longer killed by those predators. We don't need sensitive directional hearing in this social community we live in.

Likewise we no longer need smell, because we have no need to be able to smell our clanmates in the dark or smell a predator, this is why we have a very variable ability to smell.

Evolution is a beautiful and far-reaching theory, it describes so many things so incredibly well, it is the quantum mechanics of biology.

[Starman]

Exactly, our ear muscles have degraded because they are not in use any more and they have changed evolutionary because people with too weak ears to be able to hear predators are no longer killed by those predators. We don't need sensitive directional hearing in this social community we live in.

Likewise we no longer need smell, because we have no need to be able to smell our clanmates in the dark or smell a predator, this is why we have a very variable ability to smell.

Evolution is a beautiful and far-reaching theory, it describes so many things so incredibly well, it is the quantum mechanics of biology.

Under that criterion you would have to include other human features under vestigial a well to wit: human jaw, eyes, eyebrows, brow ridges, front limbs, nose, ears, eyes and even mouth could be labeled vestigial, since they too according to evolutionists have shrunk.

BTW
Perceived beauty in an explanation does not by default = truth. Many of the beautifully expressed evolutionary explanations have turned out to be false, for example, hasty conclusions of evolutionary vestigiality in reference to the appendix, the tonsils, the thymus gland and others have proven otherwise. So beauty of expression is nice and mesmerizing--but no guarantee of verity.

Do any vestigial organs exist in humans?


Throughout the past century there has always existed a significant minority of first-rate biologists who have never been able to bring themselves to accept the validity of Darwinian claims. In fact, the member of biologists who have expressed some degree of disillusionment is practically endless." —*Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1986), p. 327.

[Treeny]

Has nothing ever happened in your life that says WOW that was the works of some higher power?
Or that little voice in your head that is saying to you don't do it or yes this is the right dirrection?
I have personally had so many exsperiences that made me just know.
Here is an simple example, I was home raising my children for the early years and then
I decided to go back to work but I dident know what to do , somehow all the signs and opyions were pointed out to me, I got into health care and became a can the first place I went to seemed like an awful place to work and I had my doughts but they hired me on the spot so I thought I would try it out just until I could find another job,
There was an old man that I became very attached to he had no family and no one to visit him, we talked a lot and he dident have any religious back ground. I talked to him about Jesus and God. He got bad and was dying and transferred to the hospital, I drove when I could to be beside him so he would not be alone, When he was dying he said he was scared I told him to ask Jesus into his heart and pray for forgivness and he would go to that wonderful place called heaven and he did. He died that night.
I was ready to leave that facility but couldent leave him, after he died I quit working there
I feel like it was all in his plan.
A lot of other things in my life has happened to that I know was the works of God.
I don't go by facts or proof of science verses the Bible I am spiritual but Im not by far a non sinner and I don't go to church like I should, but I do pray and believe and I try to listen to that inner voice that I call God.

[NeedKarma]

Has nothing ever happened in your life that says WOW that was the works of some higher power?
No.

Or that little voice in your head that is saying to you dont do it or yes this is the right dirrection?
Yea, that's my intuition based on my education and life experiences. Some people have really crappy intuition and voices in their heads that tell them awful things. Stay on this board long enough and you'll meet plenty.

[Treeny]

Yes I guess it is a matter of how you choose to look at it, I believe that our conscious or intuition, the little voice is some times God. Not even a voice so much as a feeling pushing you in a certain direction.
I don't think any one will have all the answeres until they meet their maker.
Why somepeople just know there is a God by feeling , and some don't understand that.
Maybe we are at different stages.

[firmbeliever]

Treeny,
I agree some of us(like you and me) see the miracles as miracles while others are OK with a scientific explanation and not believing it to be a miracle.
I know many who have changed along the way... and found the truth of the Almighty.

[Treeny]

Yes and like the old man at the nursing home he was a new born spiritually but physically
At the end. Some people don't get it until the very end. That's what I mean by different stages. I think God gives all a chances to recognise him .
Some may see a miracle as just a circumstance of life but then later on in life
Maybe at the time of death or before, the pieces fall into place.

[paraclete]

The facts are posted in the Bible. The New Testament experience is just as real today as it was two thousand years ago. There is a book you can obtain from a Christian bookshop called I want to believe but, alternatively you could try Evidence that demands a verdict by Josh Mc Dowell

[cal823]

God requires faith from us, and that's all he really asks of us, is to have faith, he even forgives or every sin.
So, seeing as that isn't much to ask, just to have faith, I see no need to pursue evidence, because I know he's real without needing any evidence.

[Starman]

How can a person believe in God without absolutely nothing to convince him? That doesn't make sense. If there is something to convince him-then that something is the evidence which the person has accepted as proof. Also, to say that we see nothing in nature that contributes to our belief in God is to say that we are blind to his handiwork. Unapreciative of his wisdom as revealed in his creation. Is that a virtue? Actually such a view is unscriptural since, the Bible constantly reminds us that creation provides us with evidence that reveals God's wisdom and power. So obviously he DOES want us to gain spiritual strength via observation of his greatness as revealed in his handiwork. Whence do you derive the idea that God requires blind faith?