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Islam and Judaism
Peace and love to everyone
I want to understand the difference between Islam and Judaism, there roots between the children of Abraham, who is the founder of all 3 faiths (Judaism, Chriostianity and Islam) to one God Almighty, and the Ka'Baa.. Can someone explain what Isaac and Jacob have to do with these roots since they both are the children of the same Father, Abraham and about the Ka'Baah, And yes, Peace again to all. |
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In my opinion
The real difference I think is between the two religions, however, lies in their basis for belief. Judaism is based on the unique historical event of a divine revelation experienced by the entire nation. Whereas Islam is based on the prophetic claims of a single individual who subsequently convinced others to follow his ways.
Talmudic tradition says that while Abraham's son Isaac became the forefather of the Jewish people, the Islamic line is descended from Abraham's other son Ishmael. Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity and Islam are part of God's plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All of this is in preparation for the Messianic age. |
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 Originally Posted by trooper12
i am confused by your post, can you point to some links to provide more information as to how Judaism is based on the unique historical event of a divine revelation experienced by the entire nation" ? From what i understand: Israel was the name God gave to Jacob in Genesis 32:28. He had twelve sons: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph and Benjamin. Eventually the families of these sons became the twelve tribes of Israel, each tribe being named after the respective son of Jacob (Israel). So Israel and Jacob are the same person. Judah is one of the tribes = Judaism. this is all after Abraham and Moses. And Jesus also was from the line of Abraham's Progeny, no?
Matt.1 [1] The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Matt.1 [17] So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. I have found the Koran to state that
[3.67] Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.
[2.134] This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did. [2.135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists. [2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
Genesis 17:3 "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him.
Exodus 34:8 "And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped." Numbers 20:6 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them. Ezekiel 9:8 "And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! Wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?" Matthew 17:6 "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid." Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." but really, can you point to some links about that one, thanks |
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Shed some light
Ummm, let me see if I can shed some light on this without going in to a long post. I am going to hit the highlights and go from there (Forgive me for not having the exact scriptural ref), OK? Abraham was tld by God he was going to be the faher of many nations. This is where Isaac comes from and it did happen. Through his Isaacs seed(line) Jesus is born. You asked what Isaac and Jacob have to do with these roots since they are both Abraham's children. I don't understand your question since Jacob is Isaac's sonnot Abraham's son(maybe you meant Ishmael?
Ishmael is Abraham's other son through Sarah's handmade. That is another nation. Even though God didn't want it to happen that way he wanted it through Sarah, God still blessed his son. (Abraham got impatient and thought he would hurry things up and here is Ishmael.) God wasn't happy but he promised Abraham that Ishmael's seed will be blessed also. Therefore, a nation was born out of Ishmael. I know people are going to disagree with me but the war we are fighting turned into a spiritual war. Muslim nation hates the Christian and Judaism nation. Nations have been fighting for generations. This does sound confusing but with god it does become very simple. Please post more questions and I'll try to answer them more fully and point you to some links if I can find them |
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Originally Posted by jduke44
I can not say that muslims hate other religions, but they certainly state that they hate polytheists, at-least that was what I read the Kabaah Abraham built was about. But what is more confusing is that people tend to believe in these religions with racial discrimination. For example, Judaism is a religion, Islam is a religion, Christianity is a religion and even hinduism is a religion, but Hinduism is a polytheists religion. While Abraham is the line of One Allmighty God and the kabaa was to establish a non polytheist religion, is that correct? But, we had Adolph Hitler who called the jews a race, and the U.S. Government shocked many jews by claiming them as a ethnic minority. All sound like polythiests opinions too. And now there are even more people confused about one God, and many seem to want to have there own personal God around to justify what they really worship, which could be power, money, greed.. I still do not get where the muslims come in as the enemy here if they are not polytheists. at least the most part of who pratices correctly. Yet, maybe they are the enemies of thee global consumer market and at the least the undesirables to it all. Would it be safe to say that polytheists are people who always put material things between themselves and others, god's enemies? Not the jews, christians or Muslims. just who ever is a polythiest.. |
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Originally Posted by packert115
And your post seems confusing, no offense. I have come to the conclusion that people have the nature to love, all of us, every single one. but some forget that it also means worship.
Worship;
1-The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. 2-The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed. 3-Ardent devotion; adoration
Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord... Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 15:19 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Polytheists allways put between them and other humans there ignorance of what ideas they have that god is (what they actually worship), Many of these people forgot God created everyone.And you ask ¿WHAT GOD IS IT THAT THEY WORSHIP THAT COULD NOT CREATE YOU AND ME? I do not agree with the people that say, God loves jews and non jews are vermin.. Or the people that say the jews killed Jesus. or that Mohammed killed all Jews or Christians. I do agree with people that say, the God of Abraham is the one true God. and the message is the same for every generation till today. Gods promise of bliss on earth is only to those who rightious, not the rich. If understood so far, you stated that no one knows why we are here on earth, but yet Jesus was born with out a mortal father and like adam, the first man who was also created with either a mortal mother or father and Adam fell into temptation, which is what seems to be the thing everyione is dealing in this world with, sins God loved Abraham because he was not a polytheists right? And Abraham believed in the God that created all humanity, and he was rightious to seek the truth. So far, I see all religions teaching this here, even Islam teaches that Abraham was the father of the one God religion, and that life is full of trials and polytheism is a addiction. Conclusion so far; All Abrahamic faiths are build on the promise that God will grant his blessing only on the righteous. I still will not support killing for oil. I really am starting to believe that the 3 religions are fine if no one intervenes by fallowing there own unGodly rules. |
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Originally Posted by packert115
I never knew Jesus had anything directly to do with Satan since Satan himself, Adam, Noa, abraham, moses where all before jesus., can you share where you got this information again, Beware that Satan lies and tricks people into believing illusionary things, yo do not want to sound like this do you? I have no intention to offend you so you know, i am only trying to ask why these people are all killing each other for when they are the same children of Abraham... So far, i do not think its all based on Abrahams idea but Satans to do this? Wars existed before Abraham, Cane kills able, his own brother, and you still have ignorant people killing each other under the impression of race ideologies even when there own brothers can be as evil as Cane. When the Crusades attacked Jerusalem, they killed ethnic jews and christians, not Muslims alone, so that shows how ignorant they judged people.. judge people by appearance will not help you keep evil out of your home even if you lock your doors and your own children are possesed in tere minds to kill you for your money is it? Jesus said the Truth will let you free,
[31] Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If yea continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
[32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. BTW doing God's will means 'Muslim' in arabic. been jewish is also making a verb which all
Matt.12
[50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Matt.7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt.19 [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. -the children of Ishmail= 12 tribes=Keder.. (who Jesus referred to as from the book of Isiah:42) -the children of Isaac's child; Jacob AKA Israel-> the children if Israel? -or those who became jews from the tribe of Judah? Evil people will never HEAR the truth, i think when people are obsessed by something they can not comntrol themselves about, they will not hear you. You may find yourself in a life threatening situation with materialists like this.
John.8
[37] I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. [38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. [39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. [40] But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. [41] Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. [42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. [43] Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. [44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. [45] And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. [46] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? [47] He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. [48] Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? [49] Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. [50] And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. [51] Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. [52] Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. [53] Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? And the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? [54] Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: [55] Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. [56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. [57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? [58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. Originally Posted by packert115
Where did you find that Satan is here to destroy evil? Originally Posted by packert115
Judaism is a greek pagan name by the way. but i would love to see a link. Thanks. |
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Muslims
G4-450, I heard on the news or in the paper, I can't remember, where Osama or another Muslim leader was saying that anyone who was not Muslim is an infidel which makes me believe they hate other religions. If I misunderstood then I apologize. Unfortunately, I am writing this from work so I don't have the time to look up links to find that article.
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Originally Posted by jduke44
[5.69] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.
[3.83] Is it then other than Allah's (eng=GOD'S) religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned. [3.84] Say: We believe in Allah (eng=GOD) and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa (MOSES) and Isa(JESUS) and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. [3.85] And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. [3.86] How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Apostle was true and clear arguments had come to them; and Allah does not guide the unjust people. 2- But once you know the story and you prefer another religion, your reasons will be your loss to other people and there society for choosing them over Gods religion, which means submit to his will. Because the story is that people made these religions after Abraham. This is what they say, and it sounds completely opposite from the medias. For example: Judaism is based on the Tora, the old testament in the bible. Yet: The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book, they consider it more holy then the Tora AKA old testament in the bible. Christ and even Mohammed condemned the traditions of the Mishnah (early Talmud) and those who taught it (Scribes and Pharisees), because the Talmud nullifies the teachings of the Holy Bible.. (Mark 7:1-13)The Pharisees teach for doctrine the commandments of rabbis, not God.
You can read in the Talmud:
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals. Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth. Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows Sanhedrin 106a . Jesus' mother : "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men. "The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the Nazarene': 1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a). 2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a). 3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b). Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament. So these certain leaders of the scribes did the same thing to Mohammed that they did to Jesus when they met him, not that they are the same people, but people who consider there books the holiest thing on the planet. This makes Islam look clean if you ask me, the only draw back is racism has its roots in the Talmud. if you read it online places you will see. Judaic history, remember, are only one of the 12 tribes and where 14 Generations after Abraham, according to the Gospel MARK 1. So, Islam is the only religion in history of allowed other religions to live under there administration. this is why I am posting all this, I can not believe the whole U.S. war thing has anything to do with Islam other then sharing the wealth with arab sheiks who rose the prices after getting Sadam out of the way because he started to deal with Russia after all those years Osama worked for the CIA in Afghanistan to get them out of the picture. But the one thing that strikes me as clear propaganda is when you say anything about anyone been Jewish, its anti Semitic, yet arabs are very Semitic and Judaism is only a religion, the claims to both rites are false and invented. I still think people should have a second look at who is creating all the real problems and why on this planet. these people do not belong to any group, and they can be anyone, even your kids. |
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Abraham's children ~ Kaaba ~ Origins
Originally Posted by G4-450
Only Yitzak is the son of Abraham. Yacub is the son of Yitzak. Do not forget Ishmael. Judaism preceded Christianity. Judaism and Christianity preceded Islam. The fundamental premise of Christianity is that Jesus is the promised Messiah. The fundamental premise of Islam is that both Judaism and Christianity have wandered from the truth and the revelations to Mohammed in Al Qur'an have restored knowledge of the True God. Judaism and Islam are strictly monotheistic. Christianity is sometimes viewd as tritheistic. The Ka’aba is honoured only in Islam, where it is considered to be the House Of Allah In the province of Hejaz in the western part of Arabia, not far from the Red Sea, there lies the town of Makka. In the centre of this town there is a small square building made of stones, about 60 feet long, 60 feet wide and 60 feet high. Since time immemorial this town and this stone built house has been known to world travellers. This is Bait-ullah, the House of Allah. Its sanctity and antiquity is said to be older than history itself, although this is doubtful. Islamic tradition says that the Kaaba was ordained by Allah to be built in the shape of the House in Heaven called Bait-ul Ma’amoor. Allah in his infinite Mercy ordained a similar place on earth and Prophet Adam was the first to build this place. Muslims insist that the Bible, in the Chapter of Genesis describes its building when God ordained Abraham to erect a Shrine for worship when Abraham was ordered to go to the Southern desert with his wife Hagar and her son Ishmael. Muslims say that the Old Testament describes this building as the Shrine of God at several places, but the one built at Ma’amoor is very much similar to the one at Makka. According to Islam, there is no doubt that it was referring to the stone built house at Makka. Al Qura’an, they say, brought this story into the full light of history. In Sura 3 Verse 90 Qora’an says “Allah has spoken the Truth, therefore follow the creed of Ibrahim [Abraham], a man of pure faith and no idolater”. The first house established for the people was at Makka, for a Holy place and a guidance to all beings. Al Qura’an, say Muslims, firmly establishes the fact that Ibrahim was the real founder of the Holy Shrine. These claims can not be verified in secular history, but that is not unusual with some of the odder claims of religionists, such as the claim that the House of Mary the mother of Jesus was transported miraculously to a place called Walsingham in England, where, it is said, it still stands. It is incorrect to claim Abraham as the founder of either Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. The best that can be done is to honour the patriarch as the father of Ishmael and Isaac, and the grandfather of Jacob, and the great-great grandfather of the bnei-yisrael. Out of Judaism came Christianity, so that Abraham is the spiritual grandfather of Christians who are not of Abrahamic descent, and the same applies to Islam, although Abraham is the progenitor of the bnei-ishmael who, according to legend, became the princess of Arabia, said the number twelve, like the children of Jacob/. Jesus warned against relying on descent from Abraham as a means of ensuring salvation or special preference. MORGANITE |
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Kaaba
Originally Posted by G4-450
In Islam, the Mosque follows the pattern of the synagogue, as Christian churches do, while the Kaaba, a wholly different institution, represents the temple; (Gustav E. von Grunebaum, Mohammadan Festivals (New York: Schuman, 1951), 20-21; Elie Lambert, "La Synagogue de Doura-Europos et les origines de la mosquée," Semitica 3 (1950): 67-72.) When Omar conquered and entered Jerusalem in 638 he asked first of all to be shown "the glorious Temple that Solomon had built," only to discover that the Christians had converted the place into a garbage dump. The treasure that the churchmen had so foolishly thrown away the Moslems were quick to exploit, promptly rebuilding the temple and restoring it to its prestige as a center of world pilgrimage. They had already harnessed its unique powers by "transferring to Mecca cosmological ideas in vogue among Jews and Christians concerning the sanctuary of Jerusalem," and though the legends of the Kaaba, of its founding and refounding by Adam and Abraham as an earthly replica of the eternal preexistent heavenly prototype, etc. were borrowed freely from Jerusalem, there is no long history of bitter rivalry between the two. The Kaaba is a small bulding in the courtyatd of the central mosque in Meccsa, that houses the black polished stone which is th eobject of pilgrimage and veneration. For Islam, Jerusalem remained par excellence the City of the Holy House, and as late as the eleventh century anyone who could not make the Hajj to Mecca was instructed to go to the great feast at Jerusalem instead. Moslem intellectuals, exactly as the Jewish and Christian doctors before them, protested against the glorification of a mere building, and campaigned vigorously against the pilgrimages, but the temple had a powerful advocate in Christian jealousy. Like children fighting for a toy, each faction came to prize the temple more highly when it saw how much the other wanted it. This jealous rivalry became apparent on the very day Omar entered Jerusalem and visited the temple ruins "in all humility and simplicity." The Christians, who saw in his unassuming manner "only a Satanic hypocrisy," were piously horrified at the sight, and the Patriarch Sophronius cried out: "This, surely, is the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple, of which David [sic] prophesied." For the Christians it was their temple now, though they had turned it into a dungheap. Such horror the Jews of old had expressed at the sight of profane feet in the temple, and presently the Moslems took up the refrain, banishing Christians and Jews on pain of death from the sacred precincts "where the Saracens believe, according to their law, that their prayers are more readily answered than anywhere else." The only genuine religious clashes between Christians and Moslems, Müller informs us of the Crusades, were the two fights for the temple, when the Christians took it in 1099 and the Moslems got it back in 1187--"und damit war die Geschichte des Glaubenskrieges als solches ziemlich aus."[thus was the history of religious war worked out] - loose trs. Solomon's Temple was in each case, as it had been in Jewish times, the last redoubt; there alone neither side gave or asked for quarter; it was the ultimate all-out objective, and each conqueror in turn entered the holy place with songs of apocalyptic joy. Actually the possession of the temple complex was more than a mere matter of prestige. In the endless rivalries of the Christian sects there was just one claim to supreme authority that could neither be duplicated nor matched: "Those who cannot be reached by scriptural and doctrinal arguments," says a writing attributed to Athanasius, "are bound to credit the claims of that church which holds the holy places, including "Zion, where the salvation of the world was worked out. . . . And if the opposition say that we hold those places by the brute force of imperial arms, let them know that . . . Christ has never allowed His Places to fall into the hands of heretics." It was a strong argument until Islam took over. The Moslems teach that the Kaaba was put into orbit around the earth during the flood, descending again after the danger was over, certainly suggesting the nature of the thing as a meteoric stone (Tha'labi). (Qisas al-Anbiya' [Cairo: Mustafa Bab al-Halabi, A. H. 1340], p. 214f.) It was thought that Mohammed's death would put a final stop to the progress of his religion; some persons gave him poison to see whether he was a prophet or not, and it was his belief that poison was the cause of his death. He died at the age of sixty-three, in 632, and was succeeded by his father-in-law, Abu Bukker, who was very faithful in sustaining the prophet during his life, and who was acknowledged as the first Khalif after the prophet's death. This man continued the war which Mohammed had commenced, for when the prophet had found that the people would not leave their pagan idols by being preached to, he concluded the sword was the best argument; he therefore decided he would take up the line of march to his native city, sustained by a powerful army. He destroyed the idols in the Kaaba, the temple of Mecca, and dedicated it to be the great temple of Mohammedt, and the centre of Islamic worship, which position it has held up to the present time. |
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Well
I think allot of what you posted is bizare indeed The kabbah is a idea, testimony Abraham founded. Abraham took his son Ishmael (Gen not Isaac his 2nd son) as a sacrifice, offering it for ransom and God finally refused, this was to state that on the last day even your sons will not be accepted and some evil people will offer there sons as well as everything they have to avoid the hellfire. The kabbah was and is a place of pilgrimage not worship, its not worshipped, and any one who believed in God at the time Mohammed was facing his own uncles tribe persecuting him helped mohammed fight them and remove the idols from the kabbah, simple as that. Who ever did not help mohammed and new the scriptures where the hypocrites and liars for it was written clearly that Abraham is the founder of the one true God religion and a friend of God's. diverting into any other religions aka sects is again the worked of Satan and his progeny according to the scriptures. I came to accept this story after many distorted anti islamic ones I read first, I realized after wards that it corresponded to Jesus as well and all the prophets before and after him, and whether or not he was the son of God, God himself the message was very simple and clear and it was to guide people back to the children of Abraham. |
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Islam and Judaism
You have received great responses so I'll just add one item of correction:i.e.
Joseph was not the head of one of the tribes. His sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, were heads of the two half-tribes. Joseph never left Egypt until his bones were carried out with the Exodus some 400 years later. Yes, Joseph was one of the sons of Jacob (Israel) but his position in Egypt -- comparable to "Prime Minister" -- (after being sold into slavery at 17 years of age by his brothers) declared him a "national hero," thus his burial in The Holy Land was prohibited at the time of his death. Some 400 years later the Hyksos kings (those not Egyptian who declared themselves rulers) had been replaced by Egyptians, and Joseph's fame was buried in the annals of Egyptian history -- which paved the way for his bones to be returned to his homeland. Be blessed, Bobbye |
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Joseph's boys
Originally Posted by Bobbye
Did Joseph start as a tribal chieftan and then the two lads head up their own half-tribes? (What does a 'half'-tribe' look like?). The story of the tribes of Israel, their origin, inheritances, divisions, rebellions, and final loss of their inheritances, is clearly recorded in the books of the Old Testament. Jacob (a supplanter, in whose favor the law of primogenture was waived), whom the Lord named Israel (He who prevaiuls with God), had twelve sons, namely: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin, Gad, Asher, Dan, and Naphtali. Each became the ancestor of a tribe in Israel and received patriarchal blessings as such when Jacob went down into Egypt (Gen.49). Jacob also blessed the two sons of Joseph, Manasseh and Ephraim, and adopted them as his own sons, and they were blessed as founders of tribes in Israel. The idea that these two sons of Joseph replaced Reuben and Simeon springs from the words of Jacob when he chose them for adoption, as recorded in Genesis Chapter 48, verse 5, as follows: "And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." A careful reading will show the true meaning to be that they should be sons of Jacob just the same as Reuben and Simeon were, not that they were to replace them. Then again some confusion has come because it is recorded in I Chronicles 5:1, that while Reuben was the firstborn, because of his transgression the birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph. The matter of birthright, however, did not have anything to do with a place among the tribes of Israel, and Ephraim was not substituted as a tribe for Reuben. The inclusion of the two half-tribes made the number of the tribes of Israel into twelve, because the Levites did not operate as a tribe, but were scattered among the remaioning tribes for sacerdotal purposes. MORGANITE :) |
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Of course it is bizzarre. Religion is always bizzarre!
Originally Posted by G4-450
"And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar…and sent her away:…" Then comes the supreme test, the sacrifice of Isaac (Genesis 22:2). "Take now they son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest…and offer him there for a burnt offering." Thus the Bible clearly identifies whioch of Abraham's son is the intended victim. "There is a prevalent notion that the Arabs, both of the south and north, are descended from Ishmael; and the passage in Gen. xvi.12, "he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." This passage is often cited as if it were a prediction of that national independence which, upon the whole, the Arabs have maintained more than any other people. But this supposition is founded on a misconception of the original Hebrew, which runs literally, "he shall before the faces of all his brethren," i.e. (according to the idiom above explained, in which "before the face" denotes the east), the habitation of his posterity shall be "to the east" of the settlements of Abraham’s’ other descendants. These prophecies found their accomplishment in the fact of the sons of Ishmael being located, generally speaking to the east of the other descendants of Abraham, whether of Sara or of Ketuah. But the idea of the southern Arabs being of the posterity of Ishmael is entirely without foundation, and seems to have originated in the tradition invented by Arab vanity that they, as well as the Jews, are of the seed of Abraham--a vanity which, besides disfiguring and falsifying the whole history of the patriarch and his son Ishmael, has transferred the scene of it from Palestine to Mecca." (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, (Vol. I:339) Now, here is what we have, Two separate tradition that contradict each other in some details. On the basis of historical procession alone it seems most likely that the later version was made to claim superiority over the earlier version for purely theological advantage. MORGANITE :) |
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Hi
You posted something interesting I read in your other posts how you refer to the hebrews as the jews, if I may explain why I repeat that Abraham was not a jew and arabs do not believe or argue about anything between these contradictions but hold up what Jesus said which was there is one God and him you worship alone, and Abraham is the father of this faith. Jesus also said that who ever submits to the will of God is his brother and his sisterMark.3 [35] For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. this is to say that Abraham and his name should speak for itself is the Father of Faith in one true God, Faith been God's light which is the will and evidence to the keys of man's Good conscience or bad one which leaves him enslaved to his wrongdoing. Aside from Jesus and back to Abraham, I find it interesting how if one does not speak semitic could be confused, Jesus Spoke Aramaic but the books where in greek, Aramaic is a semitic language, Hebrew also existed only in text and pre mature as a non spoken language, Abraham again did not speak either, he existed before there where jews and the only religion based on his foundation to the kabah is iSlam today, and yes, the nation of Judah fell and like Jesus said another nation will inherit Gods will, I would say Islam been the other brother did based on faith and practice, but many racist theories clutter the truth about Abraham's covenant which has to do with faith like Jesus said, and not blood like Satan racist say, And we already understand all mankind was created by the God of Abraham and we all have to keep our oaths to this covenant if we take it upon ourselves to inherit Gods blessings. so why all these race theories and blood claims to Jacob by some? they are all false. If anyone tells you that the God of Judah did not create the other semitic speaking brothers known as arabs, ask them , what God created you that could not create others if you claim to the one true God who colors and fashions all living beings? You see how the truth sheds it light there? |
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Islam and Judaism
Morganite:
No, Joseph was never the head of a tribel. He was only 17 years old when sold into slavery (Egyptian slavery); was the right hand of the Pharaoh from 30 years of age until his death (never again lived in The Holy Land: never returned to The Promised Land until his bones were carried by the 3 million plus who left Egypt in the Exodus). WHAT DOES A HALF TRIBE LOOK LIKE? As any other tribe. However, it was counted only as "half" (one half to Manasseh and one half to Ephraim) when dividing the land into tribal territories -- after the Hebrews entered the Promised Land through Gilgal; then conquered Jericho under Joshua's command; then were defeated at little AI (until Achan and the "sin in the camp" was addressed); returned to Ai where they were victorious; then conquered Gibeon in the South (making an alliance with the Gibeonites, which God did not grant); then on to northern territories where they were victorious; AND, THEREAFTER, THE LAND WAS DIVIDED INTO TRIBAL TERRITORIES. Be blessed in your insatiable desire for The Word! Bobbye |
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G4-450
Originally Posted by G4-450
You do not address a person. Is this post sent to me? If so: I do not call Hebrews Jews, I call Jews Hebrews. Abraham could not have been a Jew, because he could not have been one of the progeny of his own great grandson (Judah). I believe we agree on that. What language did Abraham speak? It was either Hebrew or an early variation of it. On the antiquity of Hebrew, it was in Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit), where C. Schaeffer beginning in 1929 brought forth thousands of tablets from a temple archive of the Canaanites going back to the 14th century b.c. They are in a language closely related to Hebrew and contain many expressions and concepts that are close to those of the Old Testament, making it possible to solve many Bible mysteries and brightly illuminate certain phases of the early history of Israel. Thirty more boxes of tablets were excavated in 1960. In Aegypt, at Serdabit al-Khadim, there were mines of the Pharaohs where people from Palestine were employed around 1500 b.c. and where they left some thirty rock inscriptions behind. These were discovered by Petrie in 1905, with important additions in 1948. They are written with Egyptian symbols but in Canaanitish dialect which has been identified as proto-Hebrew. They show the early Egyptianizing of the Semites and indicate much closer ties between the cultures of Egypt and Israel than have heretofore been conceded. It was the Ras Shamra texts more than anything else which showed that the Old Testament must be studied in an ever larger context to be properly understood. "The Bible strikes root into every ancient Near-Eastern culture, and it cannot be historically understood until we can see its relationship to its sources in true perspective," according to Professor Albright. "One hundred years ago," writes A. Parrot, "in Mesopotamia it was discovered that history lies behind the Old Testament. Today . . . the Old Testament itself is being discovered," to wit, in the Ras Shamra documents, in the Mari Tablets (a huge collection of tablets discovered on the upper Euphrates by Parrot himself), and in the Nuzi Tablets, vast private archives which "make frequent mention of the Habiri," {Hebrews] and the Dawidum, and even tell of the use of fire-signals by the Benjaminites as described in the Old Testament. The beginnings of Israel are rooted in a highly cultural Canaan, where we now know Mesopotamians, Egyptians, and branches of the Indo-Europeans had converged and blended. Hence the notion that early Israelite religion and society were primitive is completely false. About the Patriarch Joseph. "Most scholars," writes Tha'labi, "say that Joseph is a Hebrew name . . . and Abu-l-Hasan . . . said that asaf is `sorrow' in that language, and that asif is `servant,' and that the two are combined in the name of Joseph." The identification of Joseph with Asaf is an authentic Hebrew tradition. Adam in a vision (this is Tha'labi again) "saw Joseph sitting in all his glory, and cried out, `Who is that noble one sitting in such an exalted degree of glory?' And Gabriel answered, `O Adam, that is thy son, the envied one. . . . ' Then Adam clasped him to his bosom and his heart and said, O my son, do not sorrow (asaf), for thou art Joseph.Thus he first gave him his name." The writer is puzzled by the preexistent situation and explains that "Joseph knew it all in the beginning in the preeminence of his intelligence, and he was instructed in the matter (of his future trials on earth) even as it would be, and he saw that he would be so and so before he was. But that is a thing that only God understands--how, for example, Adam knew all (his children's) names beforehand." The mystery of Joseph appears in Benjamin's admonition to his children in The Twelve Patriarchs: "Follow the example of the holy and good man Joseph. For until death he was not willing to tell regarding himself; but Jacob, having learned it from the Lord, told it to him [Benjamin]." In the Dead Sea Scrolls the famous Teacher of Righteousness is also called Asaph, that being, as we have seen, another name for Joseph, which, as H.J. Schonfield observes, "thus fits in with the Joseph traditions." Jacob blessed Joseph according to Benjamin's Testament, saying, "In thee shall be fulfilled the prophecies of heaven, which say that the blameless one shall be defiled for lawless men, and the sinless one shall die for godless men." According to the Testament of Zebulon, Joseph's three days in the cistern were the type of the descent of the Lord made to the spirits in prison. One can readily see how the Joseph type would be applied to any suffering servant, though the Messiah remains the archetype. Indeed, the Christian fathers were fond of working out elaborate parallels between Joseph and Jesus. The Teacher of Righteousness was also called the Chosen One, Asaph, the Son of Berechiah, Joseph the Just, and Joseph ben Joezer, so that his given name probably was Joseph and he "appears to us as a composite figure," just as his wicked opponent does. The Joseph tradition has been traced backwards as well as forwards, and Bo Reicke has found significant parallels in the Ras Shamra fragments of the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries b.c. Interesting? MORGANITE :) |
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You keep calling it the old testament, it's the TORAH.
When we call it the old testament we are testifyinh that we see it from a new testoment view, which again is not abrahamic. I know that I also referred to the torah ( first five books that moses recieved) as the old testament, and I did it because many DO NOT KNOW the Troah is in the bible, but the closest language to it is ARABIC. Arabic spoken has all the dialects within the semitic tones as for example Aramaic (greek Arabic) and other spoken semitic languages wich most of thee people in the Mid East knew then are now muslim, and lets not forget the magnolians who conquiered Islam and learned arabic who also converted as muslims again because they realized that these so called Bible mysteries you speak off where not any more. Hebrew may I repeate again was never spoken until 1945, when Israel became the silent U.S. state. The BIG LIE is when a person who calls himself Jewish does not correct another person when he or she is confused about the authenticy of Judaism existing BEFORE Moses who received the books about Adam, Noa and Abraham who did not speak Hebrew and where not also Jewish, in-fact the children of Israel did not exist until Moses divided them into tribes again with guidance from God. I call this a Big Lie, because Lying is all Judaism today is about if they do not practice there faith based on Abraham. On a recent BBC article, they showed a traditional Jewish wedding, the groom was wearing a scull cap, white and exactly like muslims. Muslims dress the way Jesus and the children of Abraham dressed, remember God as much as they can as Jesus told people to do, pray with all there might like Jesus told people to do, and keep all the commandments in the Torah (TENAK) like jesus told people to do as well as fight in God's way as Jesus told people to do and as well as love others the way they wanted to be loved as Jesus also told people to do, Now the Media says terrorists attacked the WTC, a religious thing and all, I say it had to do with Israel's occupation and murdering of innocent people in a silent background, so yes religious and political, innocent blood on one side continued because the american people did not know about it since the media is pro jewish. by the way of what happened opened the story and we all are realizing now that the U.S. government controls the information we know. My point is that its backwards and distorted to see Jewish history pre dating King David and his son Solomon, after Solomon the tribe of Judah took over all the tribes of Israel, oppressed and forced people to convert to there religion, not Abraham's, while today we THINK judaism is abrahamic it actually is in no way relevant to the Torah since Ultra Orthodox jews claim that the talmud is HOLIER THEN THE BIBLE all together. |
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TORAH or Testament? - to G4
You keep calling it the old testament, its the TORAH. when we call it the old testament we are testifying that we see it from a new testament view, which again is not Abrahamic.
You do not address any person in particular so you might not mean me, BUT! The Torah is NOT the OLD TESTAMENT, The Torah is NOT the HEBREW SCRIPTURES. The Torah is a PART of the collectuion of books known as the Old Testament, or the Hebrew Scripturesr. The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, also known as the Pentateuch, or "Five books." (because there are five separate books in it). Testamaent means "Covenant," and refers to the covenant God made with Israel under the hand of Moses, and not to the individual covenants he made with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, each separately, With Israel, God put the whole federation of tribes under Covenant (Testament) under Moses as Leader-prophet-administrator. i know that i also refered to the torah ( first five books that moses recieved) as the old testament, and i did it becuase many DO NOT KNOW the Troah is in the bible, but the closest language to it is ARABIC. Well, my friend, if you can refer to it that way, then you must not prevent me from having the same freedom. Is that just? Anyway, you know what I mean - I hope! Arabic spoken has all the dialects withing the semitic tones as for example Aramaic (greek Arabic) and other spoken semitic languages wich most of thee people in the Mid East knew then are now muslim, and lets not forget the magnolians who conquiered Islam and learned arabic who also converted as muslims again becuase they realized that these so called Bible mysteries you speak off where not any more. I have not spoken of "Bible mysteries." Hebrew may i repeate again was never spoken until 1945, when Israel became the silent U.S. state. "Hebrew was NEVER spoken"? You might not know it and you might not believe it, but it was. The BIG LIE is when a person who calls himself Jewish does not correct another person when he or she is confused about the authenticy of Judaism existing BEFORE Moses who received the books about Adam, Noa and Abraham who did not speak Hebrew and where not also Jewish, in-fact the children of Israel did not exist until Moses divided them into tribes again with guidance from God., i call this a Big Lie, because Lying is all Judaism today is about if they do not practice there faith based on Abraham. Judaism, was not the religion of the Patriarchs. Judaism is the attenutated form of Israelitish Cult Religion, centred on the Temple as an amphyicony. It became Proto-Judaism during the Babylonian Captivity, when temple worship was not available to the Judahites. The dinner tabler became the replacement for the temple, and the forms of worship described in Moses' Leviticus were replaced by symbols instead of the full ritual. Before Moses, Patriarchal religion worshipped 'yod-hey-vav-hey' and kings paid tithing and tribute to Abraham as if to God. After the exodus from Egypt, the building of the temples (there were more than one) that replaced the portable tent-temple, life and worship was focused on the temple. The captives, unable to continue that life and servive, adapted their religion and its rituals to what they could do, and thus we see the change from Israelitish amphyiotcony ot the stirrings of what, later, Would be called Judaism, Nothing could be called Judaism in the time of Adam, Abrham, Isaac, or Jacob, because Judah, after whom it is named, was not then born. On a recent BBC article, they showed a traditional Jewish wedding, the groom was wearing a scull cap, white and exactly like muslims Jews had been covering their heads with yamlukes for more than a thousand years before the founding of Islam in 600 AD (CE) Turks called such hats 'rain' wear,' and their origin is lost in antiquity. The yamulke is a skullcap worn especially by Orthodox and Conservative Jewish males in the synagogue and the home. Itr is said to remind Jews that no one is above a Jew except God. Muslims dress the way Jesus and the children of Abraham dressed, remember God as much as they can as Jesus told people to do, pray with all there might like Jesus told people to do, and keep all the commandments in the Torah (TENAK) like jesus told people to do as well as fight in God's way as Jesus told people to do and as well as love others the way they wanted to be loved as Jesus also told people to do, Non-Muslim Arabs dress the same way, because it is sensible in hot countries. I dwell in the desert and it would be sensible here, but I wear loose clothing rather than the burnoose, whi8ch is an Arabn garment, rather than a Muslim garb. It is a little disingenous to claim that everything in the old world is Islamic. Now the Media says terrorists attacked the WTC, a religious thing and all, i say it had to do with Israel's occupation and murdering of innocent people in a silent background, so yes religious and political, innocent blood on one side continued because the american people did not know about it since the media is pro jewish., by the way of what happened opened the story and we all are realizing now that the the U.S. government controls the information we know. We can all pick holes in what the media says about this and that. It hardly ever agrees with itself over the same point. However, I have never seen the Terrorist attack on WTC attributed to any religious cause. Osama Bin Laden is not a religious lkeader, he does not represent Islam. He is a terrorist, a murderer, and is under God's fatwah for murdering inncent people. He might come from a Muslim fmaily, but he does not act in accordance with Islamic teaching, or Jewish, or Christian teaching when he turns his hand to cold blooded slaughter of the innocent. If he sees himself as a soldier with a cause worth fighting for, then let him meet his enemy on the battlefield. No warrior creeps around in the dark like a thief, rapist, burglar, or murderer. Warriors stand tall and face their enenies head on, face-to-face. Bin Laden is noit a warrior. He is a disgrace, and an enemy to God. My point is that its backwards and distorted to see Jewish history pre dating King David and his son Solomon, after Solomon the tribe of Judah took over all the tribes of Israel, oppressed and forced people to convert to there religion, not Abraham's, while today we THINK judaism is abrahamic it actually is in no way relevant to the Torah since Ultra Orthodox jews claim that the talmud is HOLIER THEN THE BIBLE all together Of course Jewish history cannot pre-date Judah. That is chronologically impossible, but it seems contrary to the argument you make earlier in your post. As for Solomon and the House of Judah 'taking over' the rest ofd the tribes and forcing them to convert to Judaism, that sounds very much like the tactics that Mohammed would later use to effect the spread of Islam. However, that does not square with actual history. The Kingdom of Israel (Northern Kingdom) was never subjugated by Judah. It was subjugated by Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria around 720 BC. Fictionalised history makes your position untenable. If someone cannot tell the truth about history, evensomeone else's, can we relied on anything else they say? You obviously have sources for the things you write, but I have to suggest that they might not be as reliable as you think. History that is re-written to suit someone's particular point of view is called ":Revisionist History," and is considered blatantly dishonest. Again, I admire your persistence, and also appreciate the problems you have with the sources on which you rely. MORGANITE :) |
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