[talaniman]

Not all Christians feel that way as many gay people are as devout as their straight counterparts. I find it fascinating that some churches allow gay marriages and embrace their gay members while others do not. It seems to be growing and reminds me of the ancient times when Christians were the ones in the closet and rejected by masses. If it was wrong then, why would it not be wrong now? I recall the sharia law dust up, and the fear of it, but many of those beliefs are deemed illegal under the law, but discrimination because of ones beliefs in Christianity is not? Let us not forget the slavery thing by a Christian nation that has such a brutal history even long after the civil war, and still lingers heavily today.

I just think its not a good thing that a group can be exempt from the law while they taut equal protection of the law, so I guess it's easier to write the words than do the actions. I get accommodating workers who cannot comply with the functions of their jobs be they bakers, pharmacists or any other job, because of religious beliefs, but I don't see that as a good thing either unless it applied to EVERYBODY.

Maybe that's the real conflict here in that as a nation of laws, we have yet to reconcile the equal protection under those laws, but that's a judges job isn't it? Unfortunately they are picked from the same humans that have the conflicts. One could only hope they are not from the same church as the conflicted. More evolution seems to be needed by some more than others.

So JL I hope you understand how it would feel if you walked into an establishment to get a product and got a sermon instead of service. That was what my question were about, and I liked your answer that you would just seek service elsewhere. In that respect you may be a better man than me.

I would call the cops. I just don't believe that service conflates with condoning. Its like no shoes, no shirt, no service signs at 7/11 on steroids.

[jlisenbe]

The world is full of churches who do not believe the Bible. I don't mean to sound ugly, but to say that a person is a devout Christian when he/she is openly and unreservedly sexually active with anyone other than a genuine spouse (a person of the opposite sex) is not a Biblical statement. If we are going to serve Jesus, we have to do things His way. It will not be a perfect experience, but we would, at the very least, have to acknowledge His views of marriage and sexual expression.

I would call the cops...Its like no shoes, no shirt, no service signs at 7/11 on steroids.

Do you believe a shop owner should be able to have ANY standards at all? If not the "no shirt, so shoes, no service" standard, then can they at least insist on having clothes on? Can they prohibit people from spitting on the floor? Any standards at all?

I just don't believe that service conflates with condoning

That's kind of the point. That is your belief. Mine is different. Why not simply allow both of us to express our beliefs?

[paraclete]

How can you be so blind Tal, either you believe or you do not. There are many deceived people in the world, but being a "good" person will not save you, you have to act on your beliefs too

[talaniman]

The world is full of churches who do not believe the Bible. I don't mean to sound ugly, but to say that a person is a devout Christian when he/she is openly and unreservedly sexually active with anyone other than a genuine spouse (a person of the opposite sex) is not a Biblical statement. If we are going to serve Jesus, we have to do things His way. It will not be a perfect experience, but we would, at the very least, have to acknowledge His views of marriage and sexual expression.

Yeah you do sound ugly there, maybe judgmental, but you are entitled to that opinion, I can respect that though I disagree.

Do you believe a shop owner should be able to have ANY standards at all? If not the "no shirt, so shoes, no service" standard, then can they at least insist on having clothes on? Can they prohibit people from spitting on the floor? Any standards at all?

I get standards and at least 7/11 posts a sign of their standards unlike that Baker who might not. You know like those ugly signs back in the day "no coloreds", or "white only". Ever see a sign that says "No gay wedding cake or catering"? At least you know what your getting.

That's kind of the point. That is your belief. Mine is different. Why not simply allow both of us to express our beliefs?

We do, but I just hope you don't take my challenges personally as I never do, though they can wind me up sometimes. 8D

[jlisenbe]

I can respect that though I disagree.

Disagree in what way? Are you saying that the Bible endorses men having sex with men?

We might be struggling over the definition of "gay". I take that to mean a person who actively engages in sex with people of the same gender. If you mean, however, a person who is tempted in that direction but does not act on it, then that would be a different matter.

We do, but I just hope you don't take my challenges personally as I never do, though they can wind me up sometimes. 8D

No offense taken. I enjoy the give and take and certainly respect you as a person.

[talaniman]

Disagree in what way? Are you saying that the Bible endorses men having sex with men?

While I find wisdoms and insights into the writings of ancient men, I give NO book(s) a divine position and that includes everybody's bible... not just the Christian one. So it matters not what they endorse, or doesn't endorse. My own relationship with the creator is a personal one that is direct and that I chose to put nothing between us. I need the power of good orderly direction to have the power to resist and deal with the chaos that exists. Just me. I knock no one that needs whatever guidance that makes sense to them.

We might be struggling over the definition of "gay". I take that to mean a person who actively engages in sex with people of the same gender. If you mean, however, a person who is tempted in that direction but does not act on it, then that would be a different matter.

The subject was gay people so that's the term I used, and the point was that discrimination on any basis is WRONG. You can feel free to substitute gay for any social name you want. It is really meaningless segregating or judging any human by what they do with another human behind closed doors. I will admit, I have my limits though, and maybe that's a flaw, but it is what it is, and can certainly accept the flaws of other humans. I think that's why while two humans doesn't bother me, introducing other species is a bridge too far but other family groups beyond two doesn't disturb me so a harem doesn't offend as much as it does others. I'm not ashamed of my liberal views and make no excuses to the boundaries of good behavior I'm comfortable with.

So I admit that my judgement of a fellow human is a scale of good, bad, or somewhere in between. Glad you enjoy the discourse, so do I, and I respect everyone here, even though it gets contentious. It's all good my friend, can't imagine a day without you guys.

[jlisenbe]

I knock no one that needs whatever guidance that makes sense to them.

I don't think you really believe that. If, for instance, someone says he has received guidance that makes sense to him to the effect that he can kill you and rob your house, I just don't think you will go along with that. For that matter, the baker who says he received guidance from Jesus that he should not participate in a gay wedding is exactly what you have been criticizing.

Everything cannot be subjective. There has to be some objective truth. All ancient writings cannot be given equal footing since they have so many places of disagreement. As to the Bible, I would just encourage anyone to examine the evidence for its truthfulness and reliability.

The most important question I know of, and in fact the ONLY truly important question I know of, is this: Did Jesus Christ really rise from the dead? If He did, then that changes everything. If He did not, then I can't see how anything really matters. After all, we would just be another species of animal on a small, otherwise unimportant planet circling one star among multiplied trillions of stars in a universe billions of years old.

my judgement of a fellow human

Hmmm. You judge people? That's strange. About me, you said, "Yeah you do sound ugly there, maybe judgmental." So it's OK to judge when you do it, but not for others?

[Wondergirl]

If we are going to serve Jesus, we have to do things His way.

No, if we are going to serve Jesus, we have to BE like Jesus. This is the Gospel, this is Love. Doing things a certain way is Law.

Jesus saw individuals, not just their labels. This inspired them to know Him better.

[jlisenbe]

No, if we are going to serve Jesus, we have to BE like Jesus. This is the Gospel, this is Love. Doing things a certain way is Law.

I think that's a somewhat fair statement, but Jesus loved people enough to tell them the truth. He didn't just go around patting everyone on the head and telling them not to worry about sin. He confronted sin, and not always in a nice manner, so if we are going to be like Jesus, we will have times when we are called upon to do the same. Doing so is a great act of love.

Don't believe Jesus confronted sins? Try reading this. Pretty strong stuff.

Luke 11:37 When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38 But the Pharisee was surprised when he noticed that Jesus did not first wash before the meal. 39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you. 42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. 43 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and respectful greetings in the marketplaces. 44 “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which people walk over without knowing it.”

Might also check out what he told the woman caught in adultery. He was wonderfully merciful to her, but also told her, "Go and sin no more." There cannot be love without warning people about the consequences of sin. And yes, that has to start with me.

Jesus saw individuals, not just their labels. This inspired them to know Him better

That's a really good statement and I agree with it. However, he did not ignore the conditions of their lives. There was always the call upwards.

[Wondergirl]

He didn't just go around patting everyone on the head and telling them not to worry about sin. He confronted sin, and not always in a nice manner, so if we are going to be like Jesus, we will have times when we are called upon to do the same. Doing so is a great act of love.

And those whom we confront regarding their sin are to confront us also in the same manner, with Love. After all, Romans 3:23 says, "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

[jlisenbe]

And those whom we confront regarding their sin are to confront us also in the same manner, with Love. After all, Romans 3:23 says, "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

I'm not sure what your point is. Should sinners be compassionate to sinners? Absolutely. Should we justify and excuse sin since we all struggle with it? No.

[talaniman]

I don't think you really believe that. If, for instance, someone says he has received guidance that makes sense to him to the effect that he can kill you and rob your house, I just don't think you will go along with that. For that matter, the baker who says he received guidance from Jesus that he should not participate in a gay wedding is exactly what you have been criticizing.

You may as well believe it because I don't give a rats patoot where one gets his guidance from, nor where it takes him. A loony can invoke Jesus the same as a good man, so all I deal with are the actions. My criticism of that baker is but my opinion, and my right to express it. My complaint is discriminating by refusing to service another human. I have experienced it first hand, up close and personal, and it's an infuriating, disgusting and humiliating place to be, and WRONG to treat another human that way just because you can.

I have no control over the actions of another, just my own, and if Jesus told you to break in my house and kill me, then I can help you take it up with Jesus personally, god willing, but who can predict the outcome?

Our conflict my friend seems to be you think your baker is exempt from the law, and discrimination is AGAINST the law, though I must acknowledge that you thumb your nose at your fellow Christians as well as take exception when some one doesn't agree strictly with your assessment. I'm guilty of not agreeing and saying so. What do you want me to do about that?

Everything cannot be subjective. There has to be some objective truth. All ancient writings cannot be given equal footing since they have so many places of disagreement. As to the Bible, I would just encourage anyone to examine the evidence for its truthfulness and reliability.

I have already said the writing of the ancients is both fascinating and insightful, but I have yet to find one to be any better than the others and there are many. Actually the names may change but the gist is the same in my honest opinion. You like yours, COOL! I don't mean to offend. I explained that already, and accept you must proselytize when you can. Comes with the territory huh?

The most important question I know of, and in fact the ONLY truly important question I know of, is this: Did Jesus Christ really rise from the dead? If He did, then that changes everything. If He did not, then I can't see how anything really matters. After all, we would just be another species of animal on a small, otherwise unimportant planet circling one star among multiplied trillions of stars in a universe billions of years old.

His body died, but obviously his spirit lives on still in every heart that is open to him. We just do not know the awesome power of creation, but can see the wonder of it all around us. Being a part of it is what really matters. That's where my gratitude starts. OMG am I proselytizing now too!

[Wondergirl]

I'm not sure what your point is. Should sinners be compassionate to sinners? Absolutely. Should we justify and excuse sin since we all struggle with it? No.

But too often the attitude of Christians is "I'm better than you because I'm saved."

[jlisenbe]

But too often the attitude of Christians is "I'm better than you because I'm saved."

I would sure agree with that.

My complaint is discriminating by refusing to service another human.

But you said, "I knock no one that needs whatever guidance that makes sense to them." So if they discriminate because of the guidance they have received, is that OK? And if not, then aren't you judging them?

[tomder55]

should a Jewish owner of a deli be forced to cater a KKK meeting ?

[Wondergirl]

So if they discriminate because of the guidance they have received, is that OK? And if not, then aren't you judging them?

I understand him to be judging the guidance they received.

should a Jewish owner of a deli be forced to cater a KKK meeting ?

No forcing. And good could come of that.

[jlisenbe]

I understand him to be judging the guidance they received.

So he can, all on his own, determine the validity of "divine guidance" someone else received? Wow. That's taking on a big responsibility. I don't think he, or you, or I, or anyone other person is able to, on our own, do such a thing.

No forcing. And good could come of that.

So your answer is that they should not legally be forced to do that? Just asking.

[tomder55]

And good could come of that.

agreed , a pastrami on rye will turn anyone .

[jlisenbe]

agreed , a pastrami on rye will turn anyone.

Now THAT was funny!

[talaniman]

But you said, "I knock no one that needs whatever guidance that makes sense to them." So if they discriminate because of the guidance they have received, is that OK? And if not, then aren't you judging them?

It's not just me, but the law that says discrimination is unlawfull. You enjoy an exemption, others do not have. You think a Rasta can practice his religion in Texas? He gets arrested as soon as he fires up! How is that FAIR? I God told you to break other laws would that be right? I have already noted that a court has said a baker cannot be forced to cater a gay wedding. Hey I'm cool with that, but let me ask as Tom has put forward, a gay BIRTHDAY cake is okay? Just not a wedding cake right?

should a Jewish owner of a deli be forced to cater a KKK meeting ?

NO! If a Christian doesn't have to cater a gay wedding, then why should a Jew cater a KKKmeeting? It's still discrimination. This is America and all are equal. No telling when us stupid humans will get that message.

I understand him to be judging the guidance they received.

Maybe, but I have strong beliefs too, that I can admit. I've been to gay weddings had a great time, but a Klan meeting, it would take more than the food to get me there and to be real, never been invited to one. I would worry about being the entertainment as opposed to being a guest if you get my drift.