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    ALICIAHUBBARD's Avatar
    ALICIAHUBBARD Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Jun 20, 2007, 11:21 AM
    Terminating Parental Rights
    I Am A Single Mother In Ca Of A 4 Year Old Daughter. Her Dad Hasn't Seen Her Since 2003 And Only Has Seen Her 3 Times In Her Life. I Want To Know If Terminating His Rights Is Going To Affect Receiving Child Support. Also, How Would I Go About Terminating His Rights?

    Thank You,

    Alicia
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    LadyB Posts: 320, Reputation: 42
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    #2

    Jun 20, 2007, 11:25 AM
    Termination of rights does not affect child support. You would need to file for this in court, so an attorney is the best suggestion I can give you.
    nya's Avatar
    nya Posts: 55, Reputation: 8
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    #3

    Jun 20, 2007, 06:57 PM
    Hi,

    I will tell you the law here in Florida where I live. If a parent's rights are terminated we cannot, by law, pursue child support. A termination of parental rights are just that, its as if the parent never gave birth to the child (this applies to mothers and fathers). So as such, child support is not required of a parent who has undergone the TPR process. You would have to pursue a case in family court regarding the termination of parental rights.
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #4

    Jun 20, 2007, 07:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ALICIAHUBBARD
    I Am A Single Mother In Ca Of A 4 Year Old Daughter. Her Dad Hasn't Seen Her Since 2003 And Only Has Seen Her 3 Times In Her Life. I Want To Know If Terminating His Rights Is Going To Affect Receiving Child Support. Also, How Would I Go About Terminating His Rights?

    Thank You,

    Alicia
    YOU cannot terminate his rights. This has to be done voluntarily. Unless there is an issue of abuse or total abandonment (i.e. he disappears). In most places terminating rights does not terminate responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by nya
    Hi,

    I will tell you the law here in Florida where I live. If a parent's rights are terminated we cannot, by law, pursue child support.
    Can you cite the law for that? In my experience parental rights and parental responsibility are separate issues. Parental rights refer to the right to have a say in how a child is raised, to be a part of the child's life. Parental responsibility refers to supporting the child. Terminating one doesn't terminate the other. The only time that is true is if the termination is done to pave the way for the adoption of the child.
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    nya Posts: 55, Reputation: 8
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    #5

    Jun 20, 2007, 07:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottGem
    YOU cannot terminate his rights. This has to be done voluntarily. Unless there is an issue of abuse or total abandonment (i.e. he disappears). In most places terminating rights does not terminate responsibility.



    Can you cite the law for that? In my experience parental rights and parental responsibility are separate issues. Parental rights refer to the right to have a say in how a child is raised, to be a part of the child's life. Parental responsibility refers to supporting the child. Terminating one doesn't terminate the other. The only time that is true is if the termination is done to pave the way for the adoption of the child.

    I assumed that when she asked her question, she meant that the father would come to court and sign the documents to terminate his parental rights to the child. If the father does this and it is signed by a judge, the father has absolutely no legal rights or responsibility for that child. The process does usually precede an adoption but not always. (There are default judgments made all the time after due dilligence has been exercised in locating a father) There are instances where the parents rights are terminated to allow a child to remain in a long term custody placement which is not the same as adoption. In the case of teenagers long term custody placement is usually the better option than adoption. I cannot specifically quote the law to you right now but I can tell you I address this issue on a daily basis at work. So I can guarantee you I'm correct. (This is Florida law) So once again child support cannot be collected from parents whose parental rights have been terminated.
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #6

    Jun 20, 2007, 08:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by nya
    the father would come to court and sign the documents to terminate his parental rights to the child. If the father does this and it is signed by a judge, the father has absolutely no legal rights or responsibility for that child. I cannot specifically quote the law to you right now but I can tell you I address this issue on a daily basis at work. So I can guarantee you I'm correct. (This is florida law)
    I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am saying that this goes against everything I have learned about this. So, until I see the actual law that states this I have to be skeptical.

    What work do you do that you encounter this?

    If you look at similar posts in this forum you will see lots of fathers that would gladly terminate parental rights to get out of paying child support. That's why this doesn't make much sense. I suspect that the if the law does specify this, then getting rights terminated is not an easy process and would probably be denied in most cases. But that's why I want to see the actual law.
    nya's Avatar
    nya Posts: 55, Reputation: 8
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    #7

    Jun 20, 2007, 08:42 PM
    You are correct. The termination of parental rights is not an easy process and usually in total takes close to one year and that's if everything goes smoothly. Because people's feelings are involved usually someone changes their mind, they comply with case plans, reconciliations, etc. If the only reason you want to terminate your rights are that you don't want to pay child support then of course no judge in their right mind would grant the termination process. There has to be legal, valid reasons for the serious process of terminating someone's rights to their child. I work with a child support agency and volunteer as a Guardian Ad Litem in dependency court. I get cases where the parents rights have been terminated and now an Aunt has custody of the children. If the Aunt comes into the child support office to collect, we will advise her that if the parent's parental rights have been terminated, she cannot collect child support from that parent and the case is closed. I feel sometimes when people state they want parental rights terminated they do not know the very serious nature of it. They usually want sole custody and still want child support. Sole custody and termination of parental rights are two very different things. A custodial parent can obtain sole custody and child support if they can get it ordered by a judge.
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #8

    Jun 21, 2007, 05:22 AM
    I would still like to see the letter of the law, but it may be that Florida is following the spirit of how most states do it if not the actual process. In most places rights and responsibilities are considered separate. So its possible to terminate rights without being relieved of the responsibility. From what I've learned, terminating rights is not an easy thing to accomplish anywhere. By separating rights and responsibility it makes it less attractive to try to terminate rights. From what you've said it appears Florida takes the other tack and just makes it hard to terminate anything.
    alkaline's Avatar
    alkaline Posts: 61, Reputation: 20
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    #9

    Jun 21, 2007, 07:06 AM
    Hey, I'm a family law attorney in NJ.

    I just happen to be working on a stepparent adoption right now and have some paperwork in front of me, so I thought, well why not let you know what I just read on it :-)!

    Ok the cite for the information in the following paragraph is: N.J.S.A. 9:3-50(c). Cf. C. v. R. 169 N.J. Super. 168, 404 A.2d 366 (Ch. Div. 1979)

    The court held that once the former husband's child support arrearages were reduced to a money judgment, his natural children had a vested right to such payment which could not be divested by their adoption only moments later. However, the former husband's duty to support his children prospectively was eliminated.

    That deals specifically with termination of parental rights. Remember that the termination of parental rights would be considered permanent and final.

    However, on another note, which may be what ScottGem was thinking about, Monmouth Courts v. GDM, 308 N.J. Super. 83 (Ch. Div. 1997) says that Child support cannot be waived in returns for no visitation. It is against public policy.

    That is not the same as a termination of parental rights, though.

    Consider this: In an action for a stepparent adoption, if that adoption is granted, the stepparent will be invested with all the rights as well as all the obligations of a natural parent (N.J.S.A. 9:3-50(b)). The parental relationship established by the judgment of adoption will continue even if the marriage between the stepparent plaintiff and the consenting spouse (the parent that consented to their stepparent spouse adopting their natural child) is terminated. In any future divorce proceeding between the stepparent plaintiff and the consenting spouse, the stepparent who has adopted will have the same right to custody and visitation and the same duty to support as the consenting spouse who is a natural parent. Also, the rights and duties acquired by the stepparent as a result of the adoption continue even after the death of the spouse. Because of the permanent effect of termination of the rights and obligations of the natural father, any obligation by the natural father to pay support will terminate.

    Poster Nya is correct that absent a VERY strong showing of abandonment or neglect, termination of parental rights will not be terminated in New Jersey unless the birth parent (in this case the father) will sign a Consent. This showing is required in every context in which termination is sought. See Matter of Baby M, 109 N.J. 396, 537 A.2d 1227, 77 A.L.R. 4th 1 (1988), on remand to, 225 N.J. Super. 267, 542 A.2d 52 (Ch. Div. 1988).

    This all is, of course, NJ law. The laws in other states may vary, and though I do not think there would be a drastic difference I have not done the research on all 50 states (of course!).

    If you'd like to make a diligent effort to give the birth father notice of a hearing on a termination of parental rights, after filing your complaint (for termination of parental rights):

    1) Send the notice by regular mail and by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the parent's last known address;

    2) Make a discreet inquiry among any known relations, friends and current or former employers of the parent; and

    3) Unless otherwise restricted by law (you would need to find this information out yourself, I suggest contacting an attorney in your state), make direct inquiries, using the party's name and last known or suspected address, to the local post office, the division of motor vehicles, county welfare office, the municipal police department, the division of state police, the county probation office, the department of corrections, and any social service and law enforcement agencies known to have had contact with the party, or the equivilants in other states, territories or countries. Failure to receive a response to the inquiries within 45 days is a negative response.

    To the original poster, as I am currently dealing with a similar case with basically the same implications and issues, I believe the best course of action for you would be to find an attorney in your state and discuss whether this is the best option for you in your specific circumstances. If the birth parent will not consent to the termination of parental rights there is a high burden of proof you will need to show to the court that they should terminate despite his resistance. An attorney will be able to advise you if you might be able to reach this burden. An attorney will also be able to help you file and complete all necessary paperwork within court deadlines. Please give this serious consideration before pursuing it on your own. Goodluck to you in whatever you decide to do, I hope it all works out for the best for you and your child.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #10

    Jun 21, 2007, 07:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by alkaline
    Hey, I'm a family law attorney in NJ.

    Ok the cite for the information in the following paragraph is: N.J.S.A. 9:3-50(c). Cf. C. v. R., 169 N.J. Super. 168, 404 A.2d 366 (Ch. Div. 1979)

    The court held that once the former husband's child support arrearages were reduced to a money judgment, his natural children had a vested right to such payment which could not be divested by their adoption only moments later. However, the former husband's duty to support his children prospectively was eliminated.

    That deals specifically with termination of parental rights. Remember that the termination of parental rights would be considered permanent and final.
    But this deals with adoption. See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by alkaline
    However, on another note, which may be what ScottGem was thinking about, Monmouth Courts v. GDM, 308 N.J. Super. 83 (Ch. Div. 1997) says that Child support cannot be waived in returns for no visitation. It is against public policy.

    That is not the same as a termination of parental rights, though.
    But by extension it would be against public policy for a parent to get out of paying support by relinquishing any parrental rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by alkaline
    Consider this: In an action for a stepparent adoption, if that adoption is granted, the stepparent will be invested with all the rights as well as all the obligations of a natural parent (N.J.S.A. 9:3-50(b)).
    No question. An adoptive parent assumes the rights and responsibilities of the natural parent relieving the natural parent of the both. I've specifically listed adoption as an exception. Generally, Family courts will not grant a relinquishment of parental rights except to clear the way for adoption or in cases of abuse.

    While specific state laws may vary, in the US a natural parent is generally not allowed to relinquish parental rights to avoid parental responsibility. In addition, relinquishment of parental rights, when granted, have to be voluntary except in cases where the parent cannot be found (in such cases due diligience must be exercised to find the parent).
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    alkaline Posts: 61, Reputation: 20
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    #11

    Jun 21, 2007, 07:53 AM
    Yeah, ScottGem, if this isn't dealing with anything related to an adoption she shouldn't be able to terminate his parental rights, it is against public policy. You are right about that, and even if the parent is behind in child support or absent the child will still have a right to that money and the parent's estate. I just tried looking for any viable reason she could or should attempt to terminate without adoption being an issue and I couldn't find one. I haven't ever had this issue come up in terms of a divorce/custody/child support problem, only adoption, and it seems you are correct in that his rights probably couldn't (and shouldn't) be terminated in these circumstances.
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    ALICIAHUBBARD Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #12

    Jun 22, 2007, 04:16 PM
    Basically what I am saying is that I have heard here in California that I can terminate his rights because he hasn't seen my daughter or made contact in almost 4 years. They are currently trying to get child support from him. The reason that I want his rights terminated is because he is the type of person that will try and come into my daughter's life all of a sudden and try and call the shots. I never want this to happen as he is a very abusive person. I have a friend that filled out all the paperwork and had her child's father's rights terminated due to abandonment. I was just curious to see if I could still get child support. I do know that a father can't terminate his own rights in order not to pay. I guess the laws are different state to state as I am seeing here.

    Thanks,

    Alicia
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #13

    Jun 22, 2007, 05:31 PM
    Did your friend know where the father was? Did you she have to show an effort to find him before she was granted termination?

    As I've been saying, rights and responsibilities are viewed differently. But What's important to you is that you have FULL custody and he has no visitation. If he is abusive you should be able to get both.
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    queenbrandissima Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #14

    Jul 17, 2007, 10:34 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by nya
    I assumed that when she asked her question, she meant that the father would come to court and sign the documents to terminate his parental rights to the child. If the father does this and it is signed by a judge, the father has absolutely no legal rights or responsibility for that child. The process does usually precede an adoption but not always. (There are default judgments made all the time after due dilligence has been exercised in locating a father) There are instances where the parents rights are terminated to allow a child to remain in a long term custody placement which is not the same as adoption. In the case of teenagers long term custody placement is usually the better option than adoption. I cannot specifically quote the law to you right now but I can tell you I address this issue on a daily basis at work. So I can guarantee you I'm correct. (This is florida law) So once again child support cannot be collected from parents whose parental rights have been terminated.

    In the state of California a parent who gives up their parental rights (willingly or unwillingly) is still legally required to pay child support. If the child is adopted by another person then you will no longer be obligated to pay.

    This is the law in most states now. Did everyone else forget that Bill Clinton signed this law into effect.
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    GV70 Posts: 2,918, Reputation: 283
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    #15

    Jul 17, 2007, 01:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by queenbrandissima
    In the state of California a parent who gives up their parental rights (willingly or unwillingly) is still legally required to pay child support. If the child is adopted by another person then you will no longer be obligated to pay.

    This is the law in most states now. Did everyone else forget that Bill Clinton signed this law into effect.
    You are mistaken... This is not the law in most states-this is the law in all states.I am pretty sure that there is no court which will terminate parental rights unless if there is another person who want to adopt the child.
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    Mary Surette Posts: 43, Reputation: 0
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    #16

    Aug 10, 2007, 10:33 PM
    Nya, I'm so glad to find someone who cites my same answer regarding termination of parental rights and child support. See austin82003 Question "Court Ordered Visitation."
    See also kkross2016 "Modifiedchildsupport." Mary
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #17

    Aug 11, 2007, 06:46 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Surette
    Nya, I'm so glad to find someone who cites my same answer regarding termination of parental rights and child support. See austin82003 Question "Court Ordered Visitation."
    See also kkross2016 "Modifiedchildsupport." Mary
    Did you read all of Nya's posts here? The bottom line is as I and others have stated. One cannot terminate rights to get out of child support. Termination of rights is rarely granted by a court and then the vast majority of times its to clear the way for adoption. The few other times, its because the terminated parent repsents a danger to the child. You have not cited the circumstances in your situation, but I am willing to bet there are extenuating circumstances you are not revealing (and I'm not asking you to reveal them).

    I am noticing that you seem to have taken on a mission to post your inaccurate advice in many threads dealing with this issue.
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    Mary Surette Posts: 43, Reputation: 0
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    #18

    Aug 11, 2007, 11:04 AM
    I did not state that one could get out of child support by terminating. I stated that if one were to terminate, child support would cease. Even if it is rare to terminate, it is possible.
    My posts are not inaccurate. Yours are. Reading the previous threads, even in the state of Florida by nya would illustrate this. Once again, your generalizations are inaccurate.
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #19

    Aug 11, 2007, 03:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Surette
    I did not state that one could get out of child support by terminating. I stated that if one were to terminate, child support would cease. Even if it is rare to terminate, it is possible.
    My posts are not inaccurate. Yours are. Reading the previous threads, even in the state of Florida by nya would illustrate this. Once again, your generalizations are inaccurate.
    You really are amazing, you talk about my generalizations when yours are much worse.

    In fact, What you just said "if one were to terminate, child support would cease" is even less true. In the case that nya cited, it wasn't just termination of rights that caused the support to cease. The fact of the matter, in most areas, parental rights and parental responsibility are kept separate. Maybe in Texas that isn't true, though I believe that not a given. But in most areas it is true. So you are the one make generalization based on your own personal experience, not general legal experience or research.
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    Mary Surette Posts: 43, Reputation: 0
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    #20

    Aug 11, 2007, 03:46 PM
    You are taking my answer completely out of context. All the noted issues need to be taken altogether. Your arguments did not note exceptions until I made the Texas argument to you. In several past threads regarding Child support, you GENERALIZED that child support would not cease when rights are terminated. That is a generalization--f or all the states in the union. And you noted this at least six times to different questioners. It was until I made the exceptions clear to you in Texas, where adoption need not accompany termination, did you begin to put in the "most cases," "rarely," "not in most cases," "in most areas," but it is a legal possibility.

    You cite New Jersy attorney and that is great. As an attorney this New Jersey attorney admitted she had not handled termination cases where adoption was not included. Public policy was noted as well.

    Please stop communicating with me. And I can honestly say with all these posts take together that you are patronizing and illogical.

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