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Showme_urmove · Mar 23, 2010, 12:39 AM

Hey I want to know if any one knows the difference between being forgiven and being save? Many people have many explanation on it but I want to hear yours

Larken85 · Mar 23, 2010, 12:48 AM

the difference between being saved and forgiven is simple. Once saved you know god and you trust in him always. Sinning does not revoke that.

Being forgiven is just as it sounds, ask god for forgivness for whatever it is that you have done and he will forgive you. No sin is too great.

this is what I was taught when I was a christain that is. Key word being was.

Showme_urmove · Mar 23, 2010, 12:58 AM

Thanks larken. I was taught that way also through the religion that I was going, but then my bro had told me the something different would you want to hear it?

Larken85 · Mar 23, 2010, 01:53 AM

Sure. I like versing myself in this stuff

belovedgift · Mar 23, 2010, 08:22 AM

Forgiveness is not condemming someone for their actions.
Salvation is being rescued from peril.

Showme_urmove · Mar 23, 2010, 09:51 AM

The bible said "without shading of blood their is no forgiveness" right. That's why people in the old testaments had to go get animals to sacrifice so they can have their sin covered not washed away but covered. Again its "without shading of blood their is no forgiveness" that's why they did that.
and also we need to follow the 10 commandment, but it also says if you follow 9 breaks 1 you broke them all. God knows no man can be perfect and follow it. So God sent his only son to earth to be the final and only sacrifice, to shade his blood so we all can be forgiven. He was our sacrifice so we can have a relationship with God. The new covenants talk about the only way for you to not go to heaven is if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savor. We are all forgiven for our past, presents, and future sins. But we are not saved, Big difference. To be saved is to accept Jesus Christ as your savor. That all make since.
imagine jesus died and shade his blood for you already. So if you keep asking him for forgiveness its like a slap in the face for him. He already had forgiven you when he died in that cross "without shading of blood their is no forgiveness" he did that already he was the last and only sacrifice. IF you want more explanation I have more.

jakester · Mar 23, 2010, 05:40 PM

showme_urmove - what's up, man?

actually, in my understanding of the New Testament, being forgiven for sins works together with being saved. In order to be saved, your sins must be forgiven. I won't quote endless bible verses to support my argument here because I am working primarily with the theological perspective that I have put together in the 9 years that I've been a disciple of Jesus Christ. Let me explain.

The message of Jesus and the Apostles is really a very concise and straightforward message but it is one that needs to be distilled down to its most fundamental level. Let me start by asking a question. Who is worthy enough to receive eternal life? Paul's answer to that would be nobody, “for all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.” We are all morally unworthy to receive eternal life on the basis of our own goodness because we all have been indicted and have become guilty before God. All of us fall hopelessly short of the standard of God and that is moral perfection. If eternal life is going to come to an individual, it will have to come another way.

The way that eternal life comes to a person is by an act of mercy on the part of God. Jesus Christ was the Lamb of God whom God sent into the world as an offering for the sins of mankind. Through that act of Jesus, mankind was now given the opportunity to be forgiven from God. Through Jesus Christ, God will be satisfied that the due penalty for our sins was paid by Jesus. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was a very powerful and visible demonstration of how much God hates sin and how willing he is to forgive.

Now the actual deal that God had made with mankind is this. If someone were to want the mercy that God has offered, a person out of a good and honest heart would simply need to see that he/she was deserving of the death that Jesus died…accept his/her unworthiness to receive eternal life…and as an act of obedience, commit his/her life to God and become a disciple of Jesus Christ; to take his yoke upon him/her and learn about him. But so that you don't see forgiveness as separate from salvation, let me explain that.
The act of forgiveness of sins is so unbelievably final and profound that it is absolutely part of the deal that God is offering. David puts it this way:

“Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit. “

The question is that why would David connect forgiveness of sins with being blessed? Showme, what you have implied in your question is that forgiveness of sins is separate from eternal life. But what would the real benefit or blessing of having my sins forgiven be if I could still go to hell in the end? If the perspective of the biblical authors is that you can have your sins forgiven but still go to hell, why would anyone even see forgiveness of sins as something worth discussing? We could talk about it as a concept but not really see anything meaningful coming from it.

But the perspective of the biblical authors is that the one who has his/her sins forgiven is the one who is blessed? Why? Because the one whose sins God has chosen to forgive is the one that God has chosen to receive eternal life. God doesn't forgive people for their sins and later condemn them. On the contrary, the only ones who receive eternal life (or salvation) are those whom God has chosen to forgive as an act of mercy. For this reason David is right when he says that the person whom God has chosen to forgive is blessed because he/she has been given the right to be a child of God in God's eternal kingdom.

Larken85 · Mar 23, 2010, 05:46 PM

Huh, never looked at it that in depth before. My faith changed when I was young and I never took the time to read the bible. I only know about what I was taught about in Sunday school since I usually slept through church itself lol.

belovedgift · Mar 24, 2010, 09:40 AM

Jesus says in john 3:17 For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world,but that the world through him might be saved. If he doesn't condemn us then who does? Jesus says in john 3:19 and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world,and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. We seem to condemn ourselves by rejecting Jesus because we are ashamed of our sin. So then what is Jesus remedy? He says in John 5:24 truly truly I tell you,he that hears my word and believes on him that sent me,has everlasting life,and will not come into condemnation but has passed from death into life. So it is if we will read and understand what Jesus says and have the courage to believe in god then sin needs no longer be a focus in our life or the shame of sin. It is easy to point out that everyone is a sinner,much harder is it to convince someone that God loves them anyway, especially when the apex of the Christian salvation message is centered around hell. Yet,Jesus salvation message is centered on him.

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 2, 2011, 05:14 PM

In my understanding of the Bible there are two kinds of people on Earth. Those who are going to be saved, and those who are not. Those destined for salvation, already have had all their sins paid for by Christ. At some point in time they will be given a new soul, and all their sins will be forgiven. Those who will remain unsaved have none of their sins paid for. Hence God cannot forgive them, because God operates only according to His law. Though there is much grace for the elect. Based on all of that, I'd say that salvation and forgiveness(from God)are actually one and the same thing.

classyT · Jan 11, 2011, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

In my understanding of the Bible there are two kinds of people on Earth. Those who are going to be saved, and those who are not. Those destined for salvation, already have had all their sins payed for by Christ. At some point in time they will be given a new soul, and all their sins will be forgiven. Those who will remain unsaved have none of their sins payed for. Hence God cannot forgive them, because God operates only according to His law. Though there is much grace for the elect. Based on all of that, I'd say that salvation and forgiveness(from God)are actually one and the same thing.

Interesting thoughts. But that is all they are. Give me the verse for being given a new soul? Book,chapter and verse. We are given the Holy Spirit the very moment we believe... but we keep our own soul. HELLO?

WHOSOEVER will may come... guess that is just another trick up God's sleeve for the world. What I would LOVE to know is what gospel are you reading? And what gospel did Paul preach to UNbelievers? Rightly dividing the Word of truth my little headstrong pal... put your verses in CON text... lest you get CONNED.

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 11, 2011, 07:11 PM

Quoting classyT:
"Interesting thoughts. etc."

You are making the "classic" error of presuming that the New Testament ALONE is the very last word on salvation. And that somehow the Old Testament is obsolete or no longer applicable to this issue. NOT SO. Every statement about salvation in the New Testament is modified or NEEDS TO BE UNDERSTOOD IN LIGHT OF WHAT THE OLD TESTAMENT HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT. To NOT do that is to design or to create a salvation which is entirely NOT Biblical, but man made.

For example Ezekiel 11:19. And Ezekiel 36:26 says " A new heart also will I give you. And a new spirit will I put within you... etc." That salvation plan is the same one that God uses in the New Testament. There is only one plan of salvation. Not one for the Old testament, and a completely different one for the New testament. That is where we differ my little friend. A new heart and a new spirit are simply a another way of saying a new soul.

dwashbur · Jan 11, 2011, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

Quoting classyT:
"Interesting thoughts. etc."

You are making the "classic" error of presuming that the New Testament ALONE is the very last word on salvation. And that somehow the Old Testament is obsolete or no longer applicable to this issue. NOT SO. Every statement about salvation in the New Testament is modified or NEEDS TO BE UNDERSTOOD IN LIGHT OF WHAT THE OLD TESTAMENT HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT. To NOT do that is to design or to create a salvation which is entirely NOT Biblical, but man made.

For example Ezekiel 11:19. And Ezekiel 36:26 says " A new heart also will I give you. And a new spirit will I put within you....etc." That salvation plan is the same one that God uses in the New Testament. There is only one plan of salvation. Not one for the Old testament, and a completely different one for the New testament. That is where we differ my little friend. A new heart and a new spirit are simply a another way of saying a new soul.

First of all, you're wrong about the last sentence. The soul and spirit are two distinct parts of a person (1 Thess 5:23). But more importantly...

Ezekiel wrote during the Babylonian exile, somewhere toward the end of it. He wrote while in Babylon as one of the exiles. So what you're saying is, before he wrote that - no, wait, before he wrote it, scribes copied it, and it was disseminated to all the exiles and anybody else who was interested, nobody could be saved. But I'm sure you'll deny that's what you mean. Honestly, I don't think you have any idea what you actually believe. You certainly don't want to share it if you do.

On a personal note, ClassyT is a devout and intelligent Christian who knows a lot more about the Bible than you ever will, at least if you continue with this attitude. That patronizing tone with "my little friend" was completely uncalled for, and you owe her an apology.

classyT · Jan 12, 2011, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

First of all, you're wrong about the last sentence. The soul and spirit are two distinct parts of a person (1 Thess 5:23). But more importantly...

Ezekiel wrote during the Babylonian exile, somewhere toward the end of it. He wrote while in Babylon as one of the exiles. So what you're saying is, before he wrote that - no, wait, before he wrote it, scribes copied it, and it was disseminated to all the exiles and anybody else who was interested, nobody could be saved. But I'm sure you'll deny that's what you mean. Honestly, I don't think you have any idea what you actually believe. You certainly don't want to share it if you do.

On a personal note, ClassyT is a devout and intelligent Christian who knows a lot more about the Bible than you ever will, at least if you continue with this attitude. That patronizing tone with "my little friend" was completely uncalled for, and you owe her an apology.

Dave, I totally agree with you that he isn't sharing his real beliefs and that soul and spirit are NOT the same thing.

In headstrongs defense... I teasingly called him "my little headstrong pal" he was just doing it back to me. I took NO offense.. thought it was funny. Not everyone gets my personaility at first or even later... lol :)

I agree that ALL scripture is to be read and understood Headstrong. So just tell me what it is that I need to do to be saved according to ALL of the scripture. I'm curious.

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 21, 2011, 10:26 PM

classyT:

First of all thanks for admitting that you started with the "cute" phrases of "endearment."

Next, I'll try and satisfy your "curiosity" about what I believe you can do to get yourself saved.

The simple answer is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Though there is more doctrine related to this issue. But essentially the preceding statement is it.

classyT · Jan 22, 2011, 08:19 AM

Headstrong buddy ol pal,

So what verses to you base your belief on. Use the OT and NT to back it up.

ALSO... how do make this verse in Acts FIT into your belief.

What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved...

Paul answers the question. Was he lying? Shouldn't he have said.. ".not a thing dude..either you are predestinated or you aren't..can't help ya out."
Just saying... ya have to have all scripture worked together none is of a private interpretation ( that is also in the bible)

You don't give me verses.. you never do. Just your thoughts.. back it up give me the word of God.

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 22, 2011, 10:03 AM

Quoting classyT:
back it up give me the word of God.

OK. Here goes another debate, probably. First I will give verses that show that our human faith is work.
1 Thessalonians 1:3 says "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love... "
2 Thessalonians 1:11 says "... the good pleasure of [his] goodness and the work of faith with power."
James 2:20 says "... faith without works is dead."
James 2:26 says "... So faith without works is dead also."
James 2:18 says "Yea a man may say Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew the my faith by my works."

All those references indicate to me absolutely clearly that faith is work by the Bible's own DEFINITION. In my opinion there can be NO DEBATE ON THIS POINT.

Exactly HOW this point refers to my belief of salvation will beseen in the next step. ONCE THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN RESOLVED. There's no point in going further until you concede this point.

classyT · Jan 22, 2011, 10:33 AM

Thanks for the verses.. I shall be looking them up and putting them in context and I will help you out on why you are all screwy in your thinking... ha ha

dwashbur · Jan 22, 2011, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

Thanks for the verses..i shall be looking them up and putting them in context and I will help you out on why you are all screwy in ur thinking....ha ha

You go, girl!!

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 24, 2011, 01:06 PM

Quoting classyT:
Thanks for the verses..i shall be looking them up...

Not that I want to rush you, but... is it possible you're hoping this will just go away if you don't deal with it ? Maybe someone else will step in for you and do the difficult work of thinking through the verses in question. Not that I mind at all, one way or the other. I'm just saying...