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davidpwhite · Nov 22, 2009, 06:50 PM

Hello. I purchased a new-ish home (1 year after it was built) that has a model 625.388170 (or maybe 625.388180 - same manual for both) H2O softener. Until today, I had every reason to believe that all was fine with this unit. I generally do not let the salt level get very far down before refilling and I keep it near maximum.

But I have been a bit lazy about adding salt recently so I checked today and found that it was down much further than I usually allow it to get - 5 out of 8 max on the level markings. While looking, I noticed that there was water in the salt tank. I know that there is supposed to be water in the tank but the online info at WATER TREATMENT FAQs, FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT SOFTENING AND CONDITIONING where at the bottom it says this should be only 2-5 inches high. Today, the water was just at or slightly below the level of the salt. For reference, this would be at least 2 feet above the bottom of the tank.

I thought this odd (or at least unexpected) so I did a bit of research here KENMORE WATER SOFTENER FILTER ANIMATIONS, TROUBLESHOOTING and found that this seems a known situation. I followed the instructions to clean the venturi assembly. This was easy to do and I found nothing that was unexpected - all seemed fine. The last step in this process is to manually trigger a recharge. I did this and it took quite a long time to complete. During this process, the water level in the salt tank went down and out of sight. I cannot say how far down exactly but much lower than it was when I started all this.

At the end of the recharge cycle a rinse occurs and water starts to run. When this happened I watched what was going on and I noted that water was running into the salt tank at this point through the overflow tube/hole. This seemed to cause the water level to fill up to about the point where it was originally.

This seemed odd and I looked to see how it was plumbed. The overflow hose comes out of the overflow hole and tee's into the main drain line for the unit. This then connects to the pressure bleed line from the water heater located right next to the softener. The combined drain line goes through a hole in the side of the house and out to a hose which drains on the ground. I checked this during the rinse and did see water coming out OK. I saw not signs of blockage or restriction.

The diagrams in the manual all show the drain and overflow lines going their separate ways to the drain. They are not shown interconnected like they are on my unit. So I am guessing that when the rinsing occurs, the waste water is finding it much easier to flow back into the salt tank via the overflow tube than it is to go all the way out of the house to the drain and this is what is causing the higher than expected water level.

Nothing has been changed here so I am guessing that things have been this way since installation and I just never noticed due to the high salt level in the tank. So my questions:

1. Is this a satisfactory situation? Or does this lead to inefficiencies in the system? Could this lead to an overflow situation which could cause the floor to get wet?
2. If this is not a satisfactory situation, what is the best action to take? There is no floor drain and I would like to keep the single hole and drain out the wall, if possible.

Thanks for your time and comments.

Added 11/23 @ 9am

I just added two photos to try and clarify the situation. The first shows how the drain and overflow lines from the softener are tee'ed into a single line. I found the install manual and it specifically says NOT to combine these lines. The second photo shows how the combined line from the softener is added to the water heater blow-off line which then exits the house through the wall to simply drain on the ground.

EPMiller · Nov 22, 2009, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by davidpwhite

This seemed odd and I looked to see how it was plumbed. The overflow hose comes out of the overflow hole and tee's into the main drain line for the unit. This then connects to the pressure bleed line from the water heater located right next to the softener. The combined drain line goes through a hole in the side of the house and out to a hose which drains on the ground. I checked this during the rinse and did see water coming out OK. I saw not signs of blockage or restriction.

If I understand your description correctly, unless the softener drain connects to the drain for the water heater blow-off pipe through an air gap, that is not plumbed according to code. Nothing can connect to that blow-off pipe directly.

The diagrams in the manual all show the drain and overflow lines going their separate ways to the drain. They are not shown interconnected like they are on my unit. So I am guessing that when the rinsing occurs, the waste water is finding it much easier to flow back into the salt tank via the overflow tube than it is to go all the way out of the house to the drain and this is what is causing the higher than expected water level.
<snip>
1. Is this a satisfactory situation? Or does this lead to inefficiencies in the system? Could this lead to an overflow situation which could cause the floor to get wet?
2. If this is not a satisfactory situation, what is the best action to take? <snip>

Again, if I understand your description correctly, the backwash drain and the salt reservoir overflow should NOT be connected. I wouldn't be surprised to find some buildup inside the water softener drain lines that are causing the problem. It will only get worse. Probably your best remedy is to call in a real plumber and get this all sorted out and done correctly. I don't know how that 1) got inspected for occupancy in the first place, and 2) got missed in the home inspection when you bought it. The water softener could have been an add-on after the initial occcupancy permit was issued, but your buyers inspection should have found the problems before you became responsible.

dmrlook · Nov 23, 2009, 11:16 AM

As a side issue, if the rinse cycle is draining the water back into the salt tank, then super concentrated hard water is ending up in that tank. This most likely decreases the effectiveness of the water softener overall as that hard water is then used to rinse the resin beads at the next regeneration cycle. Definitely something to avoid.

davidpwhite · Nov 23, 2009, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by dmrlook

As a side issue, if the rinse cycle is draining the water back into the salt tank, then super concentrated hard water is ending up in that tank. This most likely decreases the effectiveness of the water softener overall as that hard water is then used to rinse the resin beads at the next regeneration cycle. Definitely something to avoid.

Thanks for the response. What can I do about this?

dmrlook · Nov 23, 2009, 01:09 PM

Is there a floor drain in the same room as the softener? Typically, the salt tank and the resin tank would each have separate hoses that would run to a floor drain. That is what I would do. Another option would be to place a one-way valve after the overflow leaves the salt tank, allowing only water to leave the tank and not flow backwards. However, I don't know how effective that will be given there may not be enough pressure until the water raises high enough above the overflow to open the valve. I'd opt for two hoses into a floor drain.

davidpwhite · Nov 23, 2009, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by dmrlook

Is there a floor drain in the same room as the softener? Typically, the salt tank and the resin tank would each have separate hoses that would run to a floor drain. That is what i would do. Another option would be to place a one-way valve after the overflow leaves the salt tank, allowing only water to leave the tank and not flow backwards. However, I don't know how effective that will be given there may not be enough pressure until the water raises high enough above the overflow to open the valve. I'd opt for two hoses into a floor drain.

Thanks. I agree with your assessments. However, there is no floor drain anywhere. I think this the reason for the strange setup. Whoever did the install (it turns out to have been a Sears technician), they found an existing drain to the outside of the house in the form of the hot water blow-off line which is soldered copper maybe 3/4". Into this, they put a tee and installed a plastic, threaded to 3/8" barbed fitting. To this fitting, they routed the combined line from the resin and salt tanks. It seems to have been the quick and dirty thing to do. However, the combining of the two lines is expressly prohibited in the install manual.

My real question for you has to do with how to get the water out of the salt tank without running it through the resin tank. You suggested this would be a problem. Perhaps this is moot because I believe this has been a problem for a long time (since installation, actually) and that was in 2006 when the house was built. So the question is, once contaminated with the ultra hard water to which you refer, what should be done to make the unit work well again?

Thanks

dmrlook · Nov 23, 2009, 02:52 PM

OK - I understand now. All you need to do is flush the salt storage tank. In general, it is good practice to periodically (once every few years, but most people do it never) drain all water form that tank (easiest when the salt is almost all gone), take the tank outside, and flush it out with a hose. You would be amazed at the dirt, grime, and rocks you will find at the bottom of the tank. If it is getting to cold for you to do so, you can also just take a hose inside and fill the tank a few times and let the water run out the overflow drain. You will waste some salt in the process, but I expect the majority of the hard water will be flushed out in this manner. Of course, until you fix the backflow issue you have now, flushing the tank is not worth your time as it will just get filled with hard water again.

Note that I don't think you have done any irreparable harm. A good flush out should make it as good as new.

On another note, Resin beads used in water softeners can get gummed up over time. For example, when I moved into my house, the softener was already close to 20 years old. It did not soften very well. I had the option of buying new resin beads. But opted instead for a new softener so I would have a more efficient model and new mechanicals. Bought it online for about $500. It was simple to install and works like a charm. In your particular situation, it sounds like your home and softener is fairly new, so I would not recommend replacing at this time. But it is something to thi9nk about in 15 years :-)

EPMiller · Nov 23, 2009, 07:53 PM

I just saw your pictures. That is WRONG. Correct that drain issue ASAP. Get a plumber if you are not fluent in the requirements of plumbing code. Also I seriously question the backwash running out on the surface of the ground. You won't have anything growing there soon on account of all the salt that is being dumped there. Salt really isn't good even in a sewer, but at least it gets diluted when it gets dumped into some river.

As to the water currently in the salt tank. I know you will not get top quality soft water for a couple of cycles, but just let the system take care of itself until the salt level is down to next to nothing. Then do as dmrlook suggested and rinse out the sediment in the bottom of the tank. Easiest labor, least amount of salt wasted and no added harm done to the system.

davidpwhite · Nov 24, 2009, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by EPMiller

I just saw your pictures. That is WRONG. Correct that drain issue ASAP. Get a plumber if you are not fluent in the requirements of plumbing code. Also I seriously question the backwash running out on the surface of the ground. You won't have anything growing there soon on account of all the salt that is being dumped there. Salt really isn't good even in a sewer, but at least it gets diluted when it gets dumped into some river.

As to the water currently in the salt tank. I know you will not get top quality soft water for a couple of cycles, but just let the system take care of itself until the salt level is down to next to nothing. Then do as dmrlook suggested and rinse out the sediment in the bottom of the tank. Easiest labor, least amount of salt wasted and no added harm done to the system.

Thanks again for your response and thanks to dmrlook too.

I finally reached the Sears water softener department and they confirm what you have said and what is clearly said in the install manual. The sad thing is that Sears themselves did the install. Now I have to rectify things. Oh well...

It is my hope to take the runoff that now spills onto the ground and route it into a nearby downspout where it will feed, along with the rest of the home's runoff, into a large drywell. I hope this will dilute the salt more and preserve the area around the house in better condition. Let me know if you anticipate any issues with this approach. Meanwhile, I will let the salt level go down and will then clean out the tank. Shame these things don't have drain valves on the bottom like a hot water tank. Thanks.

EPMiller · Nov 24, 2009, 03:03 PM

Depending on the type of soil and ground formations where you live a "drywell" if deep enough could pollute underground aquifers. I really doubt that you will have to deal with that though. Don't fret about getting the salt tank cleaned out ASAP. I bet you won't even notice that anything is amiss until then.